Pass Rushers

[captain stone]

What about them do you compare? Curious.

You mean, besides height & weight?

 

[WaterfallJumper]

You mean, besides height & weight?

Yeah. They're pretty different in terms of style, production, level of completion, injury history, etc. I miss stuff all the time, though, so I probably overlooked something, but I never would have equated them.

I'm also interested in what you think are the contributing factors to why Rivers has failed so far. Injury? Size? Technique deficiency? Obviously he's been a disappointment, but I'm a little more optimistic on his future than camp cut. I think he gets one more year.

 

[SBLIII]

Bill's already tried a Christian Miller-type here with Derek Rivers, and that has proven to be a miserable failure.

so it's his fault he suffered a freak injury?

 

[cstjohn17]

Yeah. They're pretty different in terms of style, production, level of completion, injury history, etc. I miss stuff all the time, though, so I probably overlooked something, but I never would have equated them.

I'm also interested in what you think are the contributing factors to why Rivers has failed so far. Injury? Size? Technique deficiency? Obviously he's been a disappointment, but I'm a little more optimistic on his future than camp cut. I think he gets one more year.

To me Rivers is just like a 1,000 other players who were likely the best player at their high school and among the top in the state and then were stars in college but that is not enough. It is damn hard to make it to the NFL and raw physical characteristics at this level are within a narrow band. For example all NFL OLB/DEs are within a certain range for 40 time, bench, height, etc.. The unknown variable is how do players improve a consistent percentage each year, the vast majority can't quite get over the hump. I wish him luck, he may get one chance with the Pats and if he is lucky one more chance after that; then sadly it is over. Just another never was...

Sorry, that was probably a little depressing. As far as small school "try hard" type players, what about Maxx Crosby in round 4 or 5?

 

[p8ryts]

I agree on Polite, Burns, and Winovich. Those are the top edge prospects that I've seen thus far. (Not a fan of Allen, Gary, or Sweat).

Edit: I meant not a fan of Josh Allen. I do like Zach Allen, but he's not a pure edge guy. More of a strong end guy, which is honestly a big need for this team. Could replace John Simon.

The 3 I like not just as pass rushers but as football players was Burns Winovich and Sutton Smith. Smith looks like a defensive Edelman.

 

[miloofcroton]

The 3 I like not just as pass rushers but as football players was Burns Winovich and Sutton Smith. Smith looks like a defensive Edelman.

Ya, I like Smith too actually. DE to ILB is a hard conversion, at least from my arm chair, but I could see that working.

 

[manxman2601]

The thing I like about Sutton Smith is that at the very least he could be a demon special teamer so he has a floor I could be comfortable with regardless of how successful any position change might be.

One thing I know is that in position drills at the combine, Smith’s quickness really stood out.

 

[captain stone]

I'm also interested in what you think are the contributing factors to why Rivers has failed so far. Injury? Size? Technique deficiency? Obviously he's been a disappointment, but I'm a little more optimistic on his future than camp cut. I think he gets one more year.

His size for a 4-3 DE was too light; he could've possibly been ok at 3-4 OLB pre-2012...and his production vs a weaker level of competition obscured his ability (or, in his case, his lack of ability) to translate that success to the NFL.
He definitely will be given this coming season at least to try to figure out what if anything he can do to turn around his career here.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I could see bb taking walker from Georgia on day 2. He has the ability to set the edge and rush the passer. He needs to get stronger and learn better technique, but that is what our coaches are good at.

 

[Patriot Missile]

His size for a 4-3 DE was too light; he could've possibly have been ok at 3-4 OLB pre-2012...and his production vs a weaker level of competition obscured his ability (or, in his case, his lack of ability) to translate that success to the NFL.
He definitely will be given this coming season at least to try to figure out what if anything he can do to turn around his career here.

Still nice to roll the dice on players like that once in awhile. When they pan out the rewards are 4 years worth of good play and minimal cap space.

T Bruschi was a sack demon in college at DE but was considering too small to play the position. Cameron Wake, Zac Thomas as well as many others.

Definitely a make or break year to see how effective he can be in the lineup, never mind break into the starting lineup.

 

[manxman2601]

 

[zimmy]

I still think Derek Rivers can be a good third down sub rusher. He can bend the edge but he doesn't necessarily set it very well. I'm not ready to give up yet

 

[SBLIII]

This guy gets it. Perfect comparison.

 

[manxman2601]

This guy gets it. Perfect comparison.

He’s a huge fan of Tillery

 

[WaterfallJumper]

This guy gets it. Perfect comparison.

I like Tillery, but Jones was 15 pounds heavier and played better against the run. I get a little nervous about Tillery as a year one run defender, although I think with Guy and Pennel on the roster, he could ease into that role. I think his upside is Calais Campbell or maybe even Seymour, but it may take him a year to fill out a bit, widen his base, and improve his technique. If BB thinks he can make the jump, though, then I'd even be willing to trade up if that's what it took to get our guy. He can make a clear impact as a pass rusher.

 

[manxman2601]

Allen’s versatility is why I like him so much and with Bennett already on the roster, there’s absolutely no need to rush Allen in his development early by overloading his reps. He’s a must pick for me outside of the first, particularly if he lasts to that first pick outside of the third round. A draft of:

1. Tillery/Dexter Lawrence
2a (trade up) WR (Samuel, Aj Brown, Harry)
2b. TE (Knox, Warring, Sternberger)
3a. Zach Allen (would accept Omenihu)

Would be a perfect match of need and value to me.

 

[SBLIII]

I don't think we will take Zach Allen. I think we will value others higher at 32 and I don't see him being there at 56,64 or 73.

 

[Snooky97]

I don't think we will take Zach Allen. I think we will value others higher at 32 and I don't see him being there at 56,64 or 73.

The one thing Allen does have over a lot of guys in the draft is the fact you can move him all over the D-Line and he can be effective wherever he lines up. It depends what other teams think of him, as he may fall as teams like flashy guys.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Nobody does as good a job of finding a role for “tweeners” then bb.

I actually think we can get him at 56 since a lot of teams will struggle to understand how to use him.

 

[Snooky97]

Nobody does as good a job of finding a role for “tweeners” then bb.

I actually think we can get him at 56 since a lot of teams will struggle to understand how to use him.

I’m not even sure you can class him as a tweener, but I agree with what you said about teams not knowing how to use him.. for me he’s a patriot player from day one and could even get reps from day one in my opinion

He’s such an under the radar guy. One of the best to talk to about him is @BaconGrundleCandy