Defensive Tackles

[ctpatsfan77]

Flowers, Rivers, and Simon (and Hightower too) figure as quality rush linebackers. More can always be acquired, of course.

When Bentley returns (next season), where do you see him?

 

[miloofcroton]

When Bentley returns (next season), where do you see him?

He's definitely a middle linebacker, unless there is some sort of pass rush ability that he magically develops between now and then.

I don't think there's anything special schematically here that would make him better for this, worse for that kind of thing. His one true weakness would be in a cover 2 scheme where he's asked to get deep in zone, but that's not really on the table right now.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Ya, but we don't need the next Ted Washington to play NT anymore. The game has changed. There are plenty of 3-4 teams with noses that are barely 300 pounds, and granted technique is very important for the position, but what the Pats have shouldn't be considered a huge weakness for the spot.

The key to good defense is to make an opposing offense one dimensional.

When the patriot defense is good against the run, it takes an exceptional game by an opposing qb to beat us, as long as we do not have turnovers.

 

[miloofcroton]

The key to good defense is to make an opposing offense one dimensional.

When the patriot defense is good against the run, it takes an exceptional game by an opposing qb to beat us, as long as we do not have turnovers.

Yes, but there is more than one way to be good against the run. Speed can stop the run as much as strength can. And in today's NFL, where teams can spread you out more than ever, you need to be able to sometimes stop the run with speed.

Also, if I had my druthers and I could successfully make the other team one-dimensional with my defense, I'd rather make them unable to pass. Force them to continuously get small yardage on the ground and slowly eat at my defense. Make passing a living hell.

Being a dominant pass defense is nice because if your entire team is good, you will supplement your defense with a strategic advantage. In other words, if you have a good offense, you can get ahead with a lead, and then the other team will want to pass, but they will have to do it against your vaunted pass defense.

I mentioned a little ways back that the top defenses used a 3-4. Well, that was in general, but let's look at specific stats. How about yards per pass attempt?

2018 NFL Opposition & Defensive Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com

1. Ravens: 5.3 yppa
2. Steelers: 5.6 yppa
3. Bills: 5.6 yppa
4. Bears: 5.7 yppa
5. Texans: 5.9 yppa

That's it for teams under 6 yppa. 4 out of 5 teams use the 3-4.

If you look at last season, it seems like the 'year of the 4-3'. 4 out of the top 5 passing defenses were 4-3 defenses. In 2016, 3 out of 5 were 3-4s. In 2015, again 3 out of 5 were 3-4s. In 2014, again, 3 out of 5 were 3-4s.

So, last year. I'm going to question the success of those 4-3s when it really mattered, and I have a reason why it happened. First, the stats. In the playoffs in 2017, no defense* gave up less than 6 yppa. The Chiefs, with their 3-4, were #1 at 6.29 yppa. In fact, the second to worst passing defense in the 2017 playoffs was the Vikings, who gave up 8.4 yppa despite giving up 5.2 yppa during the regular season, which was second best in the league.

So, why did this happen? As I said earlier, the 4-3 base defense does not provide a team with options. The only solution to be good with a 4-3 is to have tons of pass rusher depth and put out any fire with more talent. You can't pick a different play, confuse the offense, or change alignment. You just get torched if your pass rush talent isn't good on a given day. This is why these 'great' defenses come out flat in the playoffs, and they stay that way.

In contrast, a 3-4 defense always has cards to play. As a Belichick follower, I would think that you would appreciate that.

*I am discarding one outlier game where the Bills gave up 3.2 yppa against the Jags. Blake Bortles, a ****-tier QB with an awesome team around him, met a good defense. He naturally did nothing. Also, the Bills offense was so atrociously bad that the Jaguars never really had anything to keep up with. The numbers are too outside of the distribution to be useful anyways.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Yes, but there is more than one way to be good against the run. Speed can stop the run as much as strength can. And in today's NFL, where teams can spread you out more than ever, you need to be able to sometimes stop the run with speed.

Also, if I had my druthers and I could successfully make the other team one-dimensional with my defense, I'd rather make them unable to pass. Force them to continuously get small yardage on the ground and slowly eat at my defense. Make passing a living hell.

Being a dominant pass defense is nice because if your entire team is good, you will supplement your defense with a strategic advantage. In other words, if you have a good offense, you can get ahead with a lead, and then the other team will want to pass, but they will have to do it against your vaunted pass defense.

I mentioned a little ways back that the top defenses used a 3-4. Well, that was in general, but let's look at specific stats. How about yards per pass attempt?

2018 NFL Opposition & Defensive Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com

1. Ravens: 5.3 yppa
2. Steelers: 5.6 yppa
3. Bills: 5.6 yppa
4. Bears: 5.7 yppa
5. Texans: 5.9 yppa

That's it for teams under 6 yppa. 4 out of 5 teams use the 3-4.

If you look at last season, it seems like the 'year of the 4-3'. 4 out of the top 5 passing defenses were 4-3 defenses. In 2016, 3 out of 5 were 3-4s. In 2015, again 3 out of 5 were 3-4s. In 2014, again, 3 out of 5 were 3-4s.

So, last year. I'm going to question the success of those 4-3s when it really mattered, and I have a reason why it happened. First, the stats. In the playoffs in 2017, no defense* gave up less than 6 yppa. The Chiefs, with their 3-4, were #1 at 6.29 yppa. In fact, the second to worst passing defense in the 2017 playoffs was the Vikings, who gave up 8.4 yppa despite giving up 5.2 yppa during the regular season, which was second best in the league.

So, why did this happen? As I said earlier, the 4-3 base defense does not provide a team with options. The only solution to be good with a 4-3 is to have tons of pass rusher depth and put out any fire with more talent. You can't pick a different play, confuse the offense, or change alignment. You just get torched if your pass rush talent isn't good on a given day. This is why these 'great' defenses come out flat in the playoffs, and they stay that way.

In contrast, a 3-4 defense always has cards to play. As a Belichick follower, I would think that you would appreciate that.

*I am discarding one outlier game where the Bills gave up 3.2 yppa against the Jags. Blake Bortles, a ****-tier QB with an awesome team around him, met a good defense. He naturally did nothing. Also, the Bills offense was so atrociously bad that the Jaguars never really had anything to keep up with. The numbers are too outside of the distribution to be useful anyways.

You have some interesting points, but I still believe that whoever controls the line usually wins!

We need better and stronger DT play than brown and Shelton to get this done.

Brown is to weak and Shelton plays too high.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

More of a one gapper than a Bb two gapper.

The player on the Miami defense that pops on tape is the corner. Micheal Johnson or Jackson or something like that.[/QUOTE

He's controlled the los plenty for the type of player he is.

The best players today make plays at/behind the los. It's not about 330+ linemen who can clog the middle. Lot more to playing defense than "2 gapping" & "setting the edge". Terms thrown around but not understood.

His background will play a role in his eval & the fact that he's a one year wonder so far.


And it's Michael Jackson lol

 

[miloofcroton]

You have some interesting points, but I still believe that whoever controls the line usually wins!

We need better and stronger DT play than brown and Shelton to get this done.

Brown is to weak and Shelton plays too high.

I'm not saying these guys are great players. How are Brown and Shelton not too weak for a 4-3 base, but they're too weak for a 3-4 base? You don't have to run different play concepts.

Not to mention, penetration of the line is yet another way of 'controlling the line of scrimmage'. It doesn't have to just be whether or not you have a half man, half polar bear at nose tackle.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Week 14 rankings:

First let me say that this is the deepest group of defensive tackles I have seen in a few years. I have 9 first round grades.

1.) Oliver of Houston. Pure one gapper and ten 10 pick.

2.) q Williams of Alabama. Two gapper who plays the run well and puts all kinds of pressure on qb’s on pass plays. Top 10 pick.

3.) Davis of Alabama. Two gapper with incredible size and strength. Much better as a run defender than a pass rusher. Top 20 pick.

4.) brown of auburn. More of a one gapper, but can two gap. Plays the run really well and can get in the backfield on pass plays. Mid to Late first round grade.

5.) Simmons of miss state. More of a three technique. Not the best run defender, but gets off the ball quick on pass plays and causes problems if not double teamed, mid to late first round grade.

6.) Lawrence of Clemson. Two gapper. Monster size and excellent run defender. Has some pass rush ability, but just a bull rusher. Mid to Late first round pick who should be the patriots first round pick, if de sweat of miss state is off the board.

7.) Tillery of Notre Dane. Pure one gapper. Caused all kinds of havoc on pass plays, but needs more work on stopping the run. Mid to Late first

8.) Wilkins of Clemson. One gapper, three technique guy. Excellent pass rusher, but I question the functional strength which shows up on tape on run plays. Mid to late first round pick.

9.) Jones of Ohio state. Pure one gapper. Better at pass rushing, needs lots of help as a run defender. Late first or early second round pick.