2018 Training Camp Thread - Day 14* (8/14/18)

[RobertWeathers]

Patterson still catching Balls with CB's draped over him no separation if you can't gain separation it's going to be tough sledging in this league. CB's who use their hands well and most are taught to will just negate Patterson more times than not. The news out of Foxboro is that Patterson haven't connected with Brady or been with ones since the first week of Preseason.

Patterson has 163 career catches. I think hes proven he can catch a ball at the NFL level.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

I wanna see decker, Dorsett, and maybe britt tonight if he can give it a go. I just wanna see what these guys will bring to the tablet.

 

[Kontradiction]

I wanna see decker, Dorsett, and maybe britt tonight if he can give it a go. I just wanna see what these guys will bring to the tablet.

Britt hasn’t practiced so it’s highly doubtful he’ll go. He may even be an IR candidate to start the year.

 

[JackBauer]

I'd say in general this team has top end talent - 8 straight AFCC appearances and three SB appearances in four years would suggest this is not a flash in the pan team with average or below talent. Teams can only pay so many top guys.

Who? Brady, Gronk, Edelman, White, Andrews, Hightower, McCourty, Gilmore, Chung, Slater, Gostkowski, Allen

The coaching staff certainly has top end talent - Belichick, Scarnecchia and McDaniels are arguably the best at their jobs in the NFL.

But so what? Belichick correctly points out, particularly in the salary cap era, "We're building a team, not collecting talent." If you asked the question, which teams in general have the best depth players, the Patriots are in the top three. When guys like Eric Decker, Jason McCourty, Vince Valentine, Deatrich Wise, Kenny Britt, Duron Harmon, Mike Gillislee, and Danny Shelton are on your second team or may get cut because they're being challenged by less heralded players, the depth is good.

I don't disagree. I do think they're playing with fire at WR and LB. I see no reason why this team won't compete for the SB again, and their success will likely be dependent once again on avoiding/withstanding injuries at key positions.

 

[JackBauer]

Tom Brady.

If we're judging talent to be "top end", I would say...

1. Offense: Brady, Gronk, Edelman (best "slot" receiver in the league [though he often lines up outside]), Trent Brown.
2. Defense: Gilmore, Hightower, McCourty.
3. ST: Gost.

Defensively, Wise could make that jump to "top end" talent this year depending on how his second year in the league goes. Maybe you could make the argument for Flowers as well although, to this point, he's seemed to be a better complimentary piece. I would suppose that our definitions of "top end" talent might differ, but I would never list White, Andrews, Chung, Slater, or Allen on that list. Those are reaches. Furthermore, even without a lot of "top end" talent elsewhere, the GOAT has traditionally been able to cover up personnel weaknesses with his play.

I would argue that Cannon is a top end RT...when he's on the field. Which, unfortunately, is increasingly seldom.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't disagree. I do think they're playing with fire at WR and LB. I see no reason why this team won't compete for the SB again, and their success will likely be dependent once again on avoiding/withstanding injuries at key positions.

When you consider that 80% of the time we only use 2 LBs the LB depth takes on a different light.
First of all what free agent would come to a team that plays 4-2 nickel base and has Hightower and Van Noy?
As far as depth, they added 2 draft choices and also have Flowers and Roberts.
For backup lbs that’s not a bad group.
If you try to view them as a 3 LB defense it looks thin, but that’s not what they are.

At WR they cast a wide net over who will complement Edelman and Hogan. It’s hard for me to believe that out of all the veterans competing, with their track records none of them can be an effective WR3 (which equals target 5) and a wr4 who can not hurt the team if he comes in in a pinch.
I think people are judging these veteran WRs on a scale of being a star when really all they are going to be are complementary pieces.

 

[JackBauer]

When you consider that 80% of the time we only use 2 LBs the LB depth takes on a different light.
First of all what free agent would come to a team that plays 4-2 nickel base and has Hightower and Van Noy?
As far as depth, they added 2 draft choices and also have Flowers and Roberts.
For backup lbs that’s not a bad group.
If you try to view them as a 3 LB defense it looks thin, but that’s not what they are.

At WR they cast a wide net over who will complement Edelman and Hogan. It’s hard for me to believe that out of all the veterans competing, with their track records none of them can be an effective WR3 (which equals target 5) and a wr4 who can not hurt the team if he comes in in a pinch.
I think people are judging these veteran WRs on a scale of being a star when really all they are going to be are complementary pieces.

If Hightower misses time, which he often does, it instantly becomes a lousy group. I'm not that high on Van Noy and neither Roberts nor Flowers inspire confidence. I'm hoping Bentley can step up.

If Edelman misses time, which he often does (and, in fact, will), it instantly becomes a lousy group. Britt can't seem to get on the field, Decker is average at best.

 

[Ring 6]

If Hightower misses time, which he often does, it instantly becomes a lousy group. I'm not that high on Van Noy and neither Roberts nor Flowers inspire confidence. I'm hoping Bentley can step up.

If Edelman misses time, which he often does (and, in fact, will), it instantly becomes a lousy group. Britt can't seem to get on the field, Decker is average at best.

Before being injured last year Hightower played in 85% of his career games. I’m not saying he wouldn’t be missed but nfl teams just don’t have great players sitting around in backup roles.

As far as WR I think we will be fine. It’s an experienced group with varied skill sets and some history of success in the league.
Again for WR3,wr4,wr5 esp when your TE is your top weapon what teams have more?

 

[JackBauer]

Before being injured last year Hightower played in 85% of his career games. I’m not saying he wouldn’t be missed but nfl teams just don’t have great players sitting around in backup roles.

As far as WR I think we will be fine. It’s an experienced group with varied skill sets and some history of success in the league.
Again for WR3,wr4,wr5 esp when your TE is your top weapon what teams have more?

Honestly, I'd have to look.

I would imagine there aren't that many Superbowl contenders with:

1. WR1 coming off ACL injury, serving five-game suspension
2. Average WR2

who are also suspect from 3-5, but, again, I'd have to look at the rosters.

 

[Ring 6]

Honestly, I'd have to look.

I would imagine there aren't that many Superbowl contenders with:

1. WR1 coming off ACL injury, serving five-game suspension
2. Average WR2

who are also suspect from 3-5, but, again, I'd have to look at the rosters.

None have gronk or white either and most 3-5 WR are suspect in one way or another.

 

[luuked]

Made it up? Really? Here is Patterson making that statement: Cordarrelle Patterson: Bill Belichick told me 'we'll make you the player you should be'

He says he was paraphrasing but he wasn't making it up. They way he talked about it is pretty credible to me.

He's working on route running and part of that is to get off the line quicker, which he worked on for two months. We'll see and you may wind up right, but I think there is reason for optimism.

And I gave you a link to Perry saying that was never said. I will go with an extremely reputable source over a player who tries to put himself into the news cycle but suit yourself.

Fingers crossed for him to suddenly being able to play WR. But if nobody in his previous teams was able to teach it to him them chances are low that O'Shea and Josh will be able to. It is not like route running or fighting press coverage are skills that we have some voodoo on. The practice for those fundamentals is pretty much everywhere the same across the league.

He is what he is by now and thats fine enough. There are enough ways to creatively use him that dont require the above-mentioned skills. And if he can give us something in the receiving game then even better.

 

[BTTA]

The WR debate seems to come down to half full/empty.

Half full: JE is an excellent NFL receiver and Hogan is a solid #2. There are some other very talented guys who have never quite optimized that talent and are now in the hands of the NFL's best coaching staff. One of them is probably going to emerge as an excellent #3. And with the GOAT TE, Hollister emerging, and very good RB receivers, and Brady, that's a good situation to be in.

Half empty: The likelihood of having JE and Hogan for 32 games combined is 0%, and 24 games is 50/50. Hogan is fragile, and JE is coming off a big injury and officially old for an NFL receiver. The candidates for #3 are available to the Pats because they've had their chance to emerge and didn't succeed; let's not be silly about what the coaching staff can do with them. The topic is WR's, it isn't the passing game, so keep the TE's, QB, and RB's out of the conversation, please.

 

[jah]

The WR debate seems to come down to half full/empty.

Half full: JE is an excellent NFL receiver and Hogan is a solid #2. There are some other very talented guys who have never quite optimized that talent and are now in the hands of the NFL's best coaching staff. One of them is probably going to emerge as an excellent #3. And with the GOAT TE, Hollister emerging, and very good RB receivers, and Brady, that's a good situation to be in.

Half empty: The likelihood of having JE and Hogan for 32 games combined is 0%, and 24 games is 50/50. Hogan is fragile, and JE is coming off a big injury and officially old for an NFL receiver. The candidates for #3 are available to the Pats because they've had their chance to emerge and didn't succeed; let's not be silly about what the coaching staff can do with them. The topic is WR's, it isn't the passing game, so keep the TE's, QB, and RB's out of the conversation, please.

Subtle jab at a dumb post I didn't have the energy to call out yesterday. I like it.

 

[captain stone]

Tom Brady.

If we're judging talent to be "top end", I would say...

1. Offense: Brady, Gronk, Edelman (best "slot" receiver in the league [though he often lines up outside]), Trent Brown.
2. Defense: Gilmore, Hightower, McCourty.
3. ST: Gost.

Defensively, Wise could make that jump to "top end" talent this year depending on how his second year in the league goes. Maybe you could make the argument for Flowers as well although, to this point, he's seemed to be a better complimentary piece. I would suppose that our definitions of "top end" talent might differ, but I would never list White, Andrews, Chung, Slater, or Allen on that list. Those are reaches. Furthermore, even without a lot of "top end" talent elsewhere, the GOAT has traditionally been able to cover up personnel weaknesses with his play.

Offense: same, though I would not yet place Trent Brown in the Top-End category until he has to protect Brady during the regular season; the Jacksonville game will be a Huge test for him.

I would've placed Cannon as a Top-End RT, but he is now officially Unreliable, likely for good.

Mason would be another candidate were it not for the whole pass-protection thingy.

Defense: McCourty - either of them - belongs nowhere near any Top-End list. Tre Flowers, however, does.

ST: nobody.

 

[Ring 6]

The WR debate seems to come down to half full/empty.

Half full: JE is an excellent NFL receiver and Hogan is a solid #2. There are some other very talented guys who have never quite optimized that talent and are now in the hands of the NFL's best coaching staff. One of them is probably going to emerge as an excellent #3. And with the GOAT TE, Hollister emerging, and very good RB receivers, and Brady, that's a good situation to be in.

Half empty: The likelihood of having JE and Hogan for 32 games combined is 0%, and 24 games is 50/50. Hogan is fragile, and JE is coming off a big injury and officially old for an NFL receiver. The candidates for #3 are available to the Pats because they've had their chance to emerge and didn't succeed; let's not be silly about what the coaching staff can do with them. The topic is WR's, it isn't the passing game, so keep the TE's, QB, and RB's out of the conversation, please.

Why wouldn’t you consider the WR position in context with the QB, RBs and TE?

By having Brady the talent level at WR is less important because he will do a better job getting the ball to an average than other QBs would to an above average one.
Gronk, white and Burkhead being part of the offense reduces the pressure and reliance on WR, particularly the WR3 and Wr4.
Some people feel Hollister will cause us to go back to a 2 TE base (sans murdering) which would dramatically reduce the need and reliance on WR3 and almost make WR4 a spectator.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Hogan is fragile,.

I love it how as fans we say a player is fragile when a player gets hurt in 2017 and misses time even though from 2012 to 2016 he played in 63 of 64 possible games.

 

[Ring 6]

I love it how as fans we say a player is fragile when a player gets hurt in 2017 and misses time even though from 2012 to 2016 he played in 63 of 64 possible games.

And his injury was a separated shoulder from a hit, as if that indicates injury prone.

 

[captain stone]

Why wouldn’t you consider the WR position in context with the QB, RBs and TE?

Because it is the WR position as a whole that is being considered.

No matter the formations, and the # of WRs in them, that are being used during the course of a game, at least 5 WRs will be carried on the 53. And thus far there are only 2 of them - Hogan & Patterson - that are virtually guaranteed a spot. The rest haven't done a damn thing to deserve any of the others.

 

[Ring 6]

And I gave you a link to Perry saying that was never said. I will go with an extremely reputable source over a player who tries to put himself into the news cycle but suit yourself.

Not sure I agree with this. 2 people were involved in the conversation and one relates what was said.
A person who wasn’t involved in the conversation says it never happened.
For him to know that, and be correct Bill Belichick would have had to sit down privately with Perry and tell him his player was lying. I cannot fathom that being remotely possible.

 

[Ring 6]

Because it is the WR position as a whole that is being considered.

No matter the formations, and the # of WRs in them, that are being used during the course of a game, at least 5 WRs will be carried on the 53. And thus far there are only 2 of them - Hogan & Patterson - that are virtually guaranteed a spot. The rest haven't done a damn thing to deserve any of the others.

But it is the NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS WR position so what it needs to be or will be is greatly affected by the rest of the unit.
We are talking about winning games not debates about who is more talented.

Decker has multiple 1000 yard seasons.
Britt had one 2 years ago and is a 9 year veteran who was deserving of making a team 9 years in a row.
Dorsett has speed, can block and could fill a role.
Pattteson is useful as a gadget player and returner. To say he doesn’t belong on an NFL roster is idiotic.