Lebron James and NBA Discussion!

[rochrist]

No you should stop being a homer. Anywhere but a Boston sports board and insinuating that either Garnett or McHale are better than any of Wilt, Magic, Kareem, West, or Shaq gets you laughed out of the discussion. There’s a lot of people who would put Kareem/Magic/Wilt ahead of Bird as well, but that’s at least a debate you can have.

Yeah yeah, The point is, you put Wilt, Magic, Kareem, West and Shaq behind people you saw last week because you apparently never saw a basketball game before 2010.

 

[maust]

Yeah yeah, The point is, you put Wilt, Magic, Kareem, West and Shaq behind people you saw last week because you apparently never saw a basketball game before 2010.

Very true but in the interest of fairness there's always a huge recency bias attached to supposed 'all time' lists.

 

[TB_Helmet]

I'm having trouble putting these two points together. It looks like you are arguing both sides.

You should learn about basketball.

(in response to):

After Bird you could literally argue every single Lakers All Time Team member is better.

Magic/Kareem/Wilt/Kobe/Lebron are all better than Garnett or McHale. And I know we are all from Boston but that much shouldn't even be controversial.

but then:

Yeah yeah, The point is, you put Wilt, Magic, Kareem, West and Shaq behind people you saw last week because you apparently never saw a basketball game before 2010.

 

[lancerman]

Yeah yeah, The point is, you put Wilt, Magic, Kareem, West and Shaq behind people you saw last week because you apparently never saw a basketball game before 2010.

Dude players who were there wouldn't rank McHale over them and you know it. And you know if you weren't on a Boston sports board you wouldn't be able to get away with arguing this point because it's so asinine.

Every SINGLE one of them is ahead of McHale in points. Every single one of them is WAY ahead of McHale in Assists, McHale is actually 5th from the bottom in assists of all the players on the top 50 list. All of them but Magic and West are ahead of him in rebounds.

Nobody would ever argue that. You're just being contrarian for the sake of it and to try to sound cool.

 

[rochrist]

I'm having trouble putting these two points together. It looks like you are arguing both sides.



(in response to):



but then:

I know how good all of those players are. The problem is, he hasn't got a freaking clue about how good the all time Cs players were. McHale is the greatest low post power forward to ever play the game. He was literally unstoppable until he'd ruined his ankle. But because the Cs played team basketball /always/ he hasn't got a clue. Because he does nothing but look at raw stats. He hasn't got a clue about the rule changes and how soft they've made the game for LeBron.

 

[rochrist]

Dude players who were there wouldn't rank McHale over them and you know it. And you know if you weren't on a Boston sports board you wouldn't be able to get away with arguing this point because it's so asinine.

Every SINGLE one of them is ahead of McHale in points. Every single one of them is WAY ahead of McHale in Assists, McHale is actually 5th from the bottom in assists of all the players on the top 50 list. All of them but Magic and West are ahead of him in rebounds.

Nobody would ever argue that. You're just being contrarian for the sake of it and to try to sound cool.

Nobody who played against him.

You know nothing about basketball before 2010.

 

[lancerman]

Very true but in the interest of fairness there's always a huge recency bias attached to supposed 'all time' lists.

Every player we are talking about besides Shaq (the others being Kareem/Magic/Wilt/West vs McHale) all had the prime of their careers in the 80's or earlier. In fact McHale and Garnett would benefit the most from recency bias. Again this is something that wouldn't even be a discussion anywhere else.

 

[lancerman]

I know how good all of those players are. The problem is, he hasn't got a freaking clue about how good the all time Cs players were. McHale is the greatest low post power forward to ever play the game. He was literally unstoppable until he'd ruined his ankle. But because the Cs played team basketball /always/ he hasn't got a clue. Because he does nothing but look at raw stats. He hasn't got a clue about the rule changes and how soft they've made the game for LeBron.

This has nothing to do with Lebron. You are literally just trying argue a point that virtually nobody would agree with for the sake of arguing.

 

[Deus Irae]

Every player we are talking about besides Shaq (the others being Kareem/Magic/Wilt/West vs McHale) all had the prime of their careers in the 80's or earlier. In fact McHale and Garnett would benefit the most from recency bias. Again this is something that wouldn't even be a discussion anywhere else.

You don't know basketball. Stop pretending you do. It's painful to watch. I don't know anything about driving 18 wheelers. so, when the topic comes up, I keep my mouth shut and try to learn. Try something like that.

 

[lancerman]

Nobody who played against him.

You know nothing about basketball before 2010.

Are you 70 years old. Because if your not you should shut the hell up about Russell or Wilt if you want to go down that route.

 

[fnordcircle]

Very true but in the interest of fairness there's always a huge recency bias attached to supposed 'all time' lists.

Also to be fair today's professional athletes are the product of a time where the quality of sport science far outpaces that of yesteryear for both physical and mental training/prep.

So in a lot of ways it makes what people like Bo Jackson or Bill Russell did all the more impressive but at the same time it also means that they wouldn't stand out as much, if at all, if they were time traveled into modern day.

So with these top 10 lists you have some people looking at all pros irrespective of their era and yeah, a 6'8" 265lb Lebron is going probably going to mop the court with guys from the 90s and earlier. But then you have some people wanting to judge Jim Brown relative to the time in which he played when he was an absolute monster.

I don't think you can chalk it all up to recency bias, though. I'm not trying to take anything away from Larry Bird, for instance, but he wouldn't be considered an all time great if he was just coming out of college now.

 

[lancerman]

You don't know basketball. Stop pretending you do. It's painful to watch.

Then say right now that you think McHale or Garnett is better than one of Shaq, Wilt, Magic, West, or Kareem. Otherwise there was no reason to post that and you are confirming yourself as a troll. Either take part in the discussion or don't.

Also how old are you

 

[TB_Helmet]

I know how good all of those players are. The problem is, he hasn't got a freaking clue about how good the all time Cs players were. McHale is the greatest low post power forward to ever play the game. He was literally unstoppable until he'd ruined his ankle. But because the Cs played team basketball /always/ he hasn't got a clue. Because he does nothing but look at raw stats. He hasn't got a clue about the rule changes and how soft they've made the game for LeBron.

OK I think I misinterpreted one of your posts, never mind.

With respect to the debate at hand, I'm 'only' 38 and didn't see enough of those guys live to have an informed opinion. But FWIW, Bill Simmons has them ranked as follows all-time:

Kareem: 3
Magic: 4
Bird: 5
Kobe: 8
West: 9
McHale: 35

Bill Simmons Hall of Fame Pyramid | Basketball-Reference.com

This list is from years back and he's since moved LeBron to 2, so bump all those guys down 1.

Now, a lot of people don't like Simmons, sometimes for valid reasons and sometimes not, but say what you will, he has done a LOT of research on this topic, and he's also a GIGANTIC Celtics homer. I think it's pretty telling that he puts McHale 35.

I'm also a little unsure exactly what you guys are arguing about so I'll just leave it at that. I like that list in general though, it's a good frame of reference for discussion.

 

[lancerman]

OK I think I misinterpreted one of your posts, never mind.

With respect to the debate at hand, I'm 'only' 38 and didn't see enough of those guys live to have an informed opinion. But FWIW, Bill Simmons has them ranked as follows all-time:

Kareem: 3
Magic: 4
Bird: 5
Kobe: 8
West: 9
McHale: 35

Bill Simmons Hall of Fame Pyramid | Basketball-Reference.com

This list is from years back and he's since moved LeBron to 2, so bump all those guys down 1.

Now, a lot of people don't like Simmons, sometimes for valid reasons and sometimes not, but say what you will, he has done a LOT of research on this topic, and he's also a GIGANTIC Celtics homer. I think it's pretty telling that he puts McHale 35.

I'm also a little unsure exactly what you guys are arguing about so I'll just leave it at that. I like that list in general though, it's a good frame of reference for discussion.

It's really not worth the time. He's a Celtic so they are going to talk in vague generalities that they can't back up by any real metrics and rest on the fact that most of this forum is going to be averse to critiquing any legendary Boston sports figures. McHale is easily one of the best power forwards of all time and possibly had the best season ever for a power forward. He's undoubtedly earned his status as one of the all time greats to play this game and is one of the greatest Celtics EVER. PERIOD. Just like he's one of the best to play his position ever. period.

He's just not better than those guys.

 

[Deus Irae]

Then say right now that you think McHale or Garnett is better than one of Shaq, Wilt, Magic, West, or Kareem. Otherwise there was no reason to post that and you are confirming yourself as a troll. Either take part in the discussion or don't.

I was taking part in the discussion. I was just being sensible, unlike yourself. Here's a reality check for you. since you're ranking players regardless of career phase:

Boston Centers

Russell
Shaq
Cowens
Parrish
Walton
Garnett

That's better than what the Lakers can put forward,. The rest I'll leave for others to deal with.

Also how old are you

None of your business.

 

[lancerman]

I was taking part in the discussion. I was just being sensible, unlike yourself. Here's a reality check for you. since you're ranking players regardless of career phase:

Boston Centers

Russell
Shaq
Cowens
Parrish
Walton
Garnett

That's better than what the Lakers can put forward,. The rest I'll leave for others to deal with.




None of your business.

Oh so you're going to completely ignore the discussion we were having that you felt sooooo compelled to butt in on to insult me? Funny how that works. So you're not going to say that you think McHale is better than any of them?

Funny how you also attempted to counter me with something I never argued. Yeah the Celtics probably have the best stable of Center's in NBA history. Good nobody disputed that. You want to field a starting 5 of all Centers?

 

[Deus Irae]

I think it's pretty telling that he puts McHale 35.

Not really. Without ranking them, this is what you're looking at for the top power forwards of all time.

McHale
Malone
Duncan
Nowitzki
Barkley
Hayes
Pettit
Garnett (I put him in center in an earlier post, because the thread seemed to call for it, but Garnett's a PF.)


So when you're slotting a "Best team", you have to take a more holistic approach than just loading up on one position. The Lakers and Celtics have both had tremendous players all across the squad, and any comparison of the two teams is one where worthy arguments can be made in both directions.

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh so you're going to completely ignore the discussion we were having that you felt sooooo compelled to butt in on to insult me? Funny how that works. So you're not going to say that you think McHale is better than any of them?

Funny how you also attempted to counter me with something I never argued. Yeah the Celtics probably have the best stable of Center's in NBA history. Good nobody disputed that. You want to field a starting 5 of all Centers?

I wasn't ignoring the discussion. As for fielding a starting 5 of all Centers, you are the one who was throwing out Shaq, Wilt and Kareem.

 

[chasa]

where is greg odom in all of these discussions?

 

[lancerman]

I wasn't ignoring the discussion. As for fielding a starting 5 of all Centers, you are the one who was throwing out Shaq, Wilt and Kareem.

You completely ignored the discussion that was going on for quite a bit to get your spots in, but whatever.

We were arguing all time teams. The Lakers overall have someone that many would argue is the best player of the 60's (Wilt, yeah we can argue Russell is better but Wilt is at worst two), 70's (Kareem), 80's (Magic, yeah we can argue Bird, but Magic is at worst two), 2000's (Kobe) and now 2010's (Lebron) and you can easily argue Shaq was the best player of the late 90's post Jordan and early 2000's pre Kobe emerging.