Garcia cut!

[supafly]

FWIW the Pats did not trade a 3rd for Brown. They traded their late 3rd (95) for Brown and a high 5th (143) so the real cost was dropping 48 draft spots. The misconception that they traded a 3rd straight up for Brown has just been repeated so much in such a short time that it's become accepted as fact.

Yes, I should have made myself clearer and included the fact about the 5th rounder. Thank you for the reminder. At any rate, I still don’t think that this is quite as cheap as the poster implied, and I’m not sure that there was much mystery surrounding his circumstances.

Another thing that has been repeated a lot around here is the idea that Brown is some type of talent at his position. Actually, this is believed by so many that they have not only penciled him in at RT, but have somehow moved him over to LT, which seems awfully premature to me. As I said, fingers crossed that he can recover from his ailment, shed some weight, and compete for a spot on the 53 man roster. His size alone brings him great potential, but he’s not exactly the lock to make the roster that some are projecting, either.

 

[maineman209]

A 3rd round draft pick is “cheap?”

Not sure about the “mystery,” but his (positive) body of work consists of one full NFL season where he made it as a 7th round draft pick in 2016, and a comment from Von Miller about how he’s got a promising future due to size and arm length, which occurred after a joint practice. Miller went on to say that he’s probably the best RT that he’s faced and that he’s got the potential to be a top 5 tackle, overall. That said, Von Miller has also gone on record many times praising the talent of Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch, so I’m not sure why any of us actually give a damn about his evaluations.

It was widely reported that the 49’ers were unhappy with his weight management issues and he’s coming off a season where he was placed on IR due to a shoulder injury that he’s still recovering from. The 49’ers were in a pretty good situation, cap wise, when they made the decision to trade him, so obviously they don’t agree with the talent assessment here, or felt that a 3rd rounder was too good to pass up. Either way, I’m not as sure as you are that he was cheap.

Fingers crossed that he heals up and competes well in TC. He’s got some nice size to him.

Here's what I can tell you about Brown>

He's 2.5" taller and +/- 50 lbs heavier than Waddle, and yet put up slightly better athletic testing numbers across the board at his Combine than Waddle did.

One of the guys on Twitter who regularly breaks down tape (Lazar, Baldinger, ... I forget who it was) was skeptical of Von Miller's praise for Brown and decided to take a look for himself.

Brown apparently has pretty good overall footwork and balance, especially for a guy his size. He doesn't get "tall" or lunge very often, and he mirrors much better than one might expect. He has a devastating punch (power AND timing), even one-handed, and often defeats edge-rushers simply by knocking them off-balance, repeatedly. However, he sometimes screws up the timing when trying to do a left-right combo punch, and edge-rushers who study tape can bait him into this and exploit it. Brown can defeat a variety of rush moves (bull rushes don't get anywhere) and is better than one might expect against speed, although he can be defeated by certain combo moves.

In the run game (the weakest part of his game), he's never going to be the guy who's regularly leading the charge downfield through the second level, but he's capable of sealing the edge - although not consistent. This is partly due to his footwork when moving forward, and partly due to inconsistent awareness.

The most important positive takeaway, from the analyst's POV, was that Brown has made steady and significant improvement over the past three seasons, starting from an extremely raw state.

My feeling is that Scar preferred Brown over any of the OTs who were available in the draft, possibly because there's already a good based to work from and an evident willingness to improve.

As to the RT v. LT thing, I have no idea. However, it's somewhat rare to find a guy who can perform equally well on either end due to the "handedness" thing.

 

[supafly]

Here's what I can tell you about Brown>

He's 2.5" taller and +/- 50 lbs heavier than Waddle, and yet put up slightly better athletic testing numbers across the board at his Combine than Waddle did.

One of the guys on Twitter who regularly breaks down tape (Lazar, Baldinger, ... I forget who it was) was skeptical of Von Miller's praise for Brown and decided to take a look for himself.

Brown apparently has pretty good overall footwork and balance, especially for a guy his size. He doesn't get "tall" or lunge very often, and he mirrors much better than one might expect. He has a devastating punch (power AND timing), even one-handed, and often defeats edge-rushers simply by knocking them off-balance, repeatedly. However, he sometimes screws up the timing when trying to do a left-right combo punch, and edge-rushers who study tape can bait him into this and exploit it. Brown can defeat a variety of rush moves (bull rushes don't get anywhere) and is better than one might expect against speed, although he can be defeated by certain combo moves.

In the run game (the weakest part of his game), he's never going to be the guy who's regularly leading the charge downfield through the second level, but he's capable of sealing the edge - although not consistent. This is partly due to his footwork when moving forward, and partly due to inconsistent awareness.

The most important positive takeaway, from the analyst's POV, was that Brown has made steady and significant improvement over the past three seasons, starting from an extremely raw state.

My feeling is that Scar preferred Brown over any of the OTs who were available in the draft, possibly because there's already a good based to work from and an evident willingness to improve.

As to the RT v. LT thing, I have no idea. However, it's somewhat rare to find a guy who can perform equally well on either end due to the "handedness" thing.

Good stuff. I suppose the reasons why I am a bit more reserved than most are the facts that 1) he’s struggled with his weight, 2) he’s still recovering from an injury, although I’m assuming that they felt comfortable enough to take a chance or the trade and physical wouldn’t have gone through, and 3) if he’s really that big, quick, etc, and has progressed so much then why didn’t SF keep him for at least the 2018 season where he was still under a cheap contract?

Better yet, if his measureables were so good why wasn’t he drafted until the 7th round? Not meaning to be pessimistic, but these are fair and legitimate questions. From what I understand, the 49’ers were quite unhappy with him and he has a very limited sample size of only playing in one full season back in 2016. I am skeptical that we can predict him at LT (Scar claims Cannon isn’t moving) with the information that we currently have now. Perhaps a good showing in TC + the preseason will help to justify all of the hype.

 

[maineman209]

Good stuff. I suppose the reasons why I am a bit more reserved than most are the facts that 1) he’s struggled with his weight, 2) he’s still recovering from an injury, although I’m assuming that they felt comfortable enough to take a chance or the trade and physical wouldn’t have gone through, and 3) if he’s really that big, quick, etc, and has progressed so much then why didn’t SF keep him for at least the 2018 season where he was still under a cheap contract?

Better yet, if his measureables were so good why wasn’t he drafted until the 7th round? Not meaning to be pessimistic, but these are fair and legitimate questions. From what I understand, the 49’ers were quite unhappy with him and he has a very limited sample size of only playing in one full season back in 2016. I am skeptical that we can predict him at LT (Scar claims Cannon isn’t moving) with the information that we currently have now. Perhaps a good showing in TC + the preseason will help to justify all of the hype.

First of all, please allow me to clean up an area where I inadvertently misled you by providing incomplete information. Brown, though considerably bigger than Waddle, had slightly better athleticism scores than Waddle. However, Waddle's athleticism scores were pretty crappy, so the comparison is more a backhanded compliment than a recommendation. I didn't intend to imply that Brown's scores were "good".

Second, Brown was extremely raw coming out of Florida (as a two-year JUCO transfer) ... where he'd played Tackle only when their starter was injured, and then was moved to Guard for his Senior season. Combined with his not-quite-inspiring athletic testing numbers, the fact that he's an exceptionally large human being was probably the only reason he was drafted at all.

"Only played one full season in 2016" is maybe a bit misleading.
- In 2017, Brown played 100% of the snaps at Tackle through 10 games until he was injured (670 total snaps, including 75 at LT filling in for Joe Staley for one game).
- In 2016, he played 100% of the snaps at RT (1036 total).
- In 2015, as a rookie, he replaced Erik Pears as starting RT for the last two games (Pears had struggled with knee issues most of that season).
So, Brown has had 28 games of starting experience, which is four more than Waddle had in Detroit before he was acquired by the Pats.

I really couldn't say whether SFO was "quite unhappy" with Brown. I do know that the Broncos (Von Miller's team) were trying trade for him a day or two before the draft (according to multiple independent media reports), but that ultimately, the price was too steep (supposedly Denver's #71, straight up). The Pats got a much better deal, but only after the Niners had selected McGlinchey in the 1st round.

So, it's anything but clear that the Niners were "eager" to move him. OTOH, with his reported weight-maintenance issues, and his weak run-blocking, it seems reasonable to think that they were at least willing to let him go. They certainly have several other potential Tackles on their depth chart to work behind McGlinchey and Staley, including an RFA who they signed away from the Seahawks in 2017 (Garry Gilliam).

I honestly pay no attention to projections that he'll be the Pats 2018 starting LT, and I take no responsibility for them. And I have no intention of trying to "justify all the hype", which is just so much worthless bullsh*t to me.

Based on what I've taken the time to learn about Brown, I'll say that there appears to be a pretty good chance that he'll be useful to the Pats, one way or another. Given that Brown just turned 25 last month and that Cannon turned 30 just a week ago, there's at least some possibility that he could become a long-term Cannon replacement in another year or two, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

 

[jah]

Good stuff. I suppose the reasons why I am a bit more reserved than most are the facts that 1) he’s struggled with his weight, 2) he’s still recovering from an injury, although I’m assuming that they felt comfortable enough to take a chance or the trade and physical wouldn’t have gone through, and 3) if he’s really that big, quick, etc, and has progressed so much then why didn’t SF keep him for at least the 2018 season where he was still under a cheap contract?

Better yet, if his measureables were so good why wasn’t he drafted until the 7th round? Not meaning to be pessimistic, but these are fair and legitimate questions. From what I understand, the 49’ers were quite unhappy with him and he has a very limited sample size of only playing in one full season back in 2016. I am skeptical that we can predict him at LT (Scar claims Cannon isn’t moving) with the information that we currently have now. Perhaps a good showing in TC + the preseason will help to justify all of the hype.

To answer your first question: I really don't know. When I believed Brown was being traded to Denver for a 2nd round pick I still thought SF was making a stupid decision. We got him for a 4th round value (roughly). For some reason SF likes McGlinchey a lot more and we'll see how that turns out. I will also add that when Lynch was hired as GM he had quite literally no qualifications besides being a HOF player.

As for the second question, it's because of a reason alluded to in the post you're replying to. He was extremely raw. The 7th round every year is loaded with physically gifted players who weren't all too good at football. We know Brown at least had the capacity to grow past that, which is a good sign.

 

[Triumph]

Typical moronic comment from you, Triumph.
HUGE difference between 30 years ago and now in regards to doctors being held accountable for players health because of quacks like the one who OKed for Reggie Lewis to play.. Of course, you also forget that Lewis didn't stop using Coke.

Like I said, you obviously know being a Doctor and a Lawyer.

Then, add knowing everything about football.

 

[Triumph]

Isaiah Wynn is listed at 6'2 6/8 and 313lbs. That's what his Combine weight was. Not sure where you got 302..

Wynn played LT in HS and again as a Senior in College. Every LT struggles some on the edge at times. Be in Matt Light, Bruce Armstrong, Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden or Peter Boulware.

I'm curious where you saw that Scarnecchia claimed that Brown was 380. Care to offer a link?

Big deal Wynn played some LT in college. Means nothing.

Easley was going to be a beast. He was back in college. Maroney could do it all. He did it in college. Wynn is a done deal.

Dante is wrong and you are right. Patriots Tackles Isaiah Wynn, Trent Brown To Miss OTAs With Shoulder Injuries

 

[jah]

Big deal Wynn played some LT in college. Means nothing.

Easley was going to be a beast. He was back in college. Maroney could do it all. He did it in college. Wynn is a done deal.

Dante is wrong and you are right. Patriots Tackles Isaiah Wynn, Trent Brown To Miss OTAs With Shoulder Injuries

Literally nobody at all here has said Wynn is a "done deal" just like no one said he was an All Pro. Dante said Wynn is going to get a shot at left tackle. There's no reason to believe he won't be in the mix. I think you need a nap.

 

[mgteich]

The value that we gave for Brown was equal to that of an early 4th rounder, a spot where we would have drafted a player who makes the team.

So, not a 3rd, but not an insignificant amount either. A low 4th for a 1 year rental is a significant use of resources.

FWIW the Pats did not trade a 3rd for Brown. They traded their late 3rd (95) for Brown and a high 5th (143) so the real cost was dropping 48 draft spots. The misconception that they traded a 3rd straight up for Brown has just been repeated so much in such a short time that it's become accepted as fact.

 

[maineman209]

A low 4th for a 1 year rental is a significant use of resources.

Maybe so, but Shelton is essentially the same, now that the Pats have declined his 5th-year option. Brown and Shelton may not be the only examples of this tactic.

 

[BadMoFo]

Of course.

 

[The Scrizz]

The Jets have claimed that they are a football team.

 

[Patsgofor4]

Big deal Wynn played some LT in college. Means nothing.

Easley was going to be a beast. He was back in college. Maroney could do it all. He did it in college. Wynn is a done deal.

Dante is wrong and you are right. Patriots Tackles Isaiah Wynn, Trent Brown To Miss OTAs With Shoulder Injuries

Playing elite level left tackle for an entire season in the best conference in college football certainly means something.

 

[Ivan]

Literally nobody at all here has said Wynn is a "done deal" just like no one said he was an All Pro. Dante said Wynn is going to get a shot at left tackle. There's no reason to believe he won't be in the mix. I think you need a nap.

Triumph s trolling. Period.

 

[Love The Drake]

If he can play for the Jets?
Bizare we would release him then.

 

[Ivan]

If he can play for the Jets?
Bizare we would release him then.

If he can play for the Jets, that’s why you release him.

 

[RayClay]

Big deal Wynn played some LT in college. Means nothing.

Easley was going to be a beast. He was back in college. Maroney could do it all. He did it in college. Wynn is a done deal.

Dante is wrong and you are right. Patriots Tackles Isaiah Wynn, Trent Brown To Miss OTAs With Shoulder Injuries

I can't stand it!

 

[patfanken]

A 3rd round draft pick is “cheap?”

C'mon, Sup, you are a knowledgeable fan. You know that is NOT what the Pats paid for Brown. So why use the stupid man's take on what the Pats paid for him. IIRC, they dropped back just over 1 round in the draft when the deal was done. YOU should know that's not a "3rd round draft pick"....or anywhere close to it. This is a take I'd expect from Minihane or Felger, not from you. So if the Pats end up getting a starting OT for dropping around 40 slots late in the 3rd round then the deal was a steal. If he ends up being a rotational OLman, then it STILL was a solid trade.

Not sure about the “mystery,” but his (positive) body of work consists of one full NFL season where he made it as a 7th round draft pick in 2016, and a comment from Von Miller about how he’s got a promising future due to size and arm length, which occurred after a joint practice. Miller went on to say that he’s probably the best RT that he’s faced and that he’s got the potential to be a top 5 tackle, overall. That said, Von Miller has also gone on record many times praising the talent of Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch, so I’m not sure why any of us actually give a damn about his evaluations.

Again that's another example of reporting only PART of the story. Didn't I read where Brown gave up so few pressures on the QB that he ranked something like #5 among all OT's?

It was widely reported that the 49’ers were unhappy with his weight management issues and he’s coming off a season where he was placed on IR due to a shoulder injury that he’s still recovering from. The 49’ers were in a pretty good situation, cap wise, when they made the decision to trade him, so obviously they don’t agree with the talent assessment here, or felt that a 3rd rounder was too good to pass up. Either way, I’m not as sure as you are that he was cheap.

Again they DIDN'T trade JUST a 3rd round pick for Brown. They got one back in return. Why speak only half the truth just to enhance your own narrative.

 

[supafly]

C'mon, Sup, you are a knowledgeable fan. You know that is NOT what the Pats paid for Brown. So why use the stupid man's take on what the Pats paid for him. IIRC, they dropped back just over 1 round in the draft when the deal was done. YOU should know that's not a "3rd round draft pick"....or anywhere close to it. This is a take I'd expect from Minihane or Felger, not from you. So if the Pats end up getting a starting OT for dropping around 40 slots late in the 3rd round then the deal was a steal. If he ends up being a rotational OLman, then it STILL was a solid trade.

Again that's another example of reporting only PART of the story. Didn't I read where Brown gave up so few pressures on the QB that he ranked something like #5 among all OT's?

Again they DIDN'T trade JUST a 3rd round pick for Brown. They got one back in return. Why speak only half the truth just to enhance your own narrative.

Thanks for the input, Ken. Your point was addressed by me earlier in the thread, and you’re right that I should’ve remembered to include the 5th in return. We moved down a total of 48 spots in the middle of the draft.

As mgteich noted, it still amounts to about a 4th rounder, so the point still stands that not only was it not “cheap,” but there wasn’t really any mystery surrounding Brown’s issues, either. His weight, small sample size, and current injury were all well known.

 

[Triumph]

Yall still crying for Garcia now that he is a Jet?