SOME OPTIONS

[maineman209]

I see it differently.

I'm OK with Belichick not liking the flawed top 5 enough to bring one in.

However, we all thought that it would be fine to take a shot with a 3rd or 4th tier QB to see if they MIGHT develop into a future starter, or even a future backup.

I don't see how bringing in a Manziel or Bridgewater is any different. I also don't see how it wrong now to use a 3rd to trade for someone's backup is much different than using the 3rd in the draft. Obviously the experience level and contract length might be different.

I don't see any harm in bringing Manziel in for a tryout (except for the hernia risk incurred by the mediots who would be grotesquely contorting themselves to produce the most melodramatic "hidden meaning" hot takes).

Bridgewater may not be a realistic option unless he's cut. His 2018 $5M salary is fully-guaranteed by the Jete.

There may be other options like Jake Rudock of DET (just using him as one example). He might be available for as little as a 7th-rounder, his 2018 cap hit is one $630k, and - if he works out - he's an RFA in 2019.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Picking up Brown's 2019 option right now isn't "doling out" anything - yet. That $7M doesn't become fully-guaranteed until sometime next February, IIRC, and can be rescinded before then (as long as he isn't injured). What picking up his option does accomplish is to extend the time frame of the Pats control over him until after they've seen how he performs working in tandem with Shelton for a full season. It seems to me that the opportunity advantage to that is worth taking the risk that Brown gets significantly injured.

In any case, I don't base my evaluation of Brown's performance as an interior DL in the Pats scheme on the way that other interior DL have performed in other schemes. I think Brown's role and requirements are significantly different from those others and that he fulfills both very well. To some extent, the ongoing criticism of Brown reminds me of the criticism of Nink during his first three seasons. He wasn't sufficiently "dynamic" as an edge-rusher, which was true, but irrelevant, since that wasn't the extent of his job in the Pats scheme

To make my point clear, I think paying $7m for Brown is an overpay- and I think hes a good player.

 

[maineman209]

To make my point clear, I think paying $7m for Brown is an overpay- and I think hes a good player.

Again, it isn't an overpay or underpay until the deadline to rescind has passed sometime after the 2018 season. The Pat could still workout a long term deal with him yet this season (cheaper than the $7M). There's also a chance that, working in tandem with Shelton, Brown could have some sort of a "breakout" season in 2018, in which case having him under control for 2019 at $7M might begin to seem much less of an "overpay".

My point about picking up Brown's option is that it provides the Pats with more contingency options.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Again, it isn't an overpay or underpay until the deadline to rescind has passed sometime after the 2018 season. The Pat could still workout a long term deal with him yet this season (cheaper than the $7M). There's also a chance that, working in tandem with Shelton, Brown could have some sort of a "breakout" season in 2018, in which case having him under control for 2019 at $7M might begin to seem much less of an "overpay".

My point about picking up Brown's option is that it provides the Pats with more contingency options.

I understand that. No need to explain an extension can be reached with him to spread out the dough.

My point is if they go down the same road with Jones and Hightower- which were 5th year options, Brown is simply not worth $7m for a single year.

 

[tasmlab]

Wait, Johnny Manziel, the guy who couldn't stay sober enough to be the back up for the BROWNS, is part of the end of Tom Brady story?? Man, and I thought "The Last Jedi" was bad...

 

[maineman209]

I understand that. No need to explain an extension can be reached with him to spread out the dough.

My point is if they go down the same road with Jones and Hightower- which were 5th year options, Brown is simply not worth $7m for a single year.

Some combined 2015-2017 production comps and current cap hits:

Leonard Williams, 24 ....... 48 gms .. 12.0 sacks .. 178 TT .. $14.2M option picked up
Kyle Williams, 34 .............. 37 gms .. 9.0 sacks ... 119 TT .. $5.5M
Linval Joseph, 30 .............. 44 gms .. 8.0 sacks ... 201 TT .. $10.7M
Sheldon Richardson, 28 ... 41 gms .. 7.5 sacks ... 141 TT .. $8.0M
Marcell Dareus, 28 ........... 37 gms .. 7.5 sacks ... 118 TT .. $10.2M
Grady Jarrett, 25 .............. 47 gms .. 8.0 sacks ... 127 TT .. $7.1M option pending
Malcolm Brown, 24 .......... 45 gms .. 8.5 sacks ... 147 TT .. $7.1M option pending

 

[DW Toys]

Some combined 2015-2017 production comps and current cap hits:

Leonard Williams, 24 ....... 48 gms .. 12.0 sacks .. 178 TT .. $14.2M option picked up
Kyle Williams, 34 .............. 37 gms .. 9.0 sacks ... 119 TT .. $5.5M
Linval Joseph, 30 .............. 44 gms .. 8.0 sacks ... 201 TT .. $10.7M
Sheldon Richardson, 28 ... 41 gms .. 7.5 sacks ... 141 TT .. $8.0M
Marcell Dareus, 28 ........... 37 gms .. 7.5 sacks ... 118 TT .. $10.2M
Grady Jarrett, 25 .............. 47 gms .. 8.0 sacks ... 127 TT .. $7.1M option pending
Malcolm Brown, 24 .......... 45 gms .. 8.5 sacks ... 147 TT .. $7.1M option pending

You have a point. The UDFA Atkins might have a legit shot at Brown's roster spot. Brown is mediocre at best.

BB must have decided that the "D" talent from round two on sucked. Names I see that upgrade and can be trade targets are Earl Thomas so we can get rid of "Snoop Dog" Harmon. Seattle has no problem with Stoners out there.They would do a Trade with Harmon and an O lineman for Thomas who has one more year at $8.5mm but Cheech is at $4.5mm so we get back some. Even Harmon thought he might be gone.

Lets talk trading chips.If Trent Brown is starter material, let's start with Cannon:
Malcom Brown....No where near worth $7mm.

The other name I am preaching for is Kendricks for the past year.

Kenny Vacarro would be a great compliment to Chung as a hybrid on the other side. Vacarro is faster with more ball skills and can cover a slot or TE better than Chung.

Thomas (99Tackles) as an upgrade on Harmon (23 Tackles), Kendricks, Vaccaro and you have upgraded this "D".

Finally I want Dez.....That's right. He wants a one year prove it. We have few Red Zone options. Dola actually was a good Red Zone threat. Brit? Matthews? Hogan has not proved it.
Dez with a chip on his shoulder would be terrific. With Gronk and JE?

DW Toys

 

[Nunchucks]

Brown has been a solid and sometimes stellar DT for the Patriots. 7 million for a guy who played last year with no help on the DL, is a pretty good deal. He isn't a top 10 DL, but 7 million is just market value for the ability that Brown brings. You guys need to reset your expectations on how much guys are paid under the continually expanding cap.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

When is the date when the Pats can sign players without worrying about them counting against the comp formula?

 

[maineman209]

When is the date when the Pats can sign players without worrying about them counting against the comp formula?

May 3rd or May 10th, I think.

 

[mgteich]

We forget that the 5th year option is an team option for next year. The team can cut the player. What the player gets is injury protection.

I see no negatives in exercising the options for both Brown and Shelton. If the team doesn't want one of them later (this preseason or next), the player can be cut or traded.
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BOTTOM LINE
The decision (one way or the other) does NOT affect this year's roster choices. We are fine with Shelton, Brown, Guy and Butler. And yes, we expect Valentine to come back from injuries,

 

[maineman209]

Brown has been a solid and sometimes stellar DT for the Patriots. 7 million for a guy who played last year with no help on the DL, is a pretty good deal. He isn't a top 10 DL, but 7 million is just market value for the ability that Brown brings. You guys need to reset your expectations on how much guys are paid under the continually expanding cap.

IIRC, there may be 8-10 interior DL in the league who have produced significantly more sacks than Brown over the past three seasons, while playing in roughly the same number of games and making roughly the same number of tackles. Not all of them are playing pure "undertackle" DT roles or playing in schemes that are remotely similar.

In any case, such players are difficult to acquire unless you're drafting in the top half of the 1st round or have oodles of cap space to burn, because the second contracts of such guys cost significantly more than Brown's option - Cox is making around $22M and Kawaan Short around $17M.

 

[DW Toys]

Brown has been a solid and sometimes stellar DT for the Patriots. 7 million for a guy who played last year with no help on the DL, is a pretty good deal. He isn't a top 10 DL, but 7 million is just market value for the ability that Brown brings. You guys need to reset your expectations on how much guys are paid under the continually expanding cap.

You have to ask yourself one question. Is there a player that can produce what Brown has done for half that money?
DW Toys

 

[mgteich]

You have to ask yourself one question. Is there a player that can produce what Brown has done for half that money?
DW Toys

You do mean a player that is available to us NOW that can produce more in 2018 than Brown for less than the cost of Brown?