Celtics trade Isaiah Thomas, Brooklyn 2018 pick & players for Kyrie Irving

[primetime]

Fair enough, but I'll add that I think you're comparing IT's best season ever (that many would call it a breakout season) to an average season for Kyrie. Of course Kyrie has the advantage of playing with the best basketball player on the planet, but still, Kyrie's done it longer and at a higher level and as you say, he's younger.

Last year was Kyrie's best season too, but you're correct that he's played at a high level for longer than Thomas despite being younger.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Fair enough on most of this, though I still agree to disagree. Kyrie resigning seems more likely than not given the reasons I stated; great coach, focal point, strong team built around him. I'd hedge my bets that he will love that. But yes we can't know for sure. Reports suggest that Ainge and the Celts are confident that Kyrie will be here for years to come.

I would say that he defense will still be pretty good. Crowder was a good defender but not great. Hayward is a solid defender as I think Jaylen Brown will also continue to be. Of course we know Smart's ability in that area and Morris will also be helpful on the defensive end. Kyrie does have the capacity to be an average defender and hopefully with Brad Stevens coaching him he will take that next step.

The rebounding issue remains the biggest concern, I agree.

In his presser Danny went on to say he/the team did an extensive amount of homework on KI. I assume "sign-ability" was part of that due-diligence.

Correct on Hayward's D. I think its in the same ballpark as Crowder's. They will miss Bradley's on the ball D. Maybe Brad can coax KI to man up a little more. Not sure. I'm assuming they will move Smart and Brown into the other starting positions as they are very good on-the-ball defenders (at least I think Brown can be). Morris is competitive on D. He should be an upgrade over Amir

 

[Keyser Söze]

people *****ed about us not having super stars. Then they ***** when Danny gets one. Isiah wanted a max deal, anyone who thinks Danny should have given him one is mental. Kyrie is a better player, and his prime is still ahead. We really didn't give up that much compared to what we still have in assets.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

I know this goes against sportsmanship but when Boston plays the nets that may be a good time to give the starters the old DNP-coaches decision.

 

[RobertWeathers]

people *****ed about us not having super stars. Then they ***** when Danny gets one. Isiah wanted a max deal, anyone who thinks Danny should have given him one is mental. Kyrie is a better player, and his prime is still ahead. We really didn't give up that much compared to what we still have in assets.

Yep.

Danny still has a bushel of potential choice picks.

2018

• Los Angeles Lakers (If pick falls between spots 2-5)
• Boston Celtics’ own pick

2019

• Philadelphia 76ers or Sacramento Kings (If the Lakers’ 2018 pick falls outside 2-5, Boston will instead have a choice between Philadelphia’s top-1 protected pick or Sacramento’s top-1 protected pick in 2019)
• Memphis Grizzlies (If pick falls outside top-8)
• Los Angeles Clippers (If pick falls outside top-14)
• Boston Celtics’ own pick

2020

• Memphis Grizzlies (If pick has not yet been conveyed and falls outside top-6)
• Los Angeles Clippers (If pick has not yet been conveyed and falls outside top-14)
• Boston Celtics’ own pick

2021

• Memphis Grizzlies (If pick has not yet been conveyed. Pick would be unprotected)
• Boston Celtics’ own pick

 

[IllegalContact]

Not sure why you think IT can't share the ball, who did you want him to give it to last season?

it was sort of a joke........to me it all starts and end with the fact that I believe that the celtics would not have won the championship with him

 

[BritPat]

I'm not the biggest NBA fan in the world, nor do I have the greatest understanding (I follow the Magic!!), but this seems like way too much to give up for a really good player who hasn't quite lived up to his potential, that will potentially only be under contract for a couple of years.

I suppose it will play out down the line, but the Cavs are better with Thomas and Crowder, let alone that pick.

Right, I'll climb back in my box.....

 

[rochrist]

Here's something to consider. Postseason averages for the 2 players:
IT 22.6 pts, .40 shooting, .30 from 3.
KI: 23.9 pts, .46 shooting, .41 from 3.

 

[SalemPats]

I'm not the biggest NBA fan in the world, nor do I have the greatest understanding (I follow the Magic!!), but this seems like way too much to give up for a really good player who hasn't quite lived up to his potential, that will potentially only be under contract for a couple of years.

I suppose it will play out down the line, but the Cavs are better with Thomas and Crowder, let alone that pick.

Right, I'll climb back in my box.....

I would say that more than any other sport, one player can make a bigger impact than anyone else. We get a top 10 blue chip talent for an older player with bad hips. Crowder would have struggled to find playing time on this roster

 

[varjao]

I loved this trade for the Celtics. A few points, not in any kind of order:

- Today, player for player, Kyrie is already better than Thomas. And still has some upside. IT on the other hand already hit his ceiling and I don't think he's going to have another season like this last one. I'm not even going into the age and injury subject as I was not aware he has a bad hip.

- Kyrie is a star player, in the NBA you need a star to win. I never felt like IT was on that tier.

- Kyrie will have the perfect situation in Boston. He wants to be the alpha and there's no better place for that kind of responsibility than Boston or LA, the two heaviest jerseys in the league. Sorry, being the alpha in Minnesota or New Orleans is ****e. The guys around him won't have any problem with that, Hayward is a low profile team guy and Horford now may become more comfortable being the #3 in the C's big 3 (Still overpaid though).

- There are dozens of players like Crowder in the league, he was a throw in to make the deal happen, no one should bring this into the conversation as an issue.

- Draft picks. Well no guarantee there. I don't think the Nets will improve, I think they will still suck hard but anyways, a draft pick can turn into a bust, can turn into a good player that takes years to develop, can turn into a talented player with injuries plaguing his development, it can turn into a great player, it can turn into a STAR which Kyrie already is, a polished and proven player. And even in this best case scenario it will take some years and even though a good GM shouldn't work with the concept of window of title, sometimes there is in fact a window. I think GS will repeat but we never know, KD goes down with an injury things get pretty even. I think Ainge was aiming 2019 but this next season is not so far away right now. For me the Celtics with this trade makes the jump to be the best team in the East.

- Risk/Economics. Well the Celtics may have overpaid but we don't know if there was other teams trying to get Kyrie's services. You don't have a player like Kyrie still in his prime available for trade every year (and the ammo to pull such trade). Sometimes you have to take risks and this is not a desperate move. It's a bold move, but a relatively safe move. Kyrie as I said is a proven player and I can't see any scenario where this doesn't work out. Maybe if he gets over his head and decides to become Odell Beckham Jr kind of prima donna. Very unlikely.

- All of the above only makes sense if they extend him. I'm assuming they already have some agreement. If he plays 2 years and leave, then the trade is a fail.

Well there are more things but I just remembered this few items, spent 1 hour this morning with my boss talking about this trade and other NBA things, I think the people around were all WTF?

Overall I think the trade works for both teams. We tend to analyse a deal looking for who got the better end but in this case, Cleveland got rid of a player who didn't want to be there and requested a trade getting great value in return (as someone said, Lebron may leave after this season and Cleveland need to go back to collecting high draft picks to give their fans hope like the local football team operates). The Celtics got a player that they needed to become a serious contender. In hindsight we may look at this deal one year from now and decide who won the trade, but that's easy. Right now it works for both teams, that's why it happened.

 

[RobertWeathers]

- Risk/Economics. Well the Celtics may have overpaid but we don't know if there was other teams trying to get Kyrie's services. You don't have a player like Kyrie still in his prime available for trade every year (and the ammo to pull such trade). Sometimes you have to take risks and this is not a desperate move. It's a bold move, but a relatively safe move. Kyrie as I said is a proven player and I can't see any scenario where this doesn't work out. Maybe if he gets over his head and decides to become Odell Beckham Jr kind of prima donna. Very unlikely.

I firmly believe Danny had competition for Irving and in order to procure the player from THE conference rival he needed to overpay. On the surface, KI is a proven star whereas IT is coming off injury with an expiring contract (which is valuable), Jae is a dime a dozen role player and Zizic is a developmental player . CLE saved about $29m in the deal.

You could easily argue that package should have been enough for KI but because CLE is a rival and in the EC, Danny had to part with the BKY pick and make it impossible for CLE to say no.

 

[deroc5050]

Its a hard trade to gauge.. for 2 reasons. 1 IT had to carry the Celtics that both inflates his stats and also hurts him because he has no one else to really help him score consistently. So helps stats.. hurts chances to win.

Kyrie is a better player than IT but not by much. And Kyrie has played with L James.. so while that helps him win and definitely takes some pressure off of him he still put up great numbers.

The Celtics are a better team now than they were before the trade. And the Celtics have 2 possible budding stars in the making that will now get more playing time because of Crowders departure.

It was a good move by Ainge.. IF Kyrie is planning on signing an extension.

In 3 years you will have Kyrie, Hayward, Brown and Tatum as 4/5 starters hopefully. If those 2 pan out and you add another piece we could be contending for a title.

And in the meantime we have a chance to make the finals.

The thing that I noticed about IT, is that teams did find ways of shutting him down in the playoffs. I love IT though and wish him well. I didn't love backing up the truck full of money comment.. but thats a minor gripe.

Boston got the best player in the trade.

 

[PScottman]

Irving has stated he wants to be the top dawg. What do Haywood and Horford think about that?

What in their history indicates either of them vying for "top dawg" status? In fact, the opposite is true for both. They both have been prodded to unleash their offense, have a pass first/move the ball track record, and for Horford particularly already deferred to other offensive players in Atlanta and IT here.

 

[PScottman]

He's an exceptional scorer but not a good distributor

And that's different from IT how? Check their assist stats comparatively.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I think what Ainge has done is remarkable. Winning NBA titles generally requires suck luck where you get franchise players by sucking at the right time. Ainge used old talent and smart deals to build capital, got lucky with Thomas and built a conference contender that lured top free agents to come to Boston, and created a better base to take the next step by purging his starting lineup for better talent. From hiring Stevens to creating a much higher talent level he's done just about everything right, Celtic fans should be really happy with where they are at. If Tatum is a good as it appears he could be they are going to be a final four team with an actual chance of getting by Cleveland.

 

[TommyD4207]

So this guy Ainge didnt think an elite big (which the team needs more than anything) like george or butler was worth trading the brooklyn pick and key starters for, but trading for a point guard that does the same thing that our best player already does somehow IS worthy of that trade? Thats some logic right there..

Please list all the teams with "elite bigs" that are in serious (Final 8) Championship contention.

I'll wait.

 

[TommyD4207]

When the hell did Irving become an offensive maestro? Was that 5, or 10, minutes ago?

.

2 of the last three games played in the league? 38 and 40 in games 3 and 4 in the finals? 42 in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Finals when Lebron decided to take a powder? Or how about last year when he took over the Finals in games 4, 5, and 6 (30, 34, 41) when, again, Lebron was ready to mail it in, and, oh yeah, hit the ****ing game-winner over the mother****ing league MVP in game 7?

Last year, Irving was 47/40/90, his best season by those metrics, and better than anything Isaiah Thomas (either one) has ever done.

 

[TommyD4207]

i don't follow basketball. is irving better than thomas?

Yes.

 

[primetime]

And that's different from IT how? Check their assist stats comparatively.

It's not, they're very similar players and Irving is generally slightly better in most facets of the game but is younger and may still improve while Thomas has likely peaked and has a game that, when it falls, will fall of a cliff. At the moment it's something like upgrading from the 8th best point in the game to the 7th, and that's arguable too.

The question is if the swap for a slight upgrade was worth giving up a likely high lottery pick and a prospect. I think that entirely depends on whether you think Irving still has room before he hits his ceiling. That's totally subjective and it's not really an argument one can prove in any way. We'll see on the court. My suspicion is that Irving will struggle when he's counted on to run an offense, since LeBron was the primary ballhandler for the Cavs, but that's just a hunch and it'll be proven right or wrong during the season. I'm a Nets fan, I don't have much to root for anyways.

 

[RobertWeathers]

What in their history indicates either of them vying for "top dawg" status? In fact, the opposite is true for both. They both have been prodded to unleash their offense, have a pass first/move the ball track record, and for Horford particularly already deferred to other offensive players in Atlanta and IT here.

My point is KI can't come in here and verbally demand the Cs are his team .

He's got to earn it and those two will make him earn it.