DL & EDGE Players: Run stuffers, designated pass rushers, hybrids, etc

[maineman209]

I look forward to Nolans stuff every year but the scouts quotes have always sounded a bit manufactured to me?

For instance Rivers does need to put more hustle on plays away from him and his arms are on the short side but I disagree strongly with that quote.

37.5 sacks/56.5 TFL are not the #'s of someone standing around.

His hands are actually very good and there's many others who agree.

He's not just a pass rush specialist and plays the run just fine. His hands are regarded by many as some of the best in this class.

He can attack the loop/hoop and his man, something that goes unnoticed.

I think the Pats need one of Anderson or Rivers (or someone else in that mould), I'm just not sure which.

 

[miloofcroton]

The edge players that I would target are Tyus Bowser, Tarell Basham, and Dawuane Smoot. Bowser for more of a standup or hybrid role, and the latter two for more stritckly a down lineman position.

 

[manxman2601]

The edge players that I would target are Tyus Bowser, Tarell Basham, and Dawuane Smoot. Bowser for more of a standup or hybrid role, and the latter two for more stritckly a down lineman position.

I heartily agree with the first two. not especially a fan of Smoot. As for Bowser, I see him as more of an off the ball linebacker that can blitz for the Pats.

 

[miloofcroton]

I heartily agree with the first two. not especially a fan of Smoot. As for Bowser, I see him as more of an off the ball linebacker that can blitz for the Pats.

The thing about Smoot is that he's a 5th round pick or so. There's more that I like about him than many other DEs in the draft, so it's kind of a value choice.

Bowser is definitely versatile. Former basketball player. Shows elite quickness and bend on the edge too. When you say off the ball, are you referring to an OLB in an even front or an MLB (including the WILL in a 4-3) in an odd front? My impression is that even fronts have almost entirely gone the way of the dodo.

 

[manxman2601]

The thing about Smoot is that he's a 5th round pick or so. There's more that I like about him than many other DEs in the draft, so it's kind of a value choice.

Bowser is definitely versatile. Former basketball player. Shows elite quickness and bend on the edge too. When you say off the ball, are you referring to an OLB in an even front or an MLB (including the WILL in a 4-3) in an odd front? My impression is that even fronts have almost entirely gone the way of the dodo.

We effectively played a 3-4 towards the end of the season with OLBs on the line of scrimmage and either dropping or rushing. That's where I see Bowser but in an even front, I see him in the Jamie Collins role. What I don't see him as is as a 4-3 DE, at least in our scheme.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I think the Pats need one of Anderson or Rivers (or someone else in that mould), I'm just not sure which.

I think Rivers will add a few lbs but I love him. He's a 1st for me.

I love Bowser to and think he can rush the passer as 34 OLB and hes shown he can knife the A/B. He doesn't get enough credit as a pass rusher imo. Would of had great #'s had he not been a Swiss army knife. Which he can do as well.

These two would really fill some needs and cause some chaos this year

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Hearing rumors that several teams are looking to trade up in the first round to draft Willis, and that he will end up going a lot higher than fans assume. Sad times. I still have high hopes for Odenigbo sliding under the radar, at least.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Hearing rumors that several teams are looking to trade up in the first round to draft Willis, and that he will end up going a lot higher than fans assume. Sad times. I still have high hopes for Odenigbo sliding under the radar, at least.

I'd be surprised If Willis (8.62 1st) and Bowser (8.45, just missing 1st rd for me) weren't drafted in the 1st.

If we keep Butler and our picks we're gunna have an absolutely loaded team.

The top 100 in this draft is crazy and we can easily trade up 10-20 picks if we want our guy that's there.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Best case scenario is Tim WILLIAMS or hall falls to us at #72.

We need a pass rusher, even if only as a third down pass rusher, super badly! We need someone who can get to the qb!

Williams and/or hall are the only two worth #72 that have a chance to fall to us.

Anderson would make an acceptable consolation prize at #72 if the others are off the board.

 

[maineman209]

Hearing rumors that several teams are looking to trade up in the first round to draft Willis, and that he will end up going a lot higher than fans assume. Sad times. I still have high hopes for Odenigbo sliding under the radar, at least.

Odeni-who??



I've kind of had an eye on him for a while, but I'm pretty sure he's still in stealth mode.

 

[maineman209]

Best case scenario is Tim WILLIAMS or hall falls to us at #72.

We need a pass rusher, even if only as a third down pass rusher, super badly! We need someone who can get to the qb!

Williams and/or hall are the only two worth #72 that have a chance to fall to us.

Anderson would make an acceptable consolation prize at #72 if the others are off the board.

I'd be satisfied just to come up with another guy (or two) with excellent edge and gap discipline against the run and who can consistently generate 4-8 sacks and 25-30 hurries, bump a TE out of his route timing and drop back to cover the flat on his side when necessary.

 

[PatsGuy]

I was aware of Sapps criticism of Miles Garrett( he not worthy), so when some mid day hosts of a Philly sports talk show googled Garrett's sacks, I found it very interesting that the great majority of them came against opponents like Louisiana Monroe, Nevada, Ball State.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

I was aware of Sapps criticism of Miles Garrett( he not worthy), so when some mid day hosts of a Philly sports talk show googled Garrett's sacks, I found it very interesting that the great majority of them came against opponents like Louisiana Monroe, Nevada, Ball State.

I definitely hear where you're coming from, but I'm not too worried. Fun exercise: look up how many sacks Chandler Jones had in college. Or JPP. Traits > production is often true when looking at pass rushers. Garrett is an outstanding young man who has elite traits and also very solid numbers. If not for the ankle injury this year, he probably would have finished his college career with nearly 40 sacks, instead of "only" 32.

 

[PatsGuy]

I definitely hear where you're coming from, but I'm not too worried. Fun exercise: look up how many sacks Chandler Jones had in college. Or JPP. Traits > production is often true when looking at pass rushers. Garrett is an outstanding young man who has elite traits and also very solid numbers. If not for the ankle injury this year, he probably would have finished his college career with nearly 40 sacks, instead of "only" 32.

I definitely hear where you're coming from, but I'm not too worried. Fun exercise: look up how many sacks Chandler Jones had in college. Or JPP. Traits > production is often true when looking at pass rushers. Garrett is an outstanding young man who has elite traits and also very solid numbers. If not for the ankle injury this year, he probably would have finished his college career with nearly 40 sacks, instead of "only" 32.

Agreed. I guess I'm becoming no different than any GM wannabe, insofar as looking for reasons why I should not like a player

 

[captain stone]

Wow, I can't imagine what you're basing this statement on...

History.

 

[patchick]

History.

Only if you're prepared to declare Sebastian Vollmer, Duron Harmon and Logan Mankins colossal busts, and Chad Jackson and Darius Butler spectacular steals.

Seriously, this is one where we can't trust our gut sense -- availability bias and confirmation bias lead us astray. When I went back and tallied up our friend history, it turned out that draft-day "value" ratings on Pats picks simply did not predict success or failure.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

After rewatching the tapes, I think the kid from tenn. is a better pass rusher than garret.

And after rewatching the tapes, I can not see why Thomas of Stanford is ranked higher than 25.

The pass rushers from Ohio, Houston and Florida Atlantic do not excite me.

Still hoping against all hope that Tim WILLIAMS slides to #72.

 

[long distance]

What exactly does any of this post have to do with the Fact that whenever Bill reaches for somebody that nobody else had ranked in the same round (or two, or three, or...) in which they were taken, they All have Sucked?

Wow, I can't imagine what you're basing this statement on. I once sorted out all of the Pats draft picks who were considered "reaches" on draft day an those who were considered "steals" to see if those rankings/opinions actually predicted the quality of the draft choices. It turned out that popular opinion of the value of the pick had no predictive value. NONE.

From Lombardi:

Whenever I hear NFL draft commentators proclaim, “He’s a first-rounder” or “He’s not a great pick at 10, but he’d be better at 20,” I’m not even “a little bit” insulted — I’m just insulted. He’s a first-rounder? What does that even mean? Judging a pick by rounds or draft position doesn’t make sense. And yet, we hear it every year.

When Bill joined the Browns in 1991, the two of us spent the better part of his first season designing our grading system. We wanted to define the prospect’s role on our team, and we wanted to predict how long it would take for him to achieve that role. That’s it. Instead of predicting rounds, our system forced our scouts to grade every player as (1) a starter, (2) a potential starter, (3) a developmental player, (4) a backup, or (5) someone who couldn’t make any NFL team. In Belichick’s room, no one was permitted to mention rounds — that job was for useless coffee-guzzling scouts and cliché-spouting TV commentators.
_

More at: The 14 Best NFL Draft Prospects – The Ringer

 

[manxman2601]

This is the theory I'm working on which is why I'm less high on Rivers/Hendrickson than some others.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

This is the theory I'm working on which is why I'm less high on Rivers/Hendrickson than some others.

I don't think they would overlook someone who could do both, but I agree it's a good theory. That's one reason I'm okay with Fadol Brown or Demarcus Walker, etc, rather than a pure speed guy. It just fits their M.O. better.

My evaluations haven't really looked a ton at Patriots tendencies and schemes, other than a few notes here and there. Patriot-specific scouting is a bit tougher.