why so quiet on the OL?

[K. Dog]

I don't pretend to be any kind of offensive scheme expert, but my sense was at the end of the season the only big weakness the Patriots had at all was in the OL (and maybe kicking).

It seemed like in the Houston game and in most of the Falcons game, the OL was not giving Brady much protection.

It also seems like there have been moves and talks about just about every position except the OL: RBs, receivers, CBs, DEs and so on.

1. Was the OL a big problem in the Houston game and the Falcons game?
2. If so, why isn't much being said or done about it?

I've heard it's a weak OL draft, so I just don't get what the OL strategy is, assuming (1) above is even accurate.

 

[luuked]

The strategy is to let Scar do his thing. It worked pretty well overall last year.

Also don't blame the OL for every pressure or sack. Many of them are also caused by our WRs not getting open in the expected time. So the acquisition of Cooks by itself will hopefully already alleviate some of the pressure on the OL.

 

[supafly]

The strategy is to let Scar do his thing. It worked pretty well overall last year.

Also don't blame the OL for every pressure or sack. Many of them are also caused by our WRs not getting open in the expected time. So the acquisition of Cooks by itself will hopefully already alleviate some of the pressure on the OL.

Yep, I get the feeling that they like to have Scar hand picked new draft choices, then mold them from scratch. I expect selections at OT and IOL.

Also, he did a good job building some of the other players up last year, so I don't think it's necessarily a position that needs a ton of attention, myself.

 

[luuked]

Yep, I get the feeling that they like to have Scar hand picked new draft choices, then mold them from scratch. I expect selections at OT and IOL.

Also, he did a good job building some of the other players up last year, so I don't think it's necessarily a position that needs a ton of attention, myself.

Wish we'd get the inside information on the 2014/2015 OL drafts and who was in charge of the OL philosophy. There are enough whispers that Guge didn't really have a lot of say despite being the OL coach. Everybody has seen the pics of Scar working out prospects as well.

Really think the entire OL transition might have been one of the biggest blunders of BB in his time as Pats coach/GM. Especially looking how Mason is the only player left standing from those drafts.

 

[jmt57]

I think the primary reason for 'not hearing much' - ie, no acquisition - on the offensive line is that there is not much available on the free agent market that represents a good value (worth the cap money).

For example look at free agent guards.

Kevin Zeitler, 27 (went from Bengals to Browns)
5 years, $60 mil, $31 guaranteed, cap# $8.4 in 2017, $12.4 in 2018
He's a good player, but not worth the incremental increase in productivity for NE. For the Browns he's more worth it though, since he will be a big improvement to their feeble OL, and they have plenty of cap money to spend.

TJ Lang, 29 (from Packers to Lions)
3 years, $29 mil, $19 guaranteed, cap# $5.9 in 2017, $10.9 in 2018
Yes he is coming off his first Pro Bowl, but also coming off a foot injury.
The 2017 number looks good, but 2018 and 2019 not so much.

Ronald Leary, 28 (from Cowboys to Broncos)
4 years, $36 mil, $18.7 guaranteed; cap# 8.4 in 2017, $8.9 in 2018.
Broncos are using 5% of their cap on a player that was only about the #7 free agent at his position. Their OL was so bad they felt they had to overpay though.

Luke Joeckel, 25 (from Jaguars to Seahawks)
1 year, $8 mil, $7 mil gtd plus $1 mil in game day active bonuses.
Similar to Broncos, Seattle desperately needed help with their OL. Joeckel has been a huge bust when he does play, and missed a lot of time with injuries. This is the kind of guy BB picks up off the scrap heap to try to coach up and revive his career - but not at that price.

Brian Winters, 26 (re-signed with Jets)
4 years, $29 mil, $15 mil gtd; $8 mil cap#, 4.8% of Jets' 2017 cap.
We know the Jets OL wasn't that great, and Winters wasn't even the best player on that line - yet he's making this kind of money.



Looking at the money being handed out to guards it puts the Brandin Cooks trade into perspective from a value standpoint. How much better would the team actually be by signing one of these guards? Would it really be worth using that much cap space? Or would the Patriots be better off with a mid/late draft pick and a few undrafted rookie free agents while using the money elsewhere?

 

[50-yard-line]

With Tre Jackson's release, the Pats certainly need to do something on the OL. They're very thin, except at tackle - I haven't heard that either Waddle or Fleming can kick inside.

 

[BTTA]

Been thinking about this, too. It appears that a strategy of finding diamonds in the rough (or at least semi precious gems) through a scouting process that includes Scar's personal assessment, then drafting them in later rounds and developing them to be good players over a couple of years, is where the team is at on this. I still want to see the LT of the future on the team now, as opposed to later, but that's probably just not realistic.

The strategy is to let Scar do his thing. It worked pretty well overall last year.

Yep, I get the feeling that they like to have Scar hand picked new draft choices, then mold them from scratch. I expect selections at OT and IOL.

 

[50-yard-line]

Been thinking about this, too. It appears that a strategy of finding diamonds in the rough (or at least semi precious gems) through a scouting process that includes Scar's personal assessment, then drafting them in later rounds and developing them to be good players over a couple of years, is where the team is at on this. I still want to see the LT of the future on the team now, as opposed to later, but that's probably just not realistic.

They must think Solder is sticking around.

 

[maineman209]

I think the primary reason for 'not hearing much' - ie, no acquisition - on the offensive line is that there is not much available on the free agent market that represents a good value (worth the cap money).

For example look at free agent guards.

Kevin Zeitler, 27 (went from Bengals to Browns)
5 years, $60 mil, $31 guaranteed, cap# $8.4 in 2017, $12.4 in 2018
He's a good player, but not worth the incremental increase in productivity for NE. For Browns he's more worth it since he will be a big improvement to their OL.

TJ Lang, 29 (from Packers to Lions)
3 years, $29 mil, $19 guaranteed, cap# $5.9 in 2017, $10.9 in 2018
Yes he is coming off his first Pro Bowl, but also coming off a foot injury.
The 2017 number looks good, but 2018 and 2019 not so much.

Ronald Leary, 28 (from Cowboys to Broncos)
4 years, $36 mil, $18.7 guaranteed; cap# 8.4 in 2017, $8.9 in 2018.
Broncos are using 5% of their cap on a player that was only about the #7 free agent at his position. Their OL was so bad they felt they had to overpay though.

Luke Joeckel, 25 (from Jaguars to Seahawks)
1 year, $8 mil, $7 mil gtd plus $1 mil in game day active bonuses.
Similar to Broncos, Seattle desperately needed help with their OL. Joeckel has been a huge bust when he does play, and missed a lot of time with injuries. This is the kind of guy BB picks up off the scrap heap to try to coach up and revive his career - but not at that price.

Brian Winters, 26 (re-signed with Jets)
4 years, $29 mil, $15 mil gtd; $8 mil cap#, 4.8% of Jets' 2017 cap.
We know the Jets OL wasn't that great, and Winters wasn't even the best player on that line - yet he's making this kind of money.



Looking at the money being handed out to guards it puts the Brandin Cooks trade into perspective from a value standpoint. How much better would the team actually be by signing one of these guards? Would it really be worth using that much cap space? Or would the Patriots be better off with a mid/late draft pick and a few undrafted rookie free agents while using the money elsewhere?

Great recap of what happened with OL in FA this year! Thanks!

The follow-up point for me is that - given the evident desperation on the pat of some teams in FA - it seems possible that we'll see more OL reached for in the first two rounds of this draft than the experts have been projecting, despite the poor quality evals.

The caveat from a Pats draft perspective (for me) is that they have yet to work out an extension for Solder and don't have a lot of OT depth - only Fleming (who might be adequate in the short term), and Waddle (who has experience and has maybe improved over his performance in Detroit after a full season with Scar's tutelage).

So, it seems possible to me that the Pats might select, say, Garcia in the 3rd or Davenport in the 4th, but they could just as easily wait until the 2018 draft.

For interior OL, the Pats appear to have a lot of decent bodies on the roster who they can get by with, and Andrews is only RFA in 2018. So I don't see them adding more than 2-3 UDFAs - or possibly a 7th - to refresh Scar's developmental stock.

 

[50-yard-line]

For interior OL, the Pats appear to have a lot of decent bodies on the roster who they can get by with, and Andrews is only RFA in 2018. So I don't see them adding more than 2-3 UDFAs - or possibly a 7th - to refresh Scar's developmental stock.

Other than Mason, Thuney, and Andrews, who?

Is Karras any good?
I liked Barker in preseason last year, but is he NFL level?

Who else do they have?

 

[maineman209]

They must think Solder is sticking around.

Maybe.

They've had some pre-draft contact with Ramczyk (out of reach), Rod Johnson, Garcia and Sam Tevi, and Scar personally worked out Davenport and a couple Centers. However, the conclusion may well have been "not really worth it" and they already have a potential Solder-replacement in mind for the 2018 draft in case they can't get an extension done with Solder later this season.

 

[farn]

I am not "down" on the OL. The starting five is fine.

I am, however, hoping the depth is improved. I'd be very concerned if Cannon (I know, it's weird to even say it) or Solder were to miss significant time. Further, while Cannon is signed, Solder isn't - as of now - for a many years going forward. A lack of a top pick might make getting the next LT difficult.

 

[maineman209]

Other than Mason, Thuney, and Andrews, who?

Is Karras any good?
I liked Barker in preseason last year, but is he NFL level?

Who else do they have?

Barker has been at least a competent PS/scout team guy for three seasons, although I think that he's now used up his PS eligibility. So, it's probably make-or-break for him in 2017.

They kept Karras on the 53-man all last season (which maybe says something about his future potential - and maybe it doesn't), and they have Chase Ferris and Jamil Douglas left over from the 2016 PS.

Although it's not often that a guy "graduates" from the PS to a full-time role on the 53-man (the PS is really more a scout team than it is a developmental stash), Wendell, Neal and a couple other OL have made the leap in the past, so it's possible that the IOL situation is already well-covered in the opinion of Scar and the coaching staff.

 

[BlueThunder]

It's kind of funny that the fan base here is thinking ahead like BB does...........The "We are OK now, but what about 2018,2019" mentality.

 

[farn]

It's kind of funny that the fan base here is thinking ahead like BB does...........The "We are OK now, but what about 2018,2019" mentality.

It is Interesting. But Solder goes down & things get real. Fast.

 

[BlueThunder]

It is Interesting. But Solder goes down & things get real. Fast.

I am sure BB and Scar are working those situations as we type.

 

[JMC00]

With Tre Jackson's release, the Pats certainly need to do something on the OL. They're very thin, except at tackle - I haven't heard that either Waddle or Fleming can kick inside.

For all intents and purposes Tre Jackson was released last summer as he spent the entire season on PUP/IR.. So people can't sit here and honestly say releasing Tre Jackson thinned them at OL as they just went a whole season and won the SB without him.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

They re-signed Fleming who I think does a great job as the third tackle/extra TE. He also has held his own when subbing for an injured starting tackle.

I would look for a Solder extension this off-season. Cannon is already re-signed and the rest are all still on their rookie deals. I think the Pats only had to start 2 different OL combinations all last year. That is incredible (especially when you consider the year before). I'm guessing that SeaBass is retiring. I would look for the Pats to draft a tackle in the 3rd to 4th round range. But that would be just for a back-up, starting tackles you get in the first or second round (I know, but Cannon would have been a first rounder if not for the cancer diagnosis at the combine).

If they don't extend Solder, then left tackle will be #1 on the Pats to do list in the 2018 draft.

 

[50-yard-line]

For all intents and purposes Tre Jackson was released last summer as he spent the entire season on PUP/IR.. So people can't sit here and honestly say releasing Tre Jackson thinned them at OL as they just went a whole season and won the SB without him.

Come on, that post doesn't deserve a red X.

The Pats got very lucky on the OL last year with minimal injuries. The depth on the IOL is non-existent. Any of those three go down early and they're scrambling.

 

[luuked]

It is Interesting. But Solder goes down & things get real. Fast.

That's true for essentially any LT in the league. The real problem is that an injury to Andrews or Mason could already become problematic.