PATS TRADE JAMIE COLLINS!!!

[DaBruinz]

I hear you, but wasn't it just last year BB was praising him. Even said we are lucky to have him on our team? I get what you're saying though, just trying to digest this still.

And a lot has happened since last year when Belichick was praising him.
- Supposedly turned down $11M/year while wanting $19M/year
- Supposedly started free-lancing. (See the Matt Chatham link)
- Was burned badly against Denver when he was supposed to be in coverage against Owen Daniels. BB made a comment about the coverage in his press conference about it.
Bill Belichick 1/24: 'Our guys fought to the very end'
- Supposedly got in a heated argument with Matt Patricia.
- Supposedly wasn't buying into the team defensive strategy.
- Supposedly told the Patriots he wasn't going to re-sign with the team.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Aye, but Giardi basically is saying the same

Giardi is 50/50 too but I tend to believe them both.

Contract talks stalled. Then shut down. BB went to Plan B and started collecting LBs

 

[IllegalContact]

How Loyko gets his information is sketchy...

but it does reek of collins being 'checked out' ..... a mentality that is deemed cancerous to the way of doing things here....if his play was declining to boot, you could see where this could drag some of the youth around here down

BB works the 'between the ears' thing across the roster as a whole as much as by the individual......my guess is from what he has seen from roberts and then van noy and mingo is they will see an opportunity and do their job here which will wind up working out quite well

 

[IllegalContact]

And a lot has happened since last year when Belichick was praising him.
- Supposedly turned down $11M/year while wanting $19M/year
- Supposedly started free-lancing. (See the Matt Chatham link)
- Was burned badly against Denver when he was supposed to be in coverage against Owen Daniels. BB made a comment about the coverage in his press conference about it.
Bill Belichick 1/24: 'Our guys fought to the very end'
- Supposedly got in a heated argument with Matt Patricia.
- Supposedly wasn't buying into the team defensive strategy.
- Supposedly told the Patriots he wasn't going to re-sign with the team.

I guess trading for Van Noy should have been seen as a sign

 

[SVN]

 

[SVN]

 

[Sciz]

Lombardi saying the Pats never offered Collins 11M.

Sounds like semantics to me. When you value a guy at $11 million and he wants 19, then there's no point in actually making an "offer."

 

[DaBruinz]

Lombardi saying the Pats never offered Collins 11M.

How would Lombardi know. He left the Patriots in mid-June. They could have easily made an offer he wouldn't know about after he left.

 

[PF_SU]

Sounds like semantics to me. When you value a guy at $11 million and he wants 19, then there's no point in actually making an "offer."

I agree. And $11 million is a very reasonable valuation for Collins. Of course that alone is doing nothing since the guaranteed part is the key, but of all 4-3 LBs only Kuechly is making more than $11 million average (and he's got like over 40% guaranteed, Bobby Wagner and Navorro Bowman only have around 20% guaranteed).

How would Lombardi know. He left the Patriots in mid-June. They could have easily made an offer he wouldn't know about after he left.

I'd say it's semantics. Patriots valued him at $11 million max, but since Collins was never going to take the offer it never materialised as actual "offer".

 

[SVN]

For the record, Lombardi was trashing the whole Patriots defense:

“And so I think at some point they have to send a message to the rest of the team. Their defense is a liability right now. I mean, they’ve made quarterbacks, whether it’s Tyrod Taylor, whether it’s Ryan Tannehill, whether it’s Landry Jones, they’ve made them look pretty good and I think Bill needed to send a message to the team that this is not going to be tolerated and I think this trade does that.”

“I mean, look, he’s [Collins] not going to play any harder for the Browns. He’s not going to do anything. He just did not play well. I watched the game tape this morning and their defense just sticks on blocks, I mean it’s not very good. They’re not playing with any physicality or emotion. And when they play against a good team, they are going to have trouble. And as good as the offense is playing, you can’t score 30 every week to win.”

“The defense hasn’t played well ever. I mean, it hasn’t played well all season. I mean, the people are like, you know, I go on these shows and talk about it, and it’s only because they’re able to outscore people. I mean, Andy Dalton was playing well against them. I mean, every quarterback, the second half of the Miami game, Tyrod Taylor, the Buffalo Bills moved the ball on them. It was just the end of the half and Brady was just too good. They have to fix the defense. They’re not going to Houston to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl with the way the defense has been playing, I can promise you that.”

Yeah, I find his take on the entire defense telling.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

There is that assumption on your part again.

Repeat after me. There is no guarantee the Patriots would have gotten a compensatory pick for Collins. Not when they have 16 UFAs going into the 2017 off-season. Not when they have $60M in free cap space.

That is exactly why they would get one. Look does anyone here think the Pats are going to sign a Free Agent with an average annual salary above 10 million? Anyone? That is what Collins is looking for and someone will give it to him. There is no way that the Pats retain the all of the 14 UFA's they are going to have this off season. Most will get signed elsewhere. and no 5 2 million a year players do not cancel out losing 1 10 million dollar one, the salaries have to be comparable. The only way you don't get comp is if they sign more UFA then they lose, which is highly doubtful considering they already have 38 players under contract for next year and 10 draft picks. Also keep in mind that all signings do not count for or against the calculations for comp picks, the player lost or signed has to be a true UFA, not a RFA, or a player cut by his former team.

THE ONLY WAY THAT THIS MOVE MAKES SENSE IS THAT THE PATS EXPECT TO LOSE MORE THAN 4 HIGH PRICED UFAs NEXT YEAR!!

So maybe this move doesn't mean that the Pats are going to resign Hightower, Sheard, Bennett, etc. Maybe BB is looking at losing more than 4 UFAs and not signing that many. The NFL will only issue a max of 4 comp picks to any team.

FYI Butler will be a RFA, so if he signs elsewhere the Patriots would get the corresponding draft pick to what he will be tendered (which should be a #1), so he doesn't count in the comp pick formula.

 

[SVN]

 

[slash83]

How would Lombardi know. He left the Patriots in mid-June. They could have easily made an offer he wouldn't know about after he left.

Just passing along what I heard man

 

[slash83]

This guy is a Pats coach?

 

[RobertWeathers]

but it does reek of collins being 'checked out' ..... a mentality that is deemed cancerous to the way of doing things here....if his play was declining to boot, you could see where this could drag some of the youth around here down

BB works the 'between the ears' thing across the roster as a whole as much as by the individual......my guess is from what he has seen from roberts and then van noy and mingo is they will see an opportunity and do their job here which will wind up working out quite well

Thats my growing sense as well .

If he was still with the program like Asante and other players in the middle of contract squabbles he'd still be here.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

That is exactly why they would get one. Look does anyone here think the Pats are going to sign a Free Agent with an average annual salary above 10 million? Anyone? That is what Collins is looking for and someone will give it to him. There is no way that the Pats retain the all of the 14 UFA's they are going to have this off season. Most will get signed elsewhere. and no 5 2 million a year players do not cancel out losing 1 10 million dollar one, the salaries have to be comparable. The only way you don't get comp is if they sign more UFA then they lose, which is highly doubtful considering they already have 38 players under contract for next year and 10 draft picks. Also keep in mind that all signings do not count for or against the calculations for comp picks, the player lost or signed has to be a true UFA, not a RFA, or a player cut by his former team.

THE ONLY WAY THAT THIS MOVE MAKES SENSE IS THAT THE PATS EXPECT TO LOSE MORE THAN 4 HIGH PRICED UFAs NEXT YEAR!!

So maybe this move doesn't mean that the Pats are going to resign Hightower, Sheard, Bennett, etc. Maybe BB is looking at losing more than 4 UFAs and not signing that many. The NFL will only issue a max of 4 comp picks to any team.

FYI Butler will be a RFA, so if he signs elsewhere the Patriots would get the corresponding draft pick to what he will be tendered (which should be a #1), so he doesn't count in the comp pick formula.

Not 100% correct. If you sign the same exact number of UFAs that you lose, it cancels out as well. You could lose 3 UFAs who each sign $12m/year contracts and sign 3 UFAs who each sign $2m/year contracts, and it cancels out 100%. The OverTheCap link quoted earlier explains that. In that specific scenario, it's possible that they could obtain a single 7th round "value" compensatory pick after the other ones, if the values of the contract difference exceeds the threshold and if there are any comp picks available (only the top 32 qualifying comp picks are assigned, any excess beyond that does not receive compensation).

You'll note that the Patriots have been bargain-basement hunting the last few years. Almost exclusively all of the free agents they've signed have been RFAs (Hogan, the attempt at Sanders in 2013) or players cut by other teams. It's certainly possible they like this year's potential UFA class a lot better and intend to be active participants. Not saying it is guaranteed to be the case, but it could be part of the thought process.

 

[brdmaverick]

I just don't get the crowd with the reaction of "it's no big deal, he wasn't playing well" stance.

I'll concede that he must have done something to force BB's hand, but it's sad from a fan perspective b/c it still hurts the team.

Obviously this was a more extreme situation, but when we let Hernandez go we all knew the move had to be made. It was still sad from a fan perspective that he did those things b/c it obviously hurt the product on the field. He was a good player that obviously HAD to go for reasons outside of his talent/abilities.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Here's another question, why did the Browns make this trade? They are 0-8, in desperate need of a QB, so they need to tank this season, why trade for a LB who is destined to hit the open market after 8 games? It truly makes not sense! Granted if Collins does leave, the Browns will most likely get a higher comp pick than the 2018 4th rounder they have to send to the Pats, but why make the trade? If Collins is demanding 111 mil a year as reported, and doesn't like the cold weather, why would anyone stay in Cleveland?

This whole thing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The only thing Collins can do for the Browns over the next 8 games is screw up their draft position by actually making game changing plays.

 

[PF_SU]

I just don't get the crowd with the reaction of "it's no big deal, he wasn't playing well" stance.

Where is that crowd? I don't see it.

 

[upstater1]

On the radio I heard this morning that the pick is a conditional 2nd or 3rd. Probably a 3rd if they don't sign him longterm or franchise him. A 2nd if they sign him.

Getting the 33rd pick in the draft changes everything in terms of a valuation of this trade.

And if the Patriots win the Super Bowl and end up with the 33rd pick, then obviously this is genius.

I also believe that the Browns, at the very least, have to franchise Collins in order to justify this trade.