PATS TRADE JAMIE COLLINS!!!

[PF_SU]

Yea I saw/heard that.

According to reports, if BB was willing to give him$11m/yr then he was willing to tolerate it.

When you look at all the clues, the 236 linebackers on the team, his uneven play and now the major gap in the contract discussions, BB saw this coming. With that said, he also could have been making those moves to lessen the blow if Hightower also splits.

Like you I'm also in the camp of trying to understand the reasoning behind the trade. It's not what I would've done, but Belichick the GM is not totally dumb. What I think may be plausible is:

1) In the off-season the Patriots made Collins an offer of $11 million per - which he rejected

2) Collins' always been a player with inconsistent effort level, but his overall talent is undeniable and when he's on he's playing like a top-3 LB in this league. So the Patriots, despite his inconsistency, were willing to pay him like that ($11 million per would be the second-highest average for a non-pass rushing LB behind Kuechly, of course the key part are the guarantees).

3) Collins does not like living in New England (was said by a couple people here for some time now), so the "Von Miller money" angle is just a way of him/his camp telling the Patriots that there's no way he'll stay here long-term (his agent in addition said yesterday that there were no serious contract discussions with the Patriots, so I think both sides quickly came to an understanding that this year would be Collins' last in NE).

4) This season Collins was not only inconsistent, but (perhaps with the contract situation in mind) he started freelancing, thus disrupting the defense.

5) In the last couple of weeks it got to a point then where Belichick had seen enough and concluded that with his current inconsistent effort level and his freelancing Collins was not a benefit to the team and decided to trade him.

 

[PatsFan92]

After going back and watching the play that Lombardi referenced of Collins "doing his own thing" or "freelancing" all I could hear was Belichick saying "SET THE EDGE, DO YOUR JOB" but there was Collins hitting a gap trying to get a stat... RB runs right around edge where he should be for 28 yard gain.

It's no secret. Belichick want's coachable football players that will follow instructions, not freakishly good athletes that put themselves before the team.

 

[RIpats88]

Please explain your rationale? If Collins is looking for big time money then he will sign a contract worth around 10+ million a year, which would garner the Pat's a 3rd round comp pick.

How is Cleveland's 4th rounder going to be better than that? And please remember that Collins is still on his rookie deal, he is make @ 1 mil a year, so his salary is cheap. No real cap savings maybe 500,000 at best. I just don't see the rationale for removing him from the team at this point.

the trade had nothing to do with $$ or picks....it had soley to do with performance. BB doesnt jettison someone 8 games into the season over $$. he does like he did with Jones and do it in the offseason.

Collins has immense talent, but the word from everywhere is that his effort lacked, and especially lacked this season. you cant have a guy who plays hard and follows the play 20% of the time and does what he wants the other 80% and refuses to follow the plays.

clearly BB thinks while a talent downgrade, someone like mingo or roberts going hard and following the plays 100% of the time is better than having collins do it 20%.

and this isnt just Lombardi. I have heard it from the media guys and analysists for weeks that Collins didnt look like he was giving effort out there. and was just sleepwalking.

 

[Sicilian]

After going back and watching the play that Lombardi referenced of Collins "doing his own thing" or "freelancing" all I could hear was Belichick saying "SET THE EDGE, DO YOUR JOB" but there was Collins hitting a gap trying to get a stat... RB runs right around edge where he should be for 28 yard gain.

It's no secret. Belichick want's coachable football players that will follow instructions, not freakishly good athletes that put themselves before the team.

I can't remember when or where I heard this, so take my memory with a grain of salt, but I recall a Belichick quote along the lines of, "If you're going to freelance, you better be right." I think he gives certain players a bit of leeway to change their assignment if they see something the coaches can't see from the sideline (Brady is obviously the extreme example of this), but if you keep guessing and keep putting yourself out of position, you lose that autonomy. I'm guessing Collins may have reached that point and kept doing it anyway.

 

[Kontradiction]

Like you I'm also in the camp of trying to understand the reasoning behind the trade. It's not what I would've done, but Belichick the GM is not totally dumb. What I think may be plausible is:

1) In the off-season the Patriots made Collins an offer of $11 million per - which he rejected

2) Collins' always been a player with inconsistent effort level, but his overall talent is undeniable and when he's on he's playing like a top-3 LB in this league. So the Patriots, despite his inconsistency, were willing to pay him like that ($11 million per would be the second-highest average for a non-pass rushing LB behind Kuechly, of course the key part are the guarantees).

3) Collins does not like living in New England (was said by a couple people here for some time now), so the "Von Miller money" angle is just a way of him/his camp telling the Patriots that there's no way he'll stay here long-term (his agent in addition said yesterday that there were no serious contract discussions with the Patriots, so I think both sides quickly came to an understanding that this year would be Collins' last in NE).

4) This season Collins was not only inconsistent, but (perhaps with the contract situation in mind) he started freelancing, thus disrupting the defense.

5) In the last couple of weeks it got to a point then where Belichick had seen enough and concluded that with his current inconsistent effort level and his freelancing Collins was not a benefit to the team and decided to trade him.

Hell, it may be all of those combined. I think the 28 yard run was the straw that finally broke Belichick's back.

 

[RobertWeathers]

For the record, Lombardi was trashing the whole Patriots defense:

“And so I think at some point they have to send a message to the rest of the team. Their defense is a liability right now. I mean, they’ve made quarterbacks, whether it’s Tyrod Taylor, whether it’s Ryan Tannehill, whether it’s Landry Jones, they’ve made them look pretty good and I think Bill needed to send a message to the team that this is not going to be tolerated and I think this trade does that.”

“I mean, look, he’s [Collins] not going to play any harder for the Browns. He’s not going to do anything. He just did not play well. I watched the game tape this morning and their defense just sticks on blocks, I mean it’s not very good. They’re not playing with any physicality or emotion. And when they play against a good team, they are going to have trouble. And as good as the offense is playing, you can’t score 30 every week to win.”

“The defense hasn’t played well ever. I mean, it hasn’t played well all season. I mean, the people are like, you know, I go on these shows and talk about it, and it’s only because they’re able to outscore people. I mean, Andy Dalton was playing well against them. I mean, every quarterback, the second half of the Miami game, Tyrod Taylor, the Buffalo Bills moved the ball on them. It was just the end of the half and Brady was just too good. They have to fix the defense. They’re not going to Houston to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl with the way the defense has been playing, I can promise you that.”

I think Lombardi is being overly dramatic here. He makes it sounds like they are the 49ers or the Saints giving up 30 a game.

Tyrod Taylor did nothing in the air on Sunday.

As of this morning....

3rd in the league in points allowed.
Since TB12s return they have allowed 35% 3rd down conversation rate.
10th in QB rating defense
last 3 games they are 9th in red zone d allowing 41%
3rd in points allowed per play behind SEA and MN.

Can they improve? Absolutely.

Have they played well this year? Emphatic yes.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

If Mack stays above 80% of his play for the Falcons the Browns will get a 3rd round compensatory pick. Right now he played 100% of the snaps. Of course he could get injured but apart from that go and do the math.

Hightower is more important to this defense than Collins or CJ. Many have been saying this for 2 years now and nothing changed. Add in DMac, Butler and a hot season by Chung and Brown and I don't see any lack of playmakers on our defense.

Macks salary is the 8th highest of those signed last off season, no way the NFL hands out more than 4-5 3rd round comp picks, let alone 8! It is just not going to happen, salary is the driving force behind the comp pick formula.

Please don't ever call McCourty a play maker it insults the definition of the word!

 

[RobertWeathers]

Like you I'm also in the camp of trying to understand the reasoning behind the trade. It's not what I would've done, but Belichick the GM is not totally dumb. What I think may be plausible is:

1) In the off-season the Patriots made Collins an offer of $11 million per - which he rejected

2) Collins' always been a player with inconsistent effort level, but his overall talent is undeniable and when he's on he's playing like a top-3 LB in this league. So the Patriots, despite his inconsistency, were willing to pay him like that ($11 million per would be the second-highest average for a non-pass rushing LB behind Kuechly, of course the key part are the guarantees).

3) Collins does not like living in New England (was said by a couple people here for some time now), so the "Von Miller money" angle is just a way of him/his camp telling the Patriots that there's no way he'll stay here long-term (his agent in addition said yesterday that there were no serious contract discussions with the Patriots, so I think both sides quickly came to an understanding that this year would be Collins' last in NE).

4) This season Collins was not only inconsistent, but (perhaps with the contract situation in mind) he started freelancing, thus disrupting the defense.

5) In the last couple of weeks it got to a point then where Belichick had seen enough and concluded that with his current inconsistent effort level and his freelancing Collins was not a benefit to the team and decided to trade him.

I didn't know Collins did not like the area. Hmmm.

I stop short of saying a player's effort was lacking unless I have concrete proof. I do believe his play was uneven. Some games hes the second coming of Ray Lewis. Some Monty Beisel.

 

[luuked]

Macks salary is the 8th highest of those signed last off season, no way the NFL hands out more than 4-5 3rd round comp picks, let alone 8! It is just not going to happen, salary is the driving force behind the comp pick formula.

Please don't ever call McCourty a play maker it insults the definition of the word!

You are wrong.

All the experts and especially Nick Korte who has predicted all compensatory picks for years perfectly well disagrees:

 

[brdmaverick]

But do any of you actually buy that? That noise feels more like fans piling on to try and defend the trade. We never heard anything bad about Collins before this, ever.

Why is Patricia untouchable, where is his responsibility in any of this? Chandler Jones and Collins? He's the head Defensive Coach and has some culpability in this too. Collins had sooo much versatility.ugh.

I agree. If he went on IR yesterday we'd all expressing frustration together but since he got shipped out it must have made perfect football sense, right? wrong, the defense lost one of its best players yesterday plain and simple

Whenever a guy gets shipped out of town the smear (sp) campaign begins so that we can try to make ourselves feel better.

 

[PatsFan92]

I would pay Hightower over JC just for this play alone. Lynch was going in for six and don't forget that he also made it with a bad shoulder.

 

[Sicilian]

I agree. If he went on IR yesterday we'd all expressing frustration together but since he got shipped out it must have made perfect football sense, right? wrong, the defense lost one of its best players yesterday plain and simple

Whenever a guy gets shipped out of town the smear (sp) campaign begins so that we can try to make ourselves feel better.

The difference there is that a player put on IR is one that the coaching staff wanted, and now can't have. Trading him (especially under these circumstances) leads me to believe BB thinks his team is better without him the rest of the year. Maybe they're not as talented, but he feels his TEAM is better. He may ultimately be wrong, but I don't think the differentiation is that hard to make. When a great coach CHOOSES to move on, most people are going to at least look for a reason why, not just bemoan the loss.

 

[brdmaverick]

I'm not saying this is the Patriot's fault (because it's more just 'the structure of the NFL') but you can kind of see why players like Collins, Butler, Hightower, and Chandler Jones would be upset. They are players making far less than their fair market value.

Sure, you are going to comeback and say that they aren't exactly living paycheck to paycheck......and no, they are not. But isn't it human nature to get pissed off if you make X and you see your peers making at least 3 times what you make even though you are doing a better job? Our knee jerk reaction is to ALWAYS vilify the player whenever a team vs. player conflict arises, but can you really blame them?

 

[PF_SU]

I didn't know Collins did not like the area. Hmmm.

Donta Hightower: modern linebacker superstar
PATS TRADE JAMIE COLLINS!!!

Two of those posts.

 

[brdmaverick]

When a great coach CHOOSES to move on, most people are going to at least look for a reason why, not just bemoan the loss.

But it's still sucks from the fan perspective if that reason is largely thought to be petty or non-football related. Because they couldn't either settle their differences or at least come to a mutual agreement our team is worse of talent wise.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

The difference there is that a player put on IR is one that the coaching staff wanted, and now can't have. Trading him (especially under these circumstances) leads me to believe BB thinks his team is better without him the rest of the year. Maybe they're not as talented, but he feels his TEAM is better.

I have no doubt Bill thinks Jamie wasn't "doing his job" and was doing whatever he wanted instead, to make flash plays for his contract and the end result is they're better without him. Not going to lie, though, I'm heartbroken that it came to this.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Donta Hightower: modern linebacker superstar
PATS TRADE JAMIE COLLINS!!!

Two of those posts.

@IcyPatriot has good intel.

I buy it.

 

[brdmaverick]

I'm surprised by some of the reaction here. I figured this message board would be a good place for us fans to 'vent together' but instead there are people who essentially want to call me an idiot b/c I can't see how losing Jamie Collins makes us better.

 

[Sicilian]

But it's still sucks from the fan perspective if that reason is largely thought to be petty or non-football related. Because they couldn't either settle their differences or at least come to a mutual agreement our team is worse of talent wise.

Agreed, though I do think in the end this comes down to football related reasons. Bill wants to know he can trust a guy to be where he's supposed to be and not wherever he wants to be. If he doesn't trust you to do that, he doesn't want you.

I have no doubt Bill thinks Jamie wasn't "doing his job" and was doing whatever he wanted instead, to make flash plays for his contract and the end result is they're better without him. Not going to lie, though, I'm heartbroken that it came to this.

I am too. I liked the potential that Collins brought, and there were skills he possessed that no one else on the team can match. In the end, this may have been a bad move. I'm just okay with the rationalization, assuming Collins wasn't 100% with the program.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Macks salary is the 8th highest of those signed last off season, no way the NFL hands out more than 4-5 3rd round comp picks, let alone 8! It is just not going to happen, salary is the driving force behind the comp pick formula.

The pick position is based on salary threshold, not salary among other people who signed. It does matter if there are 0 or 32 people above the threshold - if you meet the theshold, you get a 3rd rounder. Teams are starting to figure this out. You could have said last year, "there's no way there are going to be that many 6th round comp picks, that would mean there would be no 7th round comp picks and that doesn't happen!" And yet, it did happen.

For what it's worth, Mack is projected to be the 8th out of the 8 third round comp picks. So if they've underestimated the threshold, he'll be the first guy to be impacted.

But it can be boiled down this way: either the Patriots get pick 104 this year for Collins, or they get a guaranteed pick around 100-110 in 2018 for Collins. If they didn't trade him and he left as a free agent, they would get a nonguaranteed pick between 97-104 in 2018. The worst case scenario drop of 5-10 slots in the order can be viewed as the cost of the guarantee.