Please convince me that Simmons and/or Beason fit the Patriots system

[patsfan13]

we need an inside backer a lot more than outside. Bruschi isnt that good of a starter anymore if hes playing strongside..Vrabel is more of an OLB but can play inside..Thomas's skills are better for outside although he would be nie on inside..it limits his pass rush

Move Vrabel inside.

 

[Remix 6]

Move Vrabel inside.

hes already projected inside for this year.

 

[TripleOption]

My point exactly. Bruschi has 10 pounds on Beason. Big difference at ILB. Beason might be able to add bulk, but he is too small at his current weight.

One year in an NFL Strength program and Beason puts on 10-20 lbs.

He'd probably be 240+ going into camp.

 

[Rob0729]

yeah but its not all Vilma's fault..you need to have a good DL in front of you. Which we do.. plus u cant expect his 1st year to be so great in a 3-4 where hes never played. Thats why bringing in a rookie he doesnt need to start right away

It was in part Vilma's fault. The d-line had nothing to do with his problems shedding blocks from guards last year. Vilma struggled because he was too small to take on guards. If you watched him play, you would have seen that his size was a big problem for him against the run and rushing the passer. It wasn't all the d-line's fault.

Also, I don't buy into what Belichick says before the draft unless he follows through.

The fact of the matter is the Pats always go for bigger LBs. The OLBs are almost always over 260lbs (Colvin the lone exception) and the ILB always hover arounf 250lbs. Because of the two gap scheme, it makes it hard for smaller LBs to work well in our system. Size, instincts, and smarts are far more important than speed.

 

[thomas144]

I will be shocked if the Patriots do not draft Beason.

I realize that on paper they have little choice but to move Vrabel to ILB, but I think what they really want to do is draft Beason and keep Vrabel on the outside, but change his name to Willie McGinest.

 

[Rob0729]

One year in an NFL Strength program and Beason puts on 10-20 lbs.

He'd probably be 240+ going into camp.

Yeah, but what does that do to his playing ability. You add on weight to a smaller faster guy and he may slow down making what made him good not an asset anymore.

Also, not every guy can easily add 10-20 of muscle to their frame. Some can and some can't.

I don't know if Beason is one of these cases, but I would be weary of that and at his current weight, he probably wouldn't be successful in our system.

 

[Rob0729]

I will be shocked if the Patriots do not draft Beason.

I realize that on paper they have little choice but to move Vrabel to ILB, but I think what they really want to do is draft Beason and keep Vrabel on the outside, but change his name to Willie McGinest.

Why would you be shocked. Based on the Patriots past record and Belichick's statements that he feels that the college ranks do not produce LBs who are prepared to play in the Pats' system, the odds are still against the Pats taking a LB in the first round. But if they were ever going to do it, this would be the year.

Personally, I can see the Pats just as or more likely taking a guy like Jarvis Moss and convert him from DE to LB than taking a pure LB in the first round. In fact, don't be surprised if Moss is selected over Beason.

 

[AzPatsFan]

4-3 OLB are usually converted in an ILB in the 3-4 DEF. They could be interesting replacement to Bruschi at WILB. At that position, you don't need to be that big. Your main fonction include coverage, so you need someone with "athletism"

Of course, David Harris seems more ready to play at this position but he provide less upside than Timmons and Beason. I would be satisfied with Harris, but I would not dislike the potential of Beason and Timmons.

You are partially correct. It would be much more correct to say that 4-3 Strong OLBs are converted to 3-4 ILBs...

I do not feel that Harris has "less upside" than Beason or Timmons. Timmons can't play for the Patriots system. Beason has only one possible position and that is as a undersized WILB, (Tedy's position). Harris is well suited for the SILB 3-4 position; but he can also play the WILB (Tedy's) 3-4.

If you haven't noticed, but the Pats don't have lots of "probowl stars"; what they do have is lots of sold, red-chip, very good players. Harris projects to be exactly that. a solid, red-chip, very good, player.

 

[TripleOption]

Yeah, but what does that do to his playing ability. You add on weight to a smaller faster guy and he may slow down making what made him good not an asset anymore.

Also, not every guy can easily add 10-20 of muscle to their frame. Some can and some can't.

I don't know if Beason is one of these cases, but I would be weary of that and at his current weight, he probably wouldn't be successful in our system.

Utter rubbish. He would be fine. Miami has a good weight program, but he would easily add 10 lbs in the NFL.

And even at his current weight, he would be fine. 10 lbs is irrelevant. If he has technique, he can play at that weight. It's all leverage.

 

[Rob0729]

Utter rubbish. He would be fine. Miami has a good weight program, but he would easily add 10 lbs in the NFL.

And even at his current weight, he would be fine. 10 lbs is irrelevant. If he has technique, he can play at that weight. It's all leverage.

Right back at you! It is utter rubbish to think that adding 10 pounds will defintely not affect a player's speed. Of course it can. Also, it is utter rubbish to think that any player can easily add 10 lbs of muscle mass. Many players lose weight in the NFL and struggle to keep weight on and I am not just talking about linemen.

It isn't all about leverage. Leverage has some to do with it, but a when 235lb LB going against a 300lb guard it takes more than leverage to shed blocks.

 

[TripleOption]

Right back at you! It is utter rubbish to think that adding 10 pounds will defintely not affect a player's speed. Of course it can. Also, it is utter rubbish to think that any player can easily add 10 lbs of muscle mass. Many players lose weight in the NFL and struggle to keep weight on and I am not just talking about linemen.

It isn't all about leverage. Leverage has some to do with it, but a when 235lb LB going against a 300lb guard it takes more than leverage to shed blocks.

Oh. My. God.

"Most players lose weight in the NFL"

Utter CRAP.

It IS all about leverage. A 260 LB is useless if he has no technique. Of course, a 200 lbs ILB is useless but you are claiming that since he is 10 freaking lbs less than Bruschi he "can't play in our system"

Please stop, you make no sense.

 

[Rob0729]

Oh. My. God.

"Most players lose weight in the NFL"

Utter CRAP.

It IS all about leverage. A 260 LB is useless if he has no technique. Of course, a 200 lbs ILB is useless but you are claiming that since he is 10 freaking lbs less than Bruschi he "can't play in our system"

Please stop, you make no sense.

You know what is utter crap is you making up things I said. Where did I ever say MOST players lose weight? I defy you to find where I said that? Your credibility is shot!

It isn't all about leverage. You clearly don't have a clue. When you are giving up 60lbs to a guy, leverage isn't going to help you in most cases.

Please stop because you have zero credibility now. I look forward to see how you make up things I said.

 

[Remix 6]

It was in part Vilma's fault. The d-line had nothing to do with his problems shedding blocks from guards last year. Vilma struggled because he was too small to take on guards. If you watched him play, you would have seen that his size was a big problem for him against the run and rushing the passer. It wasn't all the d-line's fault.

Also, I don't buy into what Belichick says before the draft unless he follows through.

The fact of the matter is the Pats always go for bigger LBs. The OLBs are almost always over 260lbs (Colvin the lone exception) and the ILB always hover arounf 250lbs. Because of the two gap scheme, it makes it hard for smaller LBs to work well in our system. Size, instincts, and smarts are far more important than speed.

he got better as the season progressed. it takes time to adjust..because these kids arent used to shedding blocks and other things NFL or a 3-4 takes morep art in. With coaching you learn..you get stronger..you learn ways to shed and that makes you a better player. its part of progression.

Look at Beisel. He was 235-240 when he came to us..he was terrible..he looked like a *****, he seemed to turn away when contact came. Off season..he said he added 10 pounds of muscle or so..puts him around 245-250 . What happened? Same thing. I think in a 3-4 theres more important things than size. First..it requires you to be a tough person whos going to stick his nose into contact and fight a blocker and hit someone. If football is important to you and you work hard..i think any of these LBs can be a 3-4 ILB

 

[Rob0729]

By the way, you really don't have a clue about weight in the NFL. Ten pounds in the NFL can be huge depending on positions.

 

[Rob0729]

he got better as the season progressed. it takes time to adjust..because these kids arent used to shedding blocks and other things NFL or a 3-4 takes morep art in. With coaching you learn..you get stronger..you learn ways to shed and that makes you a better player. its part of progression.

And he struggled to shed blocks up to the very end. Vilma will never be a great LB in the 3-4. That is why there were rumors he was on the trading block. I don't think Mangini is convinced he can be a great player in the 3-4 either.

By the way, Vilma had more tackles in the first half of the year (69) than the second half (45). His only INT and tackle for a loss came in the first half of the year too.

 

[Remix 6]

And he struggled to shed blocks up to the very end. Vilma will never be a great LB in the 3-4. That is why there were rumors he was on the trading block. I don't think Mangini is convinced he can be a great player in the 3-4 either.

By the way, Vilma had more tackles in the first half of the year (69) than the second half (45). His only INT and tackle for a loss came in the first half of the year too.

"For me, it really doesn't matter which system I'm in as long as I'm put in a position to be successful," he said in his first interview of the offseason. "The last half of the season I started playing a lot better than the first half. I attributed that to getting used to the system, getting used to the 3-4."

rumors are rumors. like i said..give it time

 

[TripleOption]

You know what is utter crap is you making up things I said. Where did I ever say MOST players lose weight? I defy you to find where I said that? Your credibility is shot!

It isn't all about leverage. You clearly don't have a clue. When you are giving up 60lbs to a guy, leverage isn't going to help you in most cases.

Please stop because you have zero credibility now. I look forward to see how you make up things I said.

Sorry, I guess you said MANY, which is still crap.

I also said that if you were giving up 60 lbs, you would lose but the 10 lbs you are harping on? No way.

You have zero credibility because you don't know what you are talking about. You are a stat maniac, thinking a guy can't play because of 10 lbs. That's horrible.

 

[TripleOption]

By the way, you really don't have a clue about weight in the NFL. Ten pounds in the NFL can be huge depending on positions.

Technique is much more important. If you think a guy should be filed away under "can't play" because of 10 lbs, you are ridiculously ignorant.

 

[Rob0729]

Sorry, I guess you said MANY, which is still crap.

I also said that if you were giving up 60 lbs, you would lose but the 10 lbs you are harping on? No way.

You have zero credibility because you don't know what you are talking about. You are a stat maniac, thinking a guy can't play because of 10 lbs. That's horrible.

It isn't crap. You think it is crap because it goes against your arguement. Many players do lose weight in the NFL because their regiment changes and not every player can keep on weight when it happens.

I do know what I am talking about. Bruschi is considered too small for our system, but he makes up for it with technique and skills. You take off another 10LBs and it is even tougher. You just can't grasp that simple concept. We like our ILB to be around 250 lbs plus. Bruschi is at the low end of that spectrum.

Again, I never said Beason would definitely not add weight or definitely not fit into the system. I have said he probably wouldn't fit in the system and I don't know if he can definitely add 10 LBs and be as effective. I don't deal with absolutes with draft picks. Aparently you do.

You obviously have a man crush on Beason and want to shoot down anyone who might have a problem drafting him. If the Pats do draft him, I will trust Belichick and Pioli that they feel he can adapt. I just have concerns about his weight and in the Pats' system that is a legitimate concern.

 

[Remix 6]

if BB didnt feel they can fit..why would he bring them in? why ws he interested in Vilma and Sims?