Is loyalty to players a problem in New England?

[spacecrime]

To address the point of Morris and Welker, Morris was basically out of Miami anyway it went. With the expected return of Ricky Williams his salary would have been too high to warrant keeping him around. And as for Welker, I'll gladly take 2 draft picks for a player who proved to be a mediocre kick returner, horrible punt returner, and have no home run threat at all. In 3 years in Miami he scored 1 touchdown.

Well, there you go. You ask why the Pats have no loyalty and let players go? When only two Dolphins who were let go are mentioned, you get defensive and have reasons why they were let go, including the excellent reason that his salary was too high for what he provided.

Do you think only the Dolphins have reasons like this for letting players go?

This isn't rude, but is a legitimate question: Since you have excellent reasons why the Dolphins let players go, why do you then assume that when the Patriots let players go there it is not because of a good reason but because there is a problem with loyalty in New England.

I think if you just look at it as teams acquiring players and releasing players, you will not be pointing fingers at New England's "problem" with loyalty, but will see that this is how the league operates.

Just curious: How many current Dolphins were on the team five years ago? Five? Six? Less? Do you see this as the Dolphins having a problem with loyalty? Neither do we. Try to see things on a league scale rather than an "evil Pats cold-hearted front office" stance.

 

[danny88]

Well, there you go. You ask why the Pats have no loyalty and let players go? When only two Dolphins who were let go are mentioned, you get defensive and have reasons why they were let go, including the excellent reason that his salary was too high for what he provided.

Do you think only the Dolphins have reasons like this for letting players go?

This isn't rude, but is a legitimate question: Since you have excellent reasons why the Dolphins let players go, why do you then assume that when the Patriots let players go there it is not because of a good reason but because there is a problem with loyalty in New England.

I think if you just look at it as teams acquiring players and releasing players, you will not be pointing fingers at New England's "problem" with loyalty, but will see that this is how the league operates.

Just curious: How many current Dolphins were on the team five years ago? Five? Six? Less? Do you see this as the Dolphins having a problem with loyalty? Neither do we. Try to see things on a league scale rather than an "evil Pats cold-hearted front office" stance.[/QUOTE]


Aka jelousy of the pats success.

 

[DaBruinz]

Let me first begin by saying that I'm a Dolphins fan and have been since 1990. However, I'm also a football fan and am always up for a good conversation about any team. That's just an extended way of saying I'm not a troll.

Every team loses veteran players, it's unavoidable in the NFL but it seems as the Pats have lost more than anyone else over the past 5 seasons. And not just veterans but fan favorites and key players and in some cases marquee players. So my question is, is loyalty to the players a problem in New England? It seems like players are brought in, work out their contract, and then are let go on a regular basis. Vinatieri won 3 Super Bowls and was allowed to walk. Troy Brown has been with the Pats forever and they let him go.

So what I'd like to know is if this is really an issue. How do the fans feel about it and do you think it has an affect on acquiring free agents? Obviously it doesn't since you got Thomas and Stallworth. So it would seem players are willing to sacrifice job security to play for a winner. Is it the same feeling among fans? That as long as they're winning it doesn't matter who it is?

A few things.

1) Vinatieri did NOT win 3 SuperBowls. He was a part of 3 SB winning teams. So was McGinest. So was Bruschi, Vrabel and several others. Its about VALUE. Vinatieri chose to leave New England. The Pats made him a fair offer and he "felt insulted" by it. Then signed with the Colts for just a few bucks more. Reality is that Vinatieri didn't want to be in New England anymore because his stats were suffering.

2) This team provides players with Job security as long as it fits within the scope of the team's value system. If it doesn't (ala Daniel Graham and Willie McGinest) then the team will let you seek greener pastures. Though few have found success in those pastures.

3) The Pats didn't "let Troy go." The previous extension he had signed an extension with a bogus year in it that would have required the Pats to pay him well over 5 million. Troy didn't offer that sort of value and he knew it. They attempted to get a deal done prior to last year's free agency and couldn't. The Pats brought him back and he got a good deal from the team. Also, at least one team sponsor game him a very lucrative advertising contract as well.

4) The Pats philosophy on positions is that they will spend a certain amount on each position. If you are willing to fit into that philosophy, then they will treat you right. If not, you are free to go somewhere else without any hard feelings. It has worked for the Patriots. They don't play favorites. And part of their philosophy is that htey would rather release a player one year too early than 1 year too late. Its a philosophy that many fans understand and support.

 

[fgssand]

Has proven to be better to let a player go a year too early rather than a year too late:

Exception: TROY BROWN

 

[DaBruinz]

To address the point of Morris and Welker, Morris was basically out of Miami anyway it went. With the expected return of Ricky Williams his salary would have been too high to warrant keeping him around. And as for Welker, I'll gladly take 2 draft picks for a player who proved to be a mediocre kick returner, horrible punt returner, and have no home run threat at all. In 3 years in Miami he scored 1 touchdown.

No offense, but your evaluation of Welker is pure garbage and shows a lack of knowledge of the game in general.

Miami's kick return blocking was some of the WORST in the league. As was their punt return blocking. Its why Miami led the league in fair catches with 29. That was 6 more than anyone else. Welker had a 9.2 punt return avg. Considering the inordinate number of fair catches he had to make, that is still a pretty damn good average.

Also, Welker scored 2 TDs in Miami. One on a kick-off return in his rookie year and one receiving TD. But considering he is a 5'9 slot receiver, that is hardly surprisinig. Miami tended to go to McMichael and Chambers in the red zone. So, how can you hold that against Welker? You can't if you know anything about the way the game of football is played.

Also, out of Welkers 67 receptions, 33 of them went for 1st downs. That is pretty good considering how poor the Maimi QB situation was last year.

As for your last question, I never said that I put more of a premium on fan favorite players. I was just stating that the Pats release a lot of fan favorites. Which is why I asked if fans are willing to accept that their favorite players aren't going to be around for long. And if that was okay with them as long as the team is winning.

Do you know how many "fan favorites" the Pats have released in the past 5 years? Here, count them. Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, Troy Brown, Corey Dillon.

Milloy refused to restructure his contract to help the Patriots out of a jamb that a rash of injuries caused just before the start of the 2003 season. It also didn't help Milloy that in 2002, he had his worst season as a professional.

Ty Law asked for his release when the Patriots and he couldn't reach an agreement on a contract extension. Ty Law was attempting to recover from a Lis Franc injury. Law was 31 at the time of his release.

Willie McGinest, 34, asked for his release after the Pats and he couldn't come to an agreement on restructuring his contract. McGinest had lost a step and he wasn't the pass rusher that the Pats were used to seeing.

Troy Brown was 34 prior to the start of free agency last year and the Pats and he couldn't reach a deal to restructure his contract. The Pats released him, but continued to try and work out a deal. Troy returned last year after a heart to heart with his son who didn't want to see him in any uniform other than a Pats uniform. Troy Brown is recovering from knee surgery currently and his status is uncertain for the season.

Corey Dillon quickly won the hearts of the Pats faithful. He spent 3 good years here. However, the Pats decided it was time to part ways as they clearly felt that Dillon wasn't able to bring his A game anymore. Rumor has it that Dillon's agent had also asked for Dillon's release so that Dillon could retire. That rumor remains unconfirmed.

Now, If you are talking about players like Joe Andruzzi, David Patten, Ted Washington, Tom Ashworth, David Givens and Adam Vinatieri, only Vinatieri and Andruzzi were truly fan favorites. But they all left for greener pastures. Plain and simple.

 

[miDeuce]

Is a Dolphins fan really asking what the problems are with OUR organization? Dude, worry about your own team, any team that has won 3 out of the past 6 superbowls and been to 4 of the last 6 AFC Championships (essentially the Super Bowl) doesn't need to be worried about. Especially by an organization that still doesn't have a quarterback and whose key free agent signing just went ape$hit in a Las Vegas casino. Figure that out then start worrying about us.

 

[RayClay]

Let me first begin by saying that I'm a Dolphins fan and have been since 1990. However, I'm also a football fan and am always up for a good conversation about any team. That's just an extended way of saying I'm not a troll.

Every team loses veteran players, it's unavoidable in the NFL but it seems as the Pats have lost more than anyone else over the past 5 seasons. And not just veterans but fan favorites and key players and in some cases marquee players. So my question is, is loyalty to the players a problem in New England? It seems like players are brought in, work out their contract, and then are let go on a regular basis. Vinatieri won 3 Super Bowls and was allowed to walk. Troy Brown has been with the Pats forever and they let him go.

So what I'd like to know is if this is really an issue. How do the fans feel about it and do you think it has an affect on acquiring free agents? Obviously it doesn't since you got Thomas and Stallworth. So it would seem players are willing to sacrifice job security to play for a winner. Is it the same feeling among fans? That as long as they're winning it doesn't matter who it is?

Your whole premise is not correct, so it would be hard to argue.

NFL players have no job security.

How's the job security for QBs over there in meyeameye?

Offensive linemen? Running backs?, (pass the dutchie)

What I'm trying to say is other teams are constantly losing players because of bad judgement. Many teams screw up financially and are forced to ditch valuable players because of the cap.

When teams are forced to do things because they screwed up, people feel sorry for them.

When companies usually make good judgements and let players leave when they get big offers from other teams that are much more than their real value, their cold and calculating.

 

[Rob0729]

Let me first begin by saying that I'm a Dolphins fan and have been since 1990. However, I'm also a football fan and am always up for a good conversation about any team. That's just an extended way of saying I'm not a troll.

Every team loses veteran players, it's unavoidable in the NFL but it seems as the Pats have lost more than anyone else over the past 5 seasons. And not just veterans but fan favorites and key players and in some cases marquee players. So my question is, is loyalty to the players a problem in New England? It seems like players are brought in, work out their contract, and then are let go on a regular basis. Vinatieri won 3 Super Bowls and was allowed to walk. Troy Brown has been with the Pats forever and they let him go.

So what I'd like to know is if this is really an issue. How do the fans feel about it and do you think it has an affect on acquiring free agents? Obviously it doesn't since you got Thomas and Stallworth. So it would seem players are willing to sacrifice job security to play for a winner. Is it the same feeling among fans? That as long as they're winning it doesn't matter who it is?

The Pats are about competiting for the Super Bowl every year, not rewarding veterans beyond their value. Yes, the Pats could pay Branch, McGinest, etc. what they wanted, but it would open more holes.

Personally, I think Miami needs to be less loyal to their seasoned veterans. They should have traded Thomas and Taylor while they had trade value and built up the entire team. Besides, the Dolphins have had quite a bit of turnover the last few years. They basically blew up their secondary and o-line last year. They have had a different starting QB each of the last three years.

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

Is a Dolphins fan really asking what the problems are with OUR organization? Dude, worry about your own team, any team that has won 3 out of the past 6 superbowls and been to 4 of the last 6 AFC Championships (essentially the Super Bowl) doesn't need to be worried about. Especially by an organization that still doesn't have a quarterback and whose key free agent signing just went ape$hit in a Las Vegas casino. Figure that out then start worrying about us.

I get the feeling the op was sour-grape-ish in it's intent. If only the ruthless,unfeeling,evil Patriots had held onto many of the players mentioned in this thread (therefore showing mega-loyalty and a good heart),they wouldn't have dipped into the well known as the Miami Dolphins

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

A couple of years ago I saw a show discussing the old days of football,where teams stayed together for the entirety. When a player signed with a team,he stayed with that team until the end of his career.

It was pretty interesting in that the point was made that one reason for this trend was the fact they made so little money back then.

 

[satz]

NFL is a business build to make money for all owners.Not for 1 team to dominate and make money....

It`s a great business model formed where your next generation of customer born into due to their previous generation.So please do understand this question.This business makes all his customers believe it does not exist and has been successfull.

so questions like this brings a smile always ....

satz

 

[Mainefan]

To be really honest about it, it hurts whenever one of our favorite Patriots leaves, even if it's for an excellent reason. We get to know these guys, admire them, respect them, understand what they're doing and why.

But as much as we may feel connected to these players, there is something we all want that transcends individual emotional attachments. We want the thrill of victory. There is nothing like it.

The Patriots' front office understands this completely. BB and SP have only one ambition: to win. They'd like to win with our favorite players. They'd like to win big. They'd like to win with style. All of that is nice, even desirable. But in reality, any kind of win will do. We admire and trust BB and SP because no one does it better.

The truth is, every NFL fan feels this way about his team. We all want the not-so-vicarious feeling of winning, even if our only contribution is posting here and watching the games on TV. After all, when we talk of the Patriots, we say "we."

So, yes, it hurts when we lose a favorite player, for whatever reason. But we understand the reason, and the reason is always the same: to give us the best chance of winning.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

As was stated earlier in the thread while the Pats haven't lost the most players the players they've lost have been magnified by the success they enjoyed in New England the overall success of the Patriots in recent years. No need to get rude about things. I was just trying to ask a couple questions.

To address the point of Morris and Welker, Morris was basically out of Miami anyway it went. With the expected return of Ricky Williams his salary would have been too high to warrant keeping him around. And as for Welker, I'll gladly take 2 draft picks for a player who proved to be a mediocre kick returner, horrible punt returner, and have no home run threat at all. In 3 years in Miami he scored 1 touchdown.

As for your last question, I never said that I put more of a premium on fan favorite players. I was just stating that the Pats release a lot of fan favorites. Which is why I asked if fans are willing to accept that their favorite players aren't going to be around for long. And if that was okay with them as long as the team is winning.

my favorite players are brady, seymour , bruschi and brown and they've been here a long time. i'd prefer that to a team that would choose daunte culpepper over drew brees and would trade for risky williams.

 

[patsox23]

your a troll but good try .your question gave you away .

I don't think he is a troll, and I appreciate the fresh perspective. That said, I agree with the majority of the posters who aren't simply being knee-jerk nasty to the guy - EVERY team lets guys go. The Patriots just have a lot of well-known players and have been extremely fiscally wise in making some tough, and high-profile, choices.

 

[patsox23]

Well, there you go. You ask why the Pats have no loyalty and let players go? When only two Dolphins who were let go are mentioned, you get defensive and have reasons why they were let go, including the excellent reason that his salary was too high for what he provided.

Do you think only the Dolphins have reasons like this for letting players go?

This isn't rude, but is a legitimate question: Since you have excellent reasons why the Dolphins let players go, why do you then assume that when the Patriots let players go there it is not because of a good reason but because there is a problem with loyalty in New England.

I think if you just look at it as teams acquiring players and releasing players, you will not be pointing fingers at New England's "problem" with loyalty, but will see that this is how the league operates.

Just curious: How many current Dolphins were on the team five years ago? Five? Six? Less? Do you see this as the Dolphins having a problem with loyalty? Neither do we. Try to see things on a league scale rather than an "evil Pats cold-hearted front office" stance.

I don't know that I disagree with what you're saying here, but LOL, why do you get so harsh about it?

 

[khayos]

As was stated earlier in the thread while the Pats haven't lost the most players the players they've lost have been magnified by the success they enjoyed in New England the overall success of the Patriots in recent years. No need to get rude about things. I was just trying to ask a couple questions.

To address the point of Morris and Welker, Morris was basically out of Miami anyway it went. With the expected return of Ricky Williams his salary would have been too high to warrant keeping him around. And as for Welker, I'll gladly take 2 draft picks for a player who proved to be a mediocre kick returner, horrible punt returner, and have no home run threat at all. In 3 years in Miami he scored 1 touchdown.

As for your last question, I never said that I put more of a premium on fan favorite players. I was just stating that the Pats release a lot of fan favorites. Which is why I asked if fans are willing to accept that their favorite players aren't going to be around for long. And if that was okay with them as long as the team is winning.

Let's see... Jay Fielder... Sam Madison... Sammy Knight

 

[jct]

Is loyalty from players a problem in New England?

Already a lot of great responses from previous posters.
For myself, Loyalty means alot. I am very loyal.
But I value loyalty to the team first, then to players.
Thats why you have to love that our managers here can be cold and calculating and consistantly produce the best results.
I waited 40 years to have a winner, now we are reaping the fruit.
The only person who could ask such a dumb question really has to be a jealous non fan of our team.
Let's turn the question around: Is loyalty from players a problem in New England.
1)See Branch,Milloy,Vinatraitor,Givens,Law etc
I say no.
Hey it is also a business and these guys have to take care of themselves first,
they know that they can make money or make history the choice is theirs.
But if you look at the contracts signed this year, people come here at a discount because we have a winning system and that my friends is priceless.
Imagine this fictious statement from Coach Belichik to A Thomas at the Pro Bowl: " With just a little tweaking you have Hall of Fame in your future"
I ask you who doesn't want to be the best ever?
Is the difference of a few millions worth being a living legend aka Lawrence Taylor a guy who defines the position?
Of course we signed him with a great value hometown discount of course we picked up other great FAs at great values.
They want to win.
They know that the best do play in New England.
But sadly if you were from Florida what else could you do to find happiness except to come to a New England board and question the best system in Sports.
Thank You for the laugh.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Glad to see that losing fan favorites is no problem for the Phins since once the players leave they become mediocre no-talent bums, re: Welker. Talk about two-faced.

If you look at which teams improved themselves the most this year it has to be the Patriots. Considering that the incoming talent in 2007 is much greater than the outcoming talent I'd consider the Pats model to be a success. And who knows even before that we were only a minute and a half away from making it to the Superbowl.

In the salary cap era every team has turnover including the Pats. The Pats brass has the stones to cut veterans once their productivity looks like it will decline or if teams overpay for our free agents.
Do you think the Titans regret overpaying for David Givens now? How about the Redskins who recently cut Patten after signing him to a fat contract?

Players who leave New England know it is a business. Loyalty is not the problem. The problem is that they have already won a ring and now they want to get paid. And unless they are ELITE players, ie Seymour/Brady they aren't going to see that big payday here.

Why don't you examine the current state of the Dolphins and think to yourself, if we were making the playoffs every year and competing for the Superbowl every year would I think loyalty was a problem? Yeah, that's what I thought.

As was stated earlier in the thread while the Pats haven't lost the most players the players they've lost have been magnified by the success they enjoyed in New England the overall success of the Patriots in recent years. No need to get rude about things. I was just trying to ask a couple questions.

To address the point of Morris and Welker, Morris was basically out of Miami anyway it went. With the expected return of Ricky Williams his salary would have been too high to warrant keeping him around. And as for Welker, I'll gladly take 2 draft picks for a player who proved to be a mediocre kick returner, horrible punt returner, and have no home run threat at all. In 3 years in Miami he scored 1 touchdown.

As for your last question, I never said that I put more of a premium on fan favorite players. I was just stating that the Pats release a lot of fan favorites. Which is why I asked if fans are willing to accept that their favorite players aren't going to be around for long. And if that was okay with them as long as the team is winning.

 

[patriotspride]

I don't think he is a troll, and I appreciate the fresh perspective. That said, I agree with the majority of the posters who aren't simply being knee-jerk nasty to the guy - EVERY team lets guys go. The Patriots just have a lot of well-known players and have been extremely fiscally wise in making some tough, and high-profile, choices.

the guy is a troll hes a bs artist and you fell for it .the whole premise of the thread is bs and the troll knows it .