mg's March 15 Plan

[DaBruinz]

MG's March 15 Plan (draft per recent mock posted on draft site)

1) Sign Samuel to a long-term contract
2) Sign 2-3 veteran ILB's (Say Hartwell and Gardner)
3) Sign a jag veteran CB for camp (perhaps Mickens)
4) Extend Scott and Hawkins (cheap insurance for 2008)
5) Draft Poz and Leonard
6) Draft a CB, S and a QB in rounds 3, 4 and 4C
7) Draft some Practice Squad competition with late round picks
(chance for roster spot at CB, S and LB; could beat out Woods)
===============================================
Conclusions
A. Leonard is a major upgrade over Mills, and is insurance against injury.
B. I think we are fine at LB if we add Hartwell, Poz and Gardner, althoug Woods or Alexander could beat out Gardner.
C. The key the defensive backfield is extending Samuel.
D. Ugoh at #28 is an alternative for me.

We are on the same page for much of this. However, I have to disagree with a few things.

4) I think that Artrell Hawkins is going to get cut in camp. As others have said, he did really bad the 2nd half of the season. He's not a viable option at CB and he's become more of a liability at safety than he is helping.

Chad Scott can go as well. I don't see the need to extend him. He wasn't that effective when he was on the field. Heck, Mickens was seeing more time than Scott was. And the Pats could have used Scott out there against TEs like Clark, yet he was on the bench.

6) Sorry, but passing up DeOssie isn't an option. And why take a QB in the 4th round? Personally, I'd rather the Pats take DeOssie in the 3rd and used the 4th rounders on guys like Wendling and Piscatelli.

A) Leonard isn't being added to bump Mills from the team. He's being added to replace the skills the team lost when they cut Dillon and to compliment Maroney.

D) I don't think that Ugoh is an alternative at all. Things like not wanted to work out in the off-season and going through the motions are NOT things you want to see in a scouting report. And those are tired to Ugoh. Joe Staley would be a better option. Also, many people think that Ugoh is better suited for guard than OT.

 

[DaBruinz]

Brian Leonard
Height: 6-11/2 | Weight: 226 | 40-Time: 4.52

No way we use a 1st round pick on the exact same player we drafted last year

Mills
Height 6"1 Weight 235


I like a lot of your other moves.. Especially if we can catch Lightning in a bottle with Hartwell.. Here is a question, would we really draft a LB with a high pick if we bring in Hartwell? Wouldn't more value be building the secondary? I think there is better value there..

Except for a couple of things.
1) Leonard has actually been a RB and a FB. Mills has been neither.
2) Mills is considered an H-Back. A TE/FB combo in the mold of Chris Cooley.
3) Leonard would be the #2 RB long term.

 

[DaBruinz]

:wha: Can you please give me examples to look back on??!?!?! I mean I am sure he got beat, he isnt a bonafide starter, but I think he did a Hell of a Job, and is GREAT veteran Insurance for the backfeild... I'll take it a step further and say he was one of the reasons we were able to keep it toghter back there other than Samuel.

Getting to the actual Post... I like it. I can agreee that Pol, is small and all, but i am sure these are the same characteristics that people picked on as the Zach Thomas's and Bruschis came into the league

Denver play-off game in 2005. Just about any game in the 2nd half of the season of 2006.

 

[DaBruinz]

I dont know how a TE who could be used at Hback can be compared to a player who is in between RB and FB.
They are entirely different players.
I did get a nice laugh when someone said since they are about the same size, they are the same player. I guess we shouldnt have drafted Maroney because we had Patrick Pass.

Of course the argument that Mills sat on his @ss last year, so you cannot say any football player would be an upgrade because we haven't seen Mills is a beauty too.

Personally, Im not too warm to the idea of drafting Leonard, because I dont see a need, and because those kind of players are iffy. (He is saying he only wants to play RB, but he is probably better suited to FB.)
I think our backfield is set.
We have our starter in Maroney.
We have our 3rd down back in Faulk.
We have our backup/special teams guy in Morris.
We have a FB who can also run the ball from the 1back set in Evans.
There is no room for anyone else, and the players we have in those spots are all excellent options for their roles.

Sure it would be great to have Maroney, Shawn Alexander and LaDanian Tomlinson, and then sign Clinton Portis for insurance, but you build a football team with guys who fit their roles, not by expecting to get other teams starters to sit on your bench,

AJ -
Sorry, but the backfield isn't set. If it is, then the Patriots are going to be screwed again. Why? Because Faulk can't stay healthy. He's been injured every year for the past how many years?

At some point, you have to bring in a legitimate #2 guy. Morris isn't that. He's another FB/RB hybrid the way that Pass was. Leonard has the ability to be that legitimate #2 guy and become the 3rd down back as well. But do so while not having the pressure to perform instantly.

 

[mcsully]

Except for a couple of things.
1) Leonard has actually been a RB and a FB. Mills has been neither.
2) Mills is considered an H-Back. A TE/FB combo in the mold of Chris Cooley.
3) Leonard would be the #2 RB long term.

Point is Mills fits the point of being a player in the backfield and having the ability to catch and block.. Leonard isn't reguard as a RB in this draft, mainly as a FB (who is versatile but we have a good amt of players like that).

BTW they fit the same mold.. And I mentioned a couple of other players that fit the same mold as Leonard.. No need to draft him..

And your idea of him being the #2 RB long Term.. You don't use a high draft pick on a long term backup player.. No value there, especially when we could get a corner or safety..
That would be something the Lions would do..

 

[mcsully]

AJ -
Sorry, but the backfield isn't set. If it is, then the Patriots are going to be screwed again. Why? Because Faulk can't stay healthy. He's been injured every year for the past how many years?

At some point, you have to bring in a legitimate #2 guy. Morris isn't that. He's another FB/RB hybrid the way that Pass was. Leonard has the ability to be that legitimate #2 guy and become the 3rd down back as well. But do so while not having the pressure to perform instantly.

I agree with your point here.. Having a #2 Rb would strengthen everyones confidence.. We have some questions about injuries.. But leonard isn't the pick here.. He isn't a 3rd down back and has already stated he wants to be a rb not FB.. That might cause issues.. Hey if they guy falls to the 3rd round, yes.. But we need to spend those high picks to replenish the defense side of the ball (lB or db)..

As I said, I agree with you 100%... My gut tells me we bring in one more Vet to compete..

 

[Ring 6]

AJ -
Sorry, but the backfield isn't set. If it is, then the Patriots are going to be screwed again. Why? Because Faulk can't stay healthy. He's been injured every year for the past how many years?

At some point, you have to bring in a legitimate #2 guy. Morris isn't that. He's another FB/RB hybrid the way that Pass was. Leonard has the ability to be that legitimate #2 guy and become the 3rd down back as well. But do so while not having the pressure to perform instantly.

I think that Morris was brought in for exactly what you are asking for someone else to do.
I think it is unrealistic to expect to have a good starter, plus Kevin Faulk, who is one of the best 3rd down backs, and then have someone better than Sammy Morris who is a proven backup and part-time starter.

Prior to last year, when we drafted the RB of the future, we never had anyone close to as good as Morris behind the starter and Faulk.

I'm not sure who you expect to bring in to a role where you cannot be a starter or the 3rd down back and may not see more than a couple of carries a game, who is better than Morris.
I suppose you could do that through the draft, but to spend a first on a guy who unless there is an injury wont be on the field in the next 5 years seems unlikley to me,.

 

[DaBruinz]

I agree with your point here.. Having a #2 Rb would strengthen everyones confidence.. We have some questions about injuries.. But leonard isn't the pick here.. He isn't a 3rd down back and has already stated he wants to be a rb not FB.. That might cause issues.. Hey if they guy falls to the 3rd round, yes.. But we need to spend those high picks to replenish the defense side of the ball (lB or db)..

As I said, I agree with you 100%... My gut tells me we bring in one more Vet to compete..

People are seriouosly misquoting him. Leonard said that he lost the weight to run in the combine so that people would know he could still be a RB and was not JUST a FB. He's also come out and said he'll do whatever it takes for him to make a team.

Honestly, Leonard IS a 3rd down back. He can block. He can pick up blitzes. He can run routes out of the backfield and make catches. The difference is that he's not 5'9 and 200 lbs like Kevin Faulk is. And he's not a scat back like Kevin Faulk is. That doesn't mean he's not a 3rd down back.

With Leonard on the field at the same time as Maroney, defenses will have to be weary of Leonard getting the ball, not just of Maroney running it. I think that Leonard's abilities compliment those of Maroney's and that Leonard's abilitys allow him to be a different kind of 3rd down back.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Gotta agree with you Andy. Leonard might turn out to be a bruising stud but I can't justify spending another 1st round pick on a runningback when it's clear that Maroney is going to be our starter.

I also agree with another poster above that wants DeOssie with the 3rd rounder and maybe a project safety with a 4th rounder. DeOssie fills a need and has good bloodlines. Plus he would be brought along slowly as BB rarely, read (never) puts a rookie linebacker into the starting lineup and even more rarely drafts them high.

I'd rank our needs are ILB, S, CB respectively.
All other needs are depth and developmental needs that can be fulfilled on Day 2.
Plus I think it is fairly likely that BB signs another vet free agent ILB later. Seau is still out there, so are other vets like Hartwell and Kawika Mitchell.

I think that Morris was brought in for exactly what you are asking for someone else to do.
I think it is unrealistic to expect to have a good starter, plus Kevin Faulk, who is one of the best 3rd down backs, and then have someone better than Sammy Morris who is a proven backup and part-time starter.

Prior to last year, when we drafted the RB of the future, we never had anyone close to as good as Morris behind the starter and Faulk.

I'm not sure who you expect to bring in to a role where you cannot be a starter or the 3rd down back and may not see more than a couple of carries a game, who is better than Morris.
I suppose you could do that through the draft, but to spend a first on a guy who unless there is an injury wont be on the field in the next 5 years seems unlikley to me,.

I especially cannot justify picking Leonard with a first rounder when your justification is that he will be a 3rd down back. You simply don't spend 1st round picks on 3rd down backs. I don't care if he is Faulk version 2.0+. You don't.

Honestly, Leonard IS a 3rd down back. He can block. He can pick up blitzes. He can run routes out of the backfield and make catches. The difference is that he's not 5'9 and 200 lbs like Kevin Faulk is. And he's not a scat back like Kevin Faulk is. That doesn't mean he's not a 3rd down back.

 

[DaBruinz]

Point is Mills fits the point of being a player in the backfield and having the ability to catch and block.. Leonard isn't reguard as a RB in this draft, mainly as a FB (who is versatile but we have a good amt of players like that).

BTW they fit the same mold.. And I mentioned a couple of other players that fit the same mold as Leonard.. No need to draft him..

And your idea of him being the #2 RB long Term.. You don't use a high draft pick on a long term backup player.. No value there, especially when we could get a corner or safety..
That would be something the Lions would do..

Let me know whenn you actually start following the Patriots and not this fantasy version you seem to have.

1) Ben Watson. He debunks your theory of not using a high draft pick on a long term player back-up player. Watson would still be the #2 TE if Graham was still here.

2) Leonard could very easily take over for Maroney of Maroney was injured. Yes, i believe that. I am not convinced that Morris could do it.

3) Kevin Faulk was a 2nd round pick. He's been primarly a back up his entire career. Granted, he was drafted by Parcells, but still fits.

4) Mills is known as NOT being a good blocker coming out of college. He'd also never carried a football. So, the only "mold" he fits is one of a pass-catcher.

 

[DaBruinz]

I think that Morris was brought in for exactly what you are asking for someone else to do.
I think it is unrealistic to expect to have a good starter, plus Kevin Faulk, who is one of the best 3rd down backs, and then have someone better than Sammy Morris who is a proven backup and part-time starter.

Prior to last year, when we drafted the RB of the future, we never had anyone close to as good as Morris behind the starter and Faulk.

I'm not sure who you expect to bring in to a role where you cannot be a starter or the 3rd down back and may not see more than a couple of carries a game, who is better than Morris.
I suppose you could do that through the draft, but to spend a first on a guy who unless there is an injury wont be on the field in the next 5 years seems unlikley to me,.

Well, maybe Morris is better than I expect. I pictured him as a replacement for Patrick Pass.

Honestly, I am not a big fan of Heath Evans. And I think that the Pats made a mistake bringing him back. But if that is the only mistake they make, I can live with it.

Oh, btw, considering Faulk's injury history, I'd put money on the idea that Leonard would be on the field a LOT more than "not seeing the field in the next 5 years."

 

[lutontown_fc]

Just a quick note of thanks.

This is the type of thread that I love coming to Patsfans for!

 

[sebman2112]

If NE were to draft a RB in the first round I would take Michael Bush, over Brian Leonard. Leonard would be a reach in the first round. Bush was probably the best back in the entire nation (no joke) until his injury. Bush is bigger, a tougher runner, and can catch the ball very good for his size.

If NE were to draft Micheal Bush in the first round I'll go on record saying it would be the best backfield in the entire NFL.

Maroney, Bush, Morris, Faulk, Evens? with Mills as your TE/H-back?
This is not out of the question either since NE has carried:
Dillon, Maroney, Evans, Faulk, and a backup (mostly Pass).

Emagine having Bush, and Maroney in the backfield at the same time?

NE could actually cut some of their backups if they drafted Bush since he can do so much.

 

[mcsully]

Let me know whenn you actually start following the Patriots and not this fantasy version you seem to have.

1) Ben Watson. He debunks your theory of not using a high draft pick on a long term player back-up player. Watson would still be the #2 TE if Graham was still here.

2) Leonard could very easily take over for Maroney of Maroney was injured. Yes, i believe that. I am not convinced that Morris could do it.

3) Kevin Faulk was a 2nd round pick. He's been primarly a back up his entire career. Granted, he was drafted by Parcells, but still fits.

4) Mills is known as NOT being a good blocker coming out of college. He'd also never carried a football. So, the only "mold" he fits is one of a pass-catcher.

Ahh.. Must take a personal shot when you don't like someone taking a different view point, figures..
Maybe if I babbled, i'd have 5k posts

This is not madden where you use a #1 pick for a FB.. (fyi, he was on ESPN saying two weeks ago saying he wants to play rb).

I'll repeat what I've said 3 times already.. The Patriots have depth at the position you want Leonard for. As someone pointed out, if we need a backup RB, Bush would be a better pick and could move down for him AND obtain additional picks..

AGAIN another bad ANALOGY....Faulk was a second round pick when he didn't have a legit RB and were looking for a starter.... FYI he was picked by Carrol and Grier... Not PARCELLS..
And for a season or so, they wanted him to be the starter..

You say Mills wasn't this or that.. Hey Matt Jones (jacksonville WR) never played WR but does a pretty good job for them.. Sometimes you base talent on what you project them to be.. Mills fits the MOld of being a FB/TE..

And LEONARD can not easily take over for Maroney.. Maroney never lost his starting job like Leonard did... Have you seen Leonard play.. He isn't going to be a rb... Why must you think he will? Teams are projecting him FB..

Like I said, the depth is already there at the position. The pats need an injection of youth and talent on the defensive side..

 

[rookBoston]

Sign me up, mg! I am totally on board, point for point

 

[mgteich]

1) Gardner is indeed a top STer, and would likely get reps only on ST's if Hartwell were also signed.

A TE who leads the nation in catches and has never carried the ball is not in danger of beating out a running back. He could beat out a TE, but he won't. The team could keep a spot just for him. The bottom three spots could be at any position.

I think we will sign maybe one that has a chance of playing on defense and if we sign any more they will be special teamers.



I think resigning Mickens is a good idea. He is a good nickelback.



How on earth do you know that? We've never seen Mills play! In college he only led the nation in catches.

 

[mcsully]

Except for a couple of things.
1) Leonard has actually been a RB and a FB. Mills has been neither.
2) Mills is considered an H-Back. A TE/FB combo in the mold of Chris Cooley.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=52809

More importantly though Leonard is the type of versatile weapon the Patriots love to utilize and they could easily move him around to create mismatches, even potentially employing him in an H-Back role

We already have this player, on our team. HOw many "h-backs" do we need?

 

[DaBruinz]

This is not madden where you use a #1 pick for a FB.. (fyi, he was on ESPN saying two weeks ago saying he wants to play rb).

I don't play Madden. Also, you missed the other part of that interview where he said he'd do whatever it took.

I'll repeat what I've said 3 times already.. The Patriots have depth at the position you want Leonard for. As someone pointed out, if we need a backup RB, Bush would be a better pick and could move down for him AND obtain additional picks..

The Patriots DON'T have depth there. But far be it from you to acknowledge that Faulk has been injured every year for the past how many years. And he's missed critical situations because of it. Including this past AFCCG where he missed almost the entire 2nd half.

AGAIN another bad ANALOGY....Faulk was a second round pick when he didn't have a legit RB and were looking for a starter.... FYI he was picked by Carrol and Grier... Not PARCELLS..
And for a season or so, they wanted him to be the starter..

I stand corrected. Yes, they wanted him for a starter and he turned into a long term back-up. And he was a second round pick.

You say Mills wasn't this or that.. Hey Matt Jones (jacksonville WR) never played WR but does a pretty good job for them.. Sometimes you base talent on what you project them to be.. Mills fits the MOld of being a FB/TE..

I said Mills had never carried the ball. He also wasn't much of a blocker. He's a project, at best, for the H-back position.

And LEONARD can not easily take over for Maroney.. Maroney never lost his starting job like Leonard did... Have you seen Leonard play.. He isn't going to be a rb... Why must you think he will? Teams are projecting him FB..

Nice of you to actually READ what was said. I did NOT say that Maroney lost the starting job. I said that Leonard could start easily if Maroney as INJURED. Leonard didn't LOSE the starting job. Rutgers had Ray Rice commit to them and Rice was a much better starter. However that was AFTER Leonard became the starting FB, yet still led the team in rushing. You and I have no CLUE where teams are projecting him so stop acting like you do know. Its my opinion that teams are projecting him as a FB/RB hybrid.

Like I said, the depth is already there at the position. The pats need an injection of youth and talent on the defensive side..

The depth that isn't really there you mean. Or didn't you bother to watch the AFCCG where the Pats had Faulk, Maroney and Dillon on the sidelines and were relying on Heath Evans to run the ball and try to make catches out of the backfield.

Faulk has been injured regularly. Evans is a "God help us" emergency back. Morris may be able to carry the load if Maroney is injured, but who knows.

 

[DaBruinz]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=52809

More importantly though Leonard is the type of versatile weapon the Patriots love to utilize and they could easily move him around to create mismatches, even potentially employing him in an H-Back role

We already have this player, on our team. HOw many "h-backs" do we need?

Who is this H-back you are talking about? Mills? Give me a break. Guy never made it onto the field and got red-shirted.

Not to mention the fact he's never blocked out of the backfield and didn't do much blocking as a TE in the offense he was in.

So, Leonard could fill in 3 positions. RB, FB, and H-back. Shows good versaility. Something the Pats like. Thanks for pointing that out. Even more reason to take him..

OH, btw, its not really bright to quote a quote that supports my position. That quote was from NFLDraftCountdown.com where the person had the Patriots taking Leonard in the 1st round with 28th pick.

 

[mcsully]

I don't play Madden. Also, you missed the other part of that interview where he said he'd do whatever it took.

I didn't miss that part where he said he prefer to play Tailback. This debate was on NFL network about two weeks ago (quick one). And it was stated he wanted to be a running back..

Including this past AFCCG where he missed almost the entire 2nd half.

Yes Faulk was injuried last year and at the same time we could have used him. BUT Injuries are part of the game. Hey, I want backups at every position that could be starters.> But with the salary cap you can't do that.

Ask yourself this.. Wouldn't you rather have had depth at the Saftey position and Corner position during the 2nd half of the AFC CG? To me, that is why we lost.. The talent was below standard.. This is what we need to address.

Nice of you to actually READ what was said. I did NOT say that Maroney lost the starting job. I said that Leonard could start easily if Maroney as INJURED. Leonard didn't LOSE the starting job. Rutgers had Ray Rice commit to them and Rice was a much better starter. However that was AFTER Leonard became the starting FB, yet still led the team in rushing. You and I have no CLUE where teams are projecting him so stop acting like you do know. Its my opinion that teams are projecting him as a FB/RB hybrid.

You took my statement incorrectly.. I know Leornad won't take the job away if he came to the team. But the term I should have used was "FILLED IN EASILY". Maroney has a high celing to become a special tailback, leonard doesn't. SO if Maroney comes down, in my opinion, he won't fill in that need.

FYI, I relay what I read and hear.. That is why I project him at that position. A few years ago, I projected Matt Jones to WR because I read it..hehehe.

The depth that isn't really there you mean. Or didn't you bother to watch the AFCCG where the Pats had Faulk, Maroney and Dillon on the sidelines and were relying on Heath Evans to run the ball and try to make catches out of the backfield.

This game was lost for other reasons. NOt because we had those players in.. Could it have helped.. Yea.. But to what point..

The old saying works for me. "Offenses sell tickets.. Defense wins Championships"..

Go defense