My Blueprint for the Defense

[mayoclinic]

I agree that ideally, we would use Houston as a huge beastly LDE. And then kick him inside on passing downs.

But we're paying Rob Ninkovich 5 mil a year. Do you move him into a sub rusher role? I'd rather have a guy like Joseph who has a clear path to a role that maximizes his skillset.

I do think that Chandler Jones and Lamarr Houston with two penetrating guys playing inside would be a lot of fun.

I've always felt that you need as many good DLs as you can get. Rotate them, keep them fresh. Ninkovich played 95.6% of the defensive snaps last year, and I don't think we can count on that, but I also think that he'll get his fair share of snaps.

I personally think that BB has wanted to play more of a 4-3 under base since 2011, but hasn't been able to find the right LDE fit. As I mentioned above in post #565, he tried Shaun Ellis in 2011. That didn't work out. He looked at Red Bryant in 2012, and when that didn't go over he signed Jonathan Fanene. We know how that one turned out. It was only then that Rob Ninkovich moved from LB to full time DE. I think that was a fallback option out of necessity for BB. Ninkovich has played extremely well at DE - as he did at LB - but that hasn't stopped BB from looking at other guys who could potentially play that LDE role, such as Armond Armstead last year. Armstead could still work out, but as of right now, I'm guessing BB is still looking for a player with the kind of skill set which Ellis used to have. Lamarr Houston and Mike Neal are the 2 FAs I see who could fit that role, and depending on how the market goes, I think either could be an option. I personally am not worried about Ninkovich will fit in. The defense will be "multiple", and he can play multiple roles.

 

[mayoclinic]

BTW, Michael Bennett reportedly played 57% of the defensive snaps for Seattle last year, on a 1 year / $5M deal. I'd say he was well worth it.

Bennett?s playing time will be a factor in his negotiations | ProFootballTalk

I'm guessing you could probably have each of Chandler Jones, Ninkovich and Houston play around 70%+ of the defensive snap count (with Houston and Jones also getting some snaps inside). I'd rather do that and have them fresh and effective than wear guys out or not have any depth in case of injuries.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

In that scenario, I'd look at Chicago CB Peanut Tillman, Minnesota CB Chris Cook, or ideally both. Cook is 6'2" 212# which elite athleticism, but has never been able to consistently play to his ability. I think he'd benefit from a guy like Tillman, who is a consummate professional on and off the field. That would give the Pats 2 big CBs to go with Dennard, Ryan and Arrington.

Cook has the size and the athleticism, but that's about it. He's a moron both on and off the field. He's not a playmaker--he has hands like a snake. Second most games started without an interception by a corner in NFL history. He couldn't consistently stay on the field whether due to health or poor play concerns, and the Vikings are making little to no effort to re-sign him despite having brutal corners and him presumably coming cheap. I'd rather find a big corner in the draft for cheaper than bring in this disappointment. He is 6-2/212 though.

 

[mayoclinic]

Cook has the size and the athleticism, but that's about it. He's a moron both on and off the field. He's not a playmaker--he has hands like a snake. Second most games started without an interception by a corner in NFL history. He couldn't consistently stay on the field whether due to health or poor play concerns, and the Vikings are making little to no effort to re-sign him despite having brutal corners and him presumably coming cheap. I'd rather find a big corner in the draft for cheaper than bring in this disappointment. He is 6-2/212 though.

That's partly why I would bring in Cook along with someone like Tillman, who could provide leadership and experience. Cook has the raw skill set, but he's never been consistent. And I would only do it if he came cheap.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

BTW, Michael Bennett reportedly played 57% of the defensive snaps for Seattle last year, on a 1 year / $5M deal. I'd say he was well worth it.

Bennett?s playing time will be a factor in his negotiations | ProFootballTalk

I'm guessing you could probably have each of Chandler Jones, Ninkovich and Houston play around 70%+ of the defensive snap count (with Houston and Jones also getting some snaps inside). I'd rather do that and have them fresh and effective than wear guys out or not have any depth in case of injuries.

I guess. Bennett is a much better player than Ninkovich in my estimation but I see your point.

Its funny. IIRC we were talking about giving Michael Bennett 5 years, $30 million this time last year. Seattle should have read this forum and saved some money

 

[mayoclinic]

I guess. Bennett is a much better player than Ninkovich in my estimation but I see your point.

Its funny. IIRC we were talking about giving Michael Bennett 5 years, $30 million this time last year. Seattle should have read this forum and saved some money

I wanted to sign Bennett badly last year. It would have been a great deal for the Pats, in retrospect. He, Jones and Ninkovich would have been a great DE core group.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

That's partly why I would bring in Cook along with someone like Tillman, who could provide leadership and experience. Cook has the raw skill set, but he's never been consistent. And I would only do it if he came cheap.

I'd say he HAD the raw skill set coming out of college. Now he's been injured a number of times, shown he struggles in man coverage, and that he has absolutely no idea how to play the ball when it's in the air. Jerry Gray is an excellent DB coach and they're showing almost no interest in re-signing him on the cheap. Gray would be able to coach him up better than Tillman.

I'd pass, and would only bring him in if it meant zero guaranteed money. He is not a good football player. I'd be for signing Peanut though, he's been the most underrated corner in the league during his career.

 

[mayoclinic]

First day of free agency almost over. Michael Bennett back to Seattle, Lamarr Houston to Chicago, Linval Joseph to Minnesota (and Everett Griffen re-signed by the Vikings), Michael Johnson and Alterraun Verner to Tampa Bay, Vontae Davis re-signed by the Colts, TJ Ward to Denver, and Jarius Byrd to the Saints. A lot of bloated deals, as usual. I didn't really expect the Pats to be major players day 1 of free agency, though the magnitude of the Houston/Joseph/Ward signings was well within the range of the team, if they had chosen to get involved (< $6M/year AAV for Ward, just over $6M/year AAV for Joseph, and $7M/year AAV for Houston). The Pats could probably have afforded 2 of those guys if they had released Vince Wilfork. The one I most regret is Houston, who I think would have been a great fit.

Looking at the remaining options in FA (and disregarding the possibility of a Darrell Revis mega-signing for now, which I think is a tremendously remote possibility), there's lots of potential options still available, including a number of big names (Demarcus Ware, LaMarr Woodley, Jared Allen, Julius Peppers). My preferences:

1. Re-sign Aqib Talib. Hopefully the price range will be between Alterraun Verner (4 years / $26.5M, $14M guaranteed) and Brent Grimes (4 years / $32M, $16M guaranteed). The fact that Talib is still on the market suggests that teams are reluctant to give him more money given his injury and off-field history. I'm hoping he will realize that the grass isn't greener and re-up with the Pats.

2. Sign DL Mike Neal (Green Bay). Neal was my second preference to Lamarr Houston, with similar versatility, and a ton of upside. I'm hoping he would be in the $5M/year range.

3. Sign DB Brandon Browner (Seattle). Depth at big CB and/or a SS option opposite Devin McCourty.

4. Sign LB Wesley Woodyard (Denver). The Pats have already had Woodyard in for a visit. He would be excellent depth at LB and would play a major role in sub packages and as a hybrid LB/S.

Those 4 signings would significantly improve the defense, without breaking the bank, and put the team in good position going into the draft. They aren't sexy big money contracts, but they would be good fits for the team and complement the players we already have.

 

[mayoclinic]

First day of free agency almost over. Michael Bennett back to Seattle, Lamarr Houston to Chicago, Linval Joseph to Minnesota (and Everett Griffen re-signed by the Vikings), Michael Johnson and Alterraun Verner to Tampa Bay, Vontae Davis re-signed by the Colts, TJ Ward to Denver, and Jarius Byrd to the Saints. A lot of bloated deals, as usual. I didn't really expect the Pats to be major players day 1 of free agency, though the magnitude of the Houston/Joseph/Ward signings was well within the range of the team, if they had chosen to get involved (< $6M/year AAV for Ward, just over $6M/year AAV for Joseph, and $7M/year AAV for Houston). The Pats could probably have afforded 2 of those guys if they had released Vince Wilfork. The one I most regret is Houston, who I think would have been a great fit.

Looking at the remaining options in FA (and disregarding the possibility of a Darrell Revis mega-signing for now, which I think is a tremendously remote possibility), there's lots of potential options still available, including a number of big names (Demarcus Ware, LaMarr Woodley, Jared Allen, Julius Peppers). My preferences:

1. Re-sign Aqib Talib. Hopefully the price range will be between Alterraun Verner (4 years / $26.5M, $14M guaranteed) and Brent Grimes (4 years / $32M, $16M guaranteed). The fact that Talib is still on the market suggests that teams are reluctant to give him more money given his injury and off-field history. I'm hoping he will realize that the grass isn't greener and re-up with the Pats.

2. Sign DL Mike Neal (Green Bay). Neal was my second preference to Lamarr Houston, with similar versatility, and a ton of upside. I'm hoping he would be in the $5M/year range.

3. Sign DB Brandon Browner (Seattle). Depth at big CB and/or a SS option opposite Devin McCourty.

4. Sign LB Wesley Woodyard (Denver). The Pats have already had Woodyard in for a visit. He would be excellent depth at LB and would play a major role in sub packages and as a hybrid LB/S.

Those 4 signings would significantly improve the defense, without breaking the bank, and put the team in good position going into the draft. They aren't sexy big money contracts, but they would be good fits for the team and complement the players we already have.

With Talib getting a ridiculous contract from the Broncos (6 years, $57M, $26M guaranteed), I wish even more that the Pats had gone after DL help. I've been a Talib proponent longer than just about anyone on this board, but that contract is just plain stupid.

 

[Off The Grid]

I've been a Talib proponent longer than just about anyone on this board...

Considering that you actually called for us to trade for'm before Coach Bill actually did so, I'd say that we can probably dispense with the Qualifier!!

 

[zimmy]

Cut Wilfork, Sopoaga, Wilson. Extend McCourty. Can't remember the figures but this would roughly give $28m in cap room.

Sign Revis - 10-12m a year
Melton or Starks 4m a year (perhaps a 1 year prove it deal for Melton.)
More DE help (Ware, Allen, Tuck etc) somewhere in 3-6m range depending on the player.

Think we can get a coverage backer in the draft but don't mind Woodyard as well.

I realise this wouldn't leave loads left for the offense where we would probably sign a WR, interior OL, TE and RB (Edelman/Nicks, Wendell/another C, Pettigrew, Blount)

 

[mayoclinic]

Considering that you actually called for us to trade for'm before Coach Bill actually did so, I'd say that we can probably dispense with the Qualifier!!

And it was a good trade. We got a year and a half of stellar CB play at a relatively affordable rate. Our secondary was in a shambles prior to that trade, and the trade catalyzed the development of the secondary into one of the better units in the NFL, along with the progression of Alfonzo Dennard and the all-important move of Devin McCourty to FS.

I naively thought Talib would stay. I thought it would take $7-8M/year AAV. $10M is ridiculous.

So long, Aqib. It was nice knowing you.

 

[Snake Eyes]

So long, Aqib. It was nice knowing you.

The problem is that BB will probaly use the #1 on some garbage DB who should have gone in the 5th, and he'll stock the lines with late round scrubs. Come playoffs Brady will be beaten like a rented mule and the opposing QB won't even have to wash his jersey.

In other words, business as usual.

 

[Patriot Missile]

The problem is that BB will probaly use the #1 on some garbage DB who should have gone in the 5th, and he'll stock the lines with late round scrubs. Come playoffs Brady will be beaten like a rented mule and the opposing QB won't even have to wash his jersey.

In other words, business as usual.

You paint a pretty bleak picture there. cb is the last thing I want to see drafted number 1.

And it was a good trade. We got a year and a half of stellar CB play at a relatively affordable rate. Our secondary was in a shambles prior to that trade, and the trade catalyzed the development of the secondary into one of the better units in the NFL, along with the progression of Alfonzo Dennard and the all-important move of Devin McCourty to FS.

I naively thought Talib would stay. I thought it would take $7-8M/year AAV. $10M is ridiculous.

So long, Aqib. It was nice knowing you.

Unfortunately he is gone but like you I'm not jumping off the Tobin anytime soon. Talib got paid like an elite CB "with no injury history." The deal was insane and I can't fault the Pats for not giving up that kind of cash nor can I fault Talib for taking Denver's money.

Denver got themselves an elite CB with a couple of chronic issues. He can shut down the big receivers but seems to struggle with the little nhat receivers. Can't say I hope it works out for them.

Btw, your right, it probably would of taken 7-8 last year. That's what the market dictated. Not so this year.

 

[Off The Grid]

I've been a Talib proponent longer than just about anyone on this board, but that contract is just plain stupid.

Considering that you actually called for us to trade for'm before Coach Bill actually did so, I'd say that we can probably dispense with the Qualifier!!

And it was a good trade.

We got a year and a half of stellar CB play at a relatively affordable rate.

Our secondary was in a shambles prior to that trade, and the trade catalyzed the development of the secondary into one of the better units in the NFL, along with the progression of Alfonzo Dennard and the all-important move of Devin McCourty to FS.

Uhhhh...OK.

You do realize that I was paying you a compliment...right??

No need to defend that Talib Trade: It was brilliant the moment it happened!!

 

[Big-T]

Sign Revis, Cromartie & Woodyard, go 3-4 w/ single safety:

Kelly-Wilfork-Armstead
Collins-Mayo-Woodyard-Jones
Cromartie-Dennard-McCourty-Revis​

Wilfork 2 gaps, everyone else 1 gap Revis is obviously good enough to lock down 1 receiver, Cromartie has shown he can do it when his hip is fine, that leaves the front 7 to get creative.

 

[mayoclinic]

You paint a pretty bleak picture there. cb is the last thing I want to see drafted number 1.

I agree. More than ever, I want the Pats to go after Aaron Donald. The ability to disrupt up front will make a huge difference on the back end.

 

[mayoclinic]

Greg Peshek is the guy who puts together the metric comparisons for CBs, TEs etc. He's currently doing DTs and tweeted about Aaron Donald:

https://twitter.com/NU_Gap/status/442821095435939840

And then there's this from Peshek, on Josh Norris' Twitter site:

Through early games, Hageman putting up similar pressure numbers to Aaron Donald. Probably will even out, but still good to see.

Very interesting.

 

[mayoclinic]

Uhhhh...OK.

You do realize that I was paying you a compliment...right??

No need to defend that Talib Trade: It was brilliant the moment it happened!!

Of course I knew you were. I wasn't defending it. Just expounding. It was a good move, and if the Pats had played things a bit differently, he could have been here for the long year. I wanted them to give Talib a long term extension last year while the market was soft.

Oh well. Time to move on. No tears from me.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Of course I knew you were. I wasn't defending it. Just expounding. It was a good move, and if the Pats had played things a bit differently, he could have been here for the long year. I wanted them to give Talib a long term extension last year while the market was soft.

Oh well. Time to move on. No tears from me.

And likewise it was a shrewd move by Aqib Talib to turn down the long term overtures the Patriots made towards him last year. He recognized it was a bad year to be a FA cornerback and bet on himself. Then played the best football of his career by a country mile in weeks 1-5.