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Jimmy Graham NE Patriot?

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We got Chung for Matt Cassel and Mike Vrabel, and traded #89 in 2010 to Carolina (Armanti Edwards of App. ST.) and stood pat for #33 Dowling in 2011. After review the total haul is even less impressive.

I didn't necessarily mean to insinuate that Belichick hasn't made any mistakes, and obviously there were some weak draft classes from '06 to '09, which may have cost us another SB.

I simply meant that his 1st round success rate is pretty high, and those first round picks (especially under the much cheaper rookie scale) are extremely important for the whole "team building" process.

As I said to Deus, I actually wouldn't be unhappy if Belichick chose to part with 2 first rounders for Graham, since I'm personally so disgusted (right or wrong) about the lack of receiving talent at the moment. It's possible that I'm just being impatient and have bad thoughts about 2013 in my mind still, so I'd have to imagine that they'll be addressed with another high pick TE and the possible addition of a middle tiered WR in free agency. I just don't think it'd happen, and I do understand why no one seems to do it since it's not really good business practice--although you may disagree.

This is the part that I find unbelievable. Not only did they insult him with the TE tag, but they left him exposed by not applying the Exclusive variety. Mickey Loomis has some balls. I'd be pissed if I were Graham.

Yeah, I think any of the following were taken into consideration from Loomis, although I agree with you. I'd have been pissed as well.

a) They were pretty confident that no one would part with 2 first rounders based on the lack of past interest around the NFL

b) They felt that they could match any offers given, should someone decide to want to try and make a run, seeing as how they'll eventually hope to get a deal done anyway

c) They were prepared to get the 2 first rounders in compensation even if they weren't able to match the offer
 
This is the part that I find unbelievable. Not only did they insult him with the TE tag, but they left him exposed by not applying the Exclusive variety. Mickey Loomis has some balls. I'd be pissed if I were Graham.

To borrow a line from, IIRC, Perfect Strangers, "It's not the ballsy look. It's the poverty look!"

The Saints obviously don't want to overpay, but they definitely didn't have the cap room to tag him as a WR even if they wanted to. I'm not even sure they had enough cap room to give him the exclusive tag at TE.
 
The only players I can remember getting traded on a franchise tag are both Patriots (Cassel and Tebucky Jones), and both of those were tag-and-trades (a 3, 5, and 7, IIRC, for Jones).

There was the whole Steve Hutchinson (transition tag) move by Minnesota to swipe him from Seattle, then Seattle pulled the same poison-pill tactic by snapping up Nate Burleson (Restricted FA) from Minnesota in retaliation. No draft pick compensation was awarded in either deal.
 
There was the whole Steve Hutchinson (transition tag) move by Minnesota to swipe him from Seattle, then Seattle pulled the same poison-pill tactic by snapping up Nate Burleson (Restricted FA) from Minnesota in retaliation. No draft pick compensation was awarded in either deal.

By definition, the transition tag carries only right of first refusal, which makes it vastly different than the franchise tag (and which is why it is rarely used).
 
Yes, I should've clarified and not chosen to lump it in with the other examples, but none of them were examples of teams parting with multiple first round picks under the franchise tag system, and that's what he chose to respond to me about.

Obviously, there have been first round picks given up in trade compensation, but they weren't under the franchise tag arrangement (although there may have been one example from years ago--but I can't remember). The point was that it just doesn't happen.

Joey Galloway - tagged, ended up getting traded for two firsts
Sean Gilbert
 
As I said to Deus, I actually wouldn't be unhappy if Belichick chose to part with 2 first rounders for Graham, since I'm personally so disgusted (right or wrong) about the lack of receiving talent at the moment. It's possible that I'm just being impatient and have bad thoughts about 2013 in my mind still, so I'd have to imagine that they'll be addressed with another high pick TE and the possible addition of a middle tiered WR in free agency. I just don't think it'd happen, and I do understand why no one seems to do it since it's not really good business practice--although you may disagree.

On the contrary, normally I would agree. But as Deus stated it's dependent on who's available and I, too, was frustrated by our lack of receiving ability beyond Edelman's somewhat unexpected production and losing Gronk. Amendola has thus far not lived up to the billing, Dobson did what you would expect a second round rookie would do (I think he was a solid pick, he ain't C. Jackson thank God). It's just time to make that splash like Randy in '07. Quit screwing around and surround Brady with the talent. Make a run at this guy then focus on the D.

Yeah, I think any of the following were taken into consideration from Loomis, although I agree with you. I'd have been pissed as well.

a) They were pretty confident that no one would part with 2 first rounders based on the lack of past interest around the NFL

b) They felt that they could match any offers given, should someone decide to want to try and make a run, seeing as how they'll eventually hope to get a deal done anyway

c) They were prepared to get the 2 first rounders in compensation even if they weren't able to match the offer

I'm thinking b)
 
By definition, the transition tag carries only right of first refusal, which makes it vastly different than the franchise tag (and which is why it is rarely used).

Mack and Worilds this year. First time since the Hutchinson debacle in '06 from what I know.
 
Mack and Worilds this year. First time since the Hutchinson debacle in '06 from what I know.

The transition tag is easier to use now that they've eliminated poison pill deals.
 
Isn't the deadline for signing a player to an offer sheet 7 days before the draft?

I thought there might be some kind of deadline. Either that or there's a lot of grey area and some happy lawyers and agents chomping at the bit.
 
The transition tag is easier to use now that they've eliminated poison pill deals.

Yes, I had forgotten that it was still an option. Tags and the owners were not happy about that. It looks like it can still be circumvented though.

Inside Slant: Reminder on 'poison pills' with NFL transition tags - ESPN

That paragraph does not prevent a team from crafting an advantageous but equal offer sheet that, for instance, front-loads a salary-cap hit in order to capitalize on another team's tight fit. In fact, that might be an advisable strategy for a team seeking to sign Worilds; at the moment the Steelers are one of two teams who are over the NFL's $133 million cap limit.

In that case, the cap hit would be the same for both teams and thus would be legal. Coming tomorrow: How a bill becomes a law.
 
Yes, I had forgotten that it was still an option. Tags and the owners were not happy about that. It looks like it can still be circumvented though.

Inside Slant: Reminder on 'poison pills' with NFL transition tags - ESPN

That's perfectly fair. The one thing the owners wanted to get rid of was the ability to create conditions where the original team had to "match" unfair terms (i.e., the new team has to pay $10M over five years to get him; the original team has to pay $20M over five years to keep him).

Kraft reportedly considered doing that with Welker in 2007, but decided against it to avoid future retaliation.
 
In the last few years alone, off the top of my head, not tagged players.

RGIII was traded for 3 first rounders as well as a second.

Julio Jones was traded for 2 first rounders, a second and two fourths.

Jay Cutler was traded for 2 first rounders, a third and Kyle Orton.

As CT mentioned, those deals don't have the true double-whammy of a big contract in addition to the draft pick compensation.

But those are also bad examples for several other reasons. First, it's worth noting those 3 teams went a combined 15-33 last season, definitely a model I want to follow.

The RGIII trade is still giving, as the 3-13 Redskins send the #2 overall pick to the Rams. In addition, the Rams acquired Michael Brockers, Janoris Jenkins, Alec Ogletree, and Zac Stacey, 4 starters, a few other kids with potential, and the #2 pick this year. They also won 4 more games than the Redskins last year despite playing in the toughest division in football.

The Jones deal worked out to be a bit more neutral because Cleveland wasted a chunk of it on Brandon Weeden (hey, it's Cleveland), but there is still Phil Taylor, Greg Little, Owen Maricic, and part of the trade that sent Trent Richardson to Indy for a 1st-rounder this year.

The Cutler deal arguably was the catalyst to Denver making the Super Bowl this season, as the Broncos received Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, and Robert Ayers. They also spent a 1st on Tim Tebow, who would eventually be traded for Danny Trevathan, a core defensive player.

Again, this is just on the draft pick side. None of these teams would face the second half of the equation, which is throwing in a large contract to chew up cap space.

And while sample sizes are small, what did the teams really get out of these deals?

Washington got their play-off game, and maybe this year would have gone better if Shanahan didn't let Griffin destroy himself out there. Meanwhile, the Rams went from a 2-win team to 7 wins the past two seasons in the toughest division in football.

Atlanta went 13-3 and scored 419 points with Julio Jones, but was that really because of the trade? The previous two seasons without Jones, they went 10-6 and scored 402 points, and 13-3 and scored 426 points. The main difference is they finally won a play-off game, though they blew a 20-point lead and had a miracle last-minute drive from Ryan. Cleveland is...well...what can you say about Cleveland?

The Bears have gone to the play-offs once with Cutler, but in his 5 seasons, they're 3 games over .500. The 5 seasons before Cutler, the Bears were 5 games over .500 with 2 Super Bowl trips. Denver went through a lot of changes but has emerged the past 3 seasons as one of the dominant teams in the league, a consistent play-off presence and Super Bowl threat.

So even without the big contract at the end, it's hard to say any of those deals really made the difference the teams were hoping for. If you discount the Browns from the equation (as they're not really an NFL team anyways), the team receiving the surplus of picks often translates them into cheap, talented players, who are not just contributors on the field, but also allow for more talent to be added around them.

If Denver instead followed that model and traded for high-priced receivers who are as talented as Thomas and Decker, they will need to compensate in other areas where they also drafted cheap players, and they can't afford Manning when he becomes a free agent.

That's why people hoard those picks. They aren't just cheap labour, they are also financial flexibility to make moves later. The Graham scenario denies you both of those things.
 
Yes, but there's obviously a reason why we don't see other NFL teams parting with 2 first round draft picks....ever.

It's beyond horrible business practice, especially with the recent change in the rookie wage scale. You don't build your team properly by not having a first round draft pick for the next 2 years.

On top of that, Belichick's first draft selections are excellent--so I'm not sure where the whole "odds" aspect came into play? We've built our team with superior talent in the first round on cheap rookie deals time and time again.

In the last few years alone, off the top of my head, not tagged players.

RGIII was traded for 3 first rounders as well as a second.

Julio Jones was traded for 2 first rounders, a second and two fourths.

Jay Cutler was traded for 2 first rounders, a third and Kyle Orton.

I'm not seeing the comparison, ACQB. I think you're confused about what the discussion is about.

None of these players were tagged under the franchise tag. Zero.

All you're doing is giving examples of draft day trades to move up.

How about some examples of teams who gave up 2 first round picks to steal away players who were tagged with the non-exclusive franchise tag? That is what we're talking about.

No confusion on my part at all. You said nobody trades 2 first round picks ever. You didn't restrict it to franchise player only trades and I noted that they weren't tagged players. I'm also aware of the added cost of the contract. I'm not arguing for the trade, I listed 3 trades that involved the trading of multiple firsts. That's all.
 
As CT mentioned, those deals don't have the true double-whammy of a big contract in addition to the draft pick compensation.

But those are also bad examples for several other reasons. First, it's worth noting those 3 teams went a combined 15-33 last season, definitely a model I want to follow.

The RGIII trade is still giving, as the 3-13 Redskins send the #2 overall pick to the Rams. In addition, the Rams acquired Michael Brockers, Janoris Jenkins, Alec Ogletree, and Zac Stacey, 4 starters, a few other kids with potential, and the #2 pick this year. They also won 4 more games than the Redskins last year despite playing in the toughest division in football.

The Jones deal worked out to be a bit more neutral because Cleveland wasted a chunk of it on Brandon Weeden (hey, it's Cleveland), but there is still Phil Taylor, Greg Little, Owen Maricic, and part of the trade that sent Trent Richardson to Indy for a 1st-rounder this year.

The Cutler deal arguably was the catalyst to Denver making the Super Bowl this season, as the Broncos received Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, and Robert Ayers. They also spent a 1st on Tim Tebow, who would eventually be traded for Danny Trevathan, a core defensive player.

Again, this is just on the draft pick side. None of these teams would face the second half of the equation, which is throwing in a large contract to chew up cap space.

And while sample sizes are small, what did the teams really get out of these deals?

Washington got their play-off game, and maybe this year would have gone better if Shanahan didn't let Griffin destroy himself out there. Meanwhile, the Rams went from a 2-win team to 7 wins the past two seasons in the toughest division in football.

Atlanta went 13-3 and scored 419 points with Julio Jones, but was that really because of the trade? The previous two seasons without Jones, they went 10-6 and scored 402 points, and 13-3 and scored 426 points. The main difference is they finally won a play-off game, though they blew a 20-point lead and had a miracle last-minute drive from Ryan. Cleveland is...well...what can you say about Cleveland?

The Bears have gone to the play-offs once with Cutler, but in his 5 seasons, they're 3 games over .500. The 5 seasons before Cutler, the Bears were 5 games over .500 with 2 Super Bowl trips. Denver went through a lot of changes but has emerged the past 3 seasons as one of the dominant teams in the league, a consistent play-off presence and Super Bowl threat.

So even without the big contract at the end, it's hard to say any of those deals really made the difference the teams were hoping for. If you discount the Browns from the equation (as they're not really an NFL team anyways), the team receiving the surplus of picks often translates them into cheap, talented players, who are not just contributors on the field, but also allow for more talent to be added around them.

If Denver instead followed that model and traded for high-priced receivers who are as talented as Thomas and Decker, they will need to compensate in other areas where they also drafted cheap players, and they can't afford Manning when he becomes a free agent.

That's why people hoard those picks. They aren't just cheap labour, they are also financial flexibility to make moves later. The Graham scenario denies you both of those things.

I listed trades that were made for multiple firsts, not saying they were a good trades or that anyone should give two firsts for Graham.
 
Highly doubt it will happen. But if it ever did I would be in heaven.

Gronkowski and Graham would be the biggest 1-2 combo the NFL has ever seen. It would be a matchup nightmare which all the wr's and rbs would benefit from in a big way.
 
The Cutler deal arguably was the catalyst to Denver making the Super Bowl this season, as the Broncos received Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, and Robert Ayers. They also spent a 1st on Tim Tebow, who would eventually be traded for Danny Trevathan, a core defensive player.

The Bears have gone to the play-offs once with Cutler, but in his 5 seasons, they're 3 games over .500. The 5 seasons before Cutler, the Bears were 5 games over .500 with 2 Super Bowl trips. Denver went through a lot of changes but has emerged the past 3 seasons as one of the dominant teams in the league, a consistent play-off presence and Super Bowl threat.

Um, the catalyst? You seem to have conveniently left out the whole signing Manning thing. Thomas and Decker amassed 104-1552-15 in the 2 seasons before he arrived. Not terrible, but a world apart from what's happened in the 2 years Manning's been at the helm.

Manning has been the catalyst and it's not even debatable. Chicago only made it to 1 SB, and lost to guess who.

So even without the big contract at the end, it's hard to say any of those deals really made the difference the teams were hoping for. If you discount the Browns from the equation (as they're not really an NFL team anyways), the team receiving the surplus of picks often translates them into cheap, talented players, who are not just contributors on the field, but also allow for more talent to be added around them.

If Denver instead followed that model and traded for high-priced receivers who are as talented as Thomas and Decker, they will need to compensate in other areas where they also drafted cheap players, and they can't afford Manning when he becomes a free agent.

They traded Cutler away because they didn't think he was worth the big contract and gave a huge one to Peyton. They also went high priced receiver on some guy named Welker. Also, there comes a point in time when you have to pay these guys you draft. If you don't, there's always another team that will.

That's why people hoard those picks. They aren't just cheap labour, they are also financial flexibility to make moves later. The Graham scenario denies you both of those things.

If you look at some of the hoarded picks we've gone with over the years, it's really not all that impressive. Just sayin'.
 
Highly doubt it will happen. But if it ever did I would be in heaven.

Gronkowski and Graham would be the biggest 1-2 combo the NFL has ever seen. It would be a matchup nightmare which all the wr's and rbs would benefit from in a big way.

We'd all forget about AH pretty quickly, as well we should.
 
I listed trades that were made for multiple firsts, not saying they were a good trades or that anyone should give two firsts for Graham.

True, didn't mean to single you out, just adding onto it was all.

Um, the catalyst? You seem to have conveniently left out the whole signing Manning thing. Thomas and Decker amassed 104-1552-15 in the 2 seasons before he arrived. Not terrible, but a world apart from what's happened in the 2 years Manning's been at the helm.

Manning has been the catalyst and it's not even debatable. Chicago only made it to 1 SB, and lost to guess who.

Yeah, I meant 2 play-off trips. It happens whenever I try to write before my second cup of coffee

And yes, Manning is the biggest part of that team. But a huge reason why Denver even had the cap room to sign him comes from the Cutler trade.

Even including Manning's contract, the Denver offense was ranked 14th in amount spent the year that he signed. You can probably figure 20 to 25 teams would have wanted Manning, but only a handful could even field a competitive offer.

They traded Cutler away because they didn't think he was worth the big contract and gave a huge one to Peyton. They also went high priced receiver on some guy named Welker. Also, there comes a point in time when you have to pay these guys you draft. If you don't, there's always another team that will.

If you look at some of the hoarded picks we've gone with over the years, it's really not all that impressive. Just sayin'.

Welker's deal wasn't really that big of a deal. It was actually less than what we were offering in terms of guaranteed money. But again, they can't make that offer if Thomas is making $10-$14M like a top #1 would. Those draft picks provide a lot of financial flexibility.

As for hoarded picks, I am not quite sure what you mean. Last season, we traded the 29th (Cordarelle Patterson) for Jamie Collins, Logan Ryan, Josh Boyce, and the draft pick included in the LeGarrette Blount trade.

In 2011, we traded the 28th (Mark Ingram) for Shane Vereen, and the 1st round pick that would be most of the value in trading up for Chandler Jones.

In 2010, we always think of Dez Bryant vs. Devin McCourty, but our original pick really was Demaryius Thomas, but we traded down several times bypassing both receivers. So really, this is Demaryius Thomas vs. Devin McCourty, Aaron Hernandez (a killer football player in multiple ways), and Taylor Price. Prior to the murder charges, it was a really excellent deal.

Obviously trading up or down looks better or worse if you actually hit on the picks. But I'm really not sure what you mean by the hoarded picks not working out.
 
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