Can Amendola be relied upon to play the slot?

[RayClay]

My biggest concern with Amendola is that if the groin was as big an issue as many suggested and he opted not to have offseason surgery is this going to be something that becomes a problem in 2014 once he starts playing on it again. Also the injury is described as so severe by so many posters in here it causes me to be concerned that he could have long term mobility restrictions as a result of the injury. Ras-I Dowling suffered an injury in his rookie season to his hip, which is in that same region of the body, and he never regained full mobility especially laterally. Dowling underwent surgery, he was 5-6 years younger, and he was superior in talent and athletic ability and yet he still was not able to overcome the permanent damage suffered. For NFL players losing 1% of your talent or athletic ability can be the difference between being a good player and being out of the league.

If he was healthy, I think he could provide us with 80 receptions, 850 yards, and 3 touchdowns, which is solid production from the slot. I would like to see us move away from the using the slot as our primary weapon in 2014 anyway which is why right now I may be inclined to let Edelman walk, or release Amendola if they feel Edelman is now the superior player. I would not retain both of them, and not even just because of the economics of them, the reason I would not retain them both is they would both command reps and both command targets, of the 159 combined receptions Edelman and Amendola made in 2013-14 only 30 of them were made 11+ yards down the field. You can have one player playing 10 yards or less up field on a consistent basis, having two of them and then the tight ends working in that same range as well is not going to work.

When you rip it completely off the bone, there is no surgery necessary. That's what the surgeon would have done.

Considering how much controversy has been raised over this injury, it might be worth a few minutes to educate oneself on it.

Doctors often treat chronic groin pain by snipping the adductor longus – one of the muscles in the groin – from the pubic bone. Since Amendola's tendon ruptured, he essentially did the doctors' work for them, eliminating the need for surgery during the season. It also means he has a faster recovery time than if he had a groin operation.

Normal recovery time, even without surgery, is anywhere from two to six weeks. League sources said Amendola is healing faster than that, at a pace closer to three to four, which means he might play as soon as next Sunday at Atlanta.

The injury also speaks to the extreme pain Amendola can endure. He injured the groin in the first half of the Buffalo game and still played the second half. It's an injury that would have sidelined almost any player for the rest of the day. Amendola, however, returned to catch five passes, including three critical third-down receptions to sustain Patriot drives. He caught three balls on the team's game-winning drive.

Y! SPORTS

Adductor Longus Sprains and Tears (Athletic Pubalgia) - Hernia Repair in New York City

 

[Brady6]

When you rip it completely off the bone, there is no surgery necessary. That's what the surgeon would have done.

Considering how much controversy has been raised over this injury, it might be worth a few minutes to educate oneself on it.



Y! SPORTS

Adductor Longus Sprains and Tears (Athletic Pubalgia) - Hernia Repair in New York City

So what you are saying is that Amendola did essentially what the surgical procedure would have done? So the posters saying he could have went on injured reserve week one and opted for surgery were wrong? The full recovery from groin surgery, which is six weeks, would have been the same recovery time (actually, the surgery takes longer to recover from) for him to recover from his week one injury?

Based on what you have educated me with it appears Amendola should not have had any major issue with his groin after about week 8 or 9 of the regular season and that is maxing out the recovery window.

Did you see what I did there Ray?

 

[Brady6]

Assuming that was the injury, 4 - 12 weeks offers a complete recovery. The problem with injuries to Amendola is similar to Gronk - not one recurring problem, but rather a series of very different injuries. I would be more concerned of a different injury off the menu next year than I would a return to or effects of this injury.

Accepting that injury was the real deal, this year I believe was more playing at a reduced capability without adequate time to heal and hoping things did not get worse and require IR. Not ideal recovery by any means.

At this point 2013 is in the rearview. If Amendola is healthy, I believe he can produce about 85 receptions for 800-850 yards and 3-4 touchdowns, which is all we need from that position. It should not be a big a part of the offense as it is anyway, do not get me wrong Welker, Edelman, and Amendola are all very good players who have or can do a lot for this offense but if we want to succeed when it matters (playoffs) we need to have players that can battles against any matchup. These slot receivers are controllable by defense, they’ll gain their yardage but is 8-10 yards at a time and teams will just play that with a bend but don’t break approach and then in the red zone when the field is shorter and more congested they shut it down.

I have decided after much thought during this offseason that I would only keep one of them Amendola or Edelman, and since Amendola is already signed it would likely have to be him. In a perfect world, I would prefer Edelman but I would not pay him $5-$6 million and take the cap hit for Amendola on top of that, never, never, never.

 

[50-yard-line]

/facepalm

That is all.

 

[signbabybrady]

So what you are saying is that Amendola did essentially what the surgical procedure would have done? So the posters saying he could have went on injured reserve week one and opted for surgery were wrong? The full recovery from groin surgery, which is six weeks, would have been the same recovery time (actually, the surgery takes longer to recover from) for him to recover from his week one injury?

Based on what you have educated me with it appears Amendola should not have had any major issue with his groin after about week 8 or 9 of the regular season and that is maxing out the recovery window.

Did you see what I did there Ray?

I think your time lines make sense but I think realistically one has to account for the brutal sport he plays when considering healing time. My eyes tell me he was not right all season and I assume the injury never truly healed. Hopefully there wasnt further damage and hopefully it can fully heal in the offseason and be a non issue moving forward but I'm not a doctor and dont play one on TV nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn.

 

[RayClay]

So what you are saying is that Amendola did essentially what the surgical procedure would have done? So the posters saying he could have went on injured reserve week one and opted for surgery were wrong? The full recovery from groin surgery, which is six weeks, would have been the same recovery time (actually, the surgery takes longer to recover from) for him to recover from his week one injury?

Based on what you have educated me with it appears Amendola should not have had any major issue with his groin after about week 8 or 9 of the regular season and that is maxing out the recovery window.

Did you see what I did there Ray?

Playing football on a tendon that is no longer completely ripped off the bone is not the same as playing football without an injury. If he was a cashier at a store, he would be considered "healed" being that a little discomfort wouldn't interfere with doing that job, if that's what you mean.

Mankins played with a torn ACL, does that mean it had healed itself completely?

He played a lot because we had two rookies who both got injured and Gronk was injured.

I really don't know why it is so hard to understand that a slot receiver who's job it is to stop and cut can't play at 100% of his ability when a muscle and tendon in his groin area is still tender from not affording the maximum amount of rest and rehabilitation to it, in fact completely aggravating it every time you do your job.

I think some people just don't imagine what these professional football players put themselves through to perform in situations where the team has no available experienced players.

I'm starting to think it isn't that my explanations are unclear, rather that they aren't being really considered and understood.

 

[RayClay]

By the way, there are no football games for many months, so that players with injuries will have time, the only cure for some injuries, to rest, heal and rehab.

 

[Brady6]

Playing football on a tendon that is no longer completely ripped off the bone is not the same as playing football without an injury. If he was a cashier at a store, he would be considered "healed" being that a little discomfort wouldn't interfere with doing that job, if that's what you mean.

Mankins played with a torn ACL, does that mean it had healed itself completely?

He played a lot because we had two rookies who both got injured and Gronk was injured.

I really don't know why it is so hard to understand that a slot receiver who's job it is to stop and cut can't play at 100% of his ability when a muscle and tendon in his groin area is still tender from not affording the maximum amount of rest and rehabilitation to it, in fact completely aggravating it every time you do your job.

I think some people just don't imagine what these professional football players put themselves through to perform in situations where the team has no available experienced players.

I'm starting to think it isn't that my explanations are unclear, rather that they aren't being really considered and understood.

I get it Ray, and you know what he was injured and it affected him, how much only Amendola and the staff would know. As I said in another post that is all in the past, I have been arguing the Amendola and Edelman situation tirelessly all offseason and I have determined that the gap is so minimal that it really is not even worth arguing.

The Patriots have had three of the better slot receivers in the past 8 years on this team and every year, and they could all catch 120 footballs and gain 1200 yards but you know what it does not matter. In order for the offense to be effective, it is completely dependent on having a major player. This offense has been great three times during the Brady era. In 2007 when Moss, in 2011 when Gronkowski was healthy and in 2012 with Gronkowski (prior to his arm injury), the reason is that the slot wide receiver as helpful as it is works against the team in many ways. When we beat Denver so many people noted how Belichick played Manning and gave him the running game to prevent the pass, well it is my opinion that teams do that to us all the time, they give Brady the 6-10 yard pass to Welker, Edelman or Amendola. They know that he will take it, it will eat the clock and he will take the ball down field. When inside the 20 yard line without a Moss or Gronkowski if they can stop the running game most times it will end in just a field goal.

Look at the numbers on any given season around 25% of Brady’s completions will go to the slot receiver (Welker, Edelman, or Amendola) but of their 100+ receptions, generally less than 6% of occur in the touchdown. In 2011 Welker accounted for 28% of the passes thrown by Brady, yet of Brady’s touchdown passes only 23% were made by Welker. Compare that to Gronkowski who accounted for 20% of Brady’s passes in 2011, yet 43% of Brady’s touchdown passes were to Gronkowski.

I do not really care if it is Amendola or Edelman in the slot next year because I have concluded that if that position is the primary weapon in our offense we will not win a championship, so the player being able to catch 10 more passes than the other is not going to make a bit of difference.

 

[supafly]

I think that there's still a reasonable chance that Amendola's going to have another 85+ catch year in the next season or two, sure.

As we saw this year, Julian Edelman was able to stay healthy. Sometimes you just have some bad luck. It's the guys like Aqib Talib, Austin Collie, Miles Austin etc who have chronic issues of the same type of injury that concern me more than even a guy like Amendola/Edelman, who seem to have had some bad luck of sorts.

This all said, I wouldn't want to have to rely solely on Amendola for 16+ games in the slot without having another player behind him who could step in if/when needed. That's one of the nice things about having both of Edelman/Amendola here, if that continues.

 

[patfanken]

WOW, B6. Clearly you are in love with the sound of your own words. I have rarely read anyone say so much about so little, pontificate to infinity, yet listen so poorly. I am equally astonished that you have more posts in less than a year, than I have accumulated in over 13 years. DI is probably very proud.....and a little bit intimidated by the shear volume of your posts.

The fact is Amendola should be getting praise for playing through this nagging injury and giving us enough offensive snaps that we could get to the league's final 4. Instead the hypocrites and professional whiners/know-it-alls have made it their mission defame this kid. Ironically, in the EXACT same way that they did to JE last off season.

They also have no explanation for DA's production in the Buffalo game. The one game where he was at his healthiest. Want to see the kind of production we would getwith DA in the slot and healthy; go back to opening day and STOP worrying

BTW - Don't we have moderators at this site anymore. This topic should have been removed within a half hour of its posting. That's how ludicrous the OP was. In fact I am banning myself for a week in order to protect my self from having my head explode from reading this tripe, and to punish myself for even responding.

 

[Brady6]

WOW, B6. Clearly you are in love with the sound of your own words. I have rarely read anyone say so much about so little, pontificate to infinity, yet listen so poorly. I am equally astonished that you have more posts in less than a year, than I have accumulated in over 13 years.



The fact is Amendola should be getting praise for playing through this nagging injury and giving us enough offensive snaps that we could get to the league's final 4. Instead the hypocrites and professional whiners/know-it-alls have made their mission defame this kid. Ironically the EXACT same way that they did last off season to JE.



BTW- They also have no explanation for DA's production in the Buffalo game. The one game where he was at his healthiest. Want to see the kind of production we would get with DA in the slot and healthy; go back to opening day.



Don't we have moderators at this site anymore. This topic should have been removed within a half hour of its posting. That's how ludicrous it is. In fact I am banning myself for a week in order to protect my self from having my head explode from reading this tripe, and to punish myself for responding..

So I can do more in a year than you can do in 13 years is what your telling me. I am not that surprised in all honesty; if I only posted to insult other members, speak negatively about this site and the moderators who run it my post cost would probably be subpar like yours.

Sadly, it appears that your math is just as poor as your ability to accumulate posts, because your sign up date was July 2005 and that is 8 years and 7 months, not 13 years.

Your reading appears to be questionable as well because clearly you did not read my post because if you had you would have noticed that the basis was the slot wide receiver position as a whole and had very little if anything to do with Danny Amendola.

I do not praise people who make $5 million a year when they play through pain, I would probably sell my groin muscle for half of that. I also do not ignore 13 games played and form my expectation for a player on 1 game played because if I did I would expect Shane Vereen to have 1616 rushing yards, 112 receptions and 928 receiving yards next season, I would also expect Edelman to have 32 touchdowns, and Gregory to have 144 tackles.

 

[Kontradiction]

If I were a mod, I'd rename the thread title to "The official 2014 offseason Danny Amendola super thread", then begin merging the multiple Amendola threads in here to see how big this can get. Sort of like an Amendola version of the "Jets Suck" threads.

 

[Brady6]

I think your time lines make sense but I think realistically one has to account for the brutal sport he plays when considering healing time. My eyes tell me he was not right all season and I assume the injury never truly healed. Hopefully there wasnt further damage and hopefully it can fully heal in the offseason and be a non issue moving forward but I'm not a doctor and dont play one on TV nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn.

I do not doubt he was injured, I just do not really care that he was to be frank, I went and fought a war in a the slum of earth for less than $30 grand a year with a lot of other men and women doing the same thing. A football player playing through a groin injury for $5 million a season does not really wow me to tears.

I think we will be fine with Amendola, he will miss some time like he does every season, and he will never be Welker but I do not (or I hope) he will not need to be. This team needs to develop an offense that works further than 10 yards down the field and use the slot receiver as a complementary piece.

The thing that does intrigue me about the Amendola and Edelman situation is that on one side you have a player who was drafted by the team, converted himself from a college QB to a NFL wide receiver, develop over the years playing special teams, defensive back, and reserve wide receiver. He signed a 1 year $765,000 contract and came into camp as the fourth receiver while on crutches from offseason foot surgery. On the other side you have a long time starter for another team that was not even in the same conference as ours, he signed one of the most lucrative contracts in the 2013 offseason a contract that matched the career earnings of Wes Welker while with the Patriots. The first player exceed every expectation and the second one underwhelmed. I would expect that everyone would support the guy who came up in our org and built himself into something but instead I consistently see people diminish Edelman and what he did but make excuses and defend Amendola. That makes zero sense to me whatsoever, and the WTF behind that interest me way more than who will start in the slot for us next season.

 

[supafly]

This team needs to develop an offense that works further than 10 yards down the field and use the slot receiver as a complementary piece.

I think that may be a hope that we have as fans, but I find it hard to imagine our offense straying terribly far from the short field passing attack that takes advantage of pre-snap reads and mismatches before the ball is snapped.

In other words, I think our short field attack is still going to be the bread and butter of the offense. It allows for Brady to get rid of the ball quicker, makes up for weakness on the offensive line, manages time of possession in a glorified running game setting, and most of all--has proven to be very successful.

 

[50-yard-line]

I do not doubt he was injured, I just do not really care that he was to be frank, I went and fought a war in a the slum of earth for less than $30 grand a year with a lot of other men and women doing the same thing. A football player playing through a groin injury for $5 million a season does not really wow me to tears.

It's got nothing to do with him being a "hero" and everything to do with how well he could, or could be expected to, perform while nursing such an injury.

You expect rounded route and less cutting on someone with a grooooo...

Ah, ****, you dragged me back in.

Back to /facepalm.

 

[RayClay]

I think that may be a hope that we have as fans, but I find it hard to imagine our offense straying terribly far from the short field passing attack that takes advantage of pre-snap reads and mismatches before the ball is snapped.

In other words, I think our short field attack is still going to be the bread and butter of the offense. It allows for Brady to get rid of the ball quicker, makes up for weakness on the offensive line, manages time of possession in a glorified running game setting, and most of all--has proven to be very successful.

And the balanced passing attack will be instant if Dobson, Gronk and maybe Thomkins +(new receiver, new TE?) are healthy. No matter how much they tried, there's only so much of a deep game you can work with the 2 slot guys and collie.

 

[BradyFTW!]

My biggest concern with Amendola is that if the groin was as big an issue as many suggested and he opted not to have offseason surgery is this going to be something that becomes a problem in 2014 once he starts playing on it again. Also the injury is described as so severe by so many posters in here it causes me to be concerned that he could have long term mobility restrictions as a result of the injury. Ras-I Dowling suffered an injury in his rookie season to his hip, which is in that same region of the body, and he never regained full mobility especially laterally. Dowling underwent surgery, he was 5-6 years younger, and he was superior in talent and athletic ability and yet he still was not able to overcome the permanent damage suffered. For NFL players losing 1% of your talent or athletic ability can be the difference between being a good player and being out of the league.

If he was healthy, I think he could provide us with 80 receptions, 850 yards, and 3 touchdowns, which is solid production from the slot. I would like to see us move away from the using the slot as our primary weapon in 2014 anyway which is why right now I may be inclined to let Edelman walk, or release Amendola if they feel Edelman is now the superior player. I would not retain both of them, and not even just because of the economics of them, the reason I would not retain them both is they would both command reps and both command targets, of the 159 combined receptions Edelman and Amendola made in 2013-14 only 30 of them were made 11+ yards down the field. You can have one player playing 10 yards or less up field on a consistent basis, having two of them and then the tight ends working in that same range as well is not going to work.

Hip injuries and groin injuries are entirely different beasts, and it's pointless to compare them. In fact, groin surgeries typically consist of going in and fully detaching the groin (when it is partially detached) so that it can heal fully, which happens naturally because it's a muscle that is supplied with a good deal of blood (lack of blood supply is why injuries in the knee, hip, etc. don't heal well on their own). Since Amendola's was already fully detached, there was no need for surgery. It wasn't something that he opted not to have; it was something that he didn't need.

The choice that Amendola made last year was whether to play on the torn groin or to sit out until it was fully healed, which takes time. He played.

Going forward, I'm not particularly worried about Amendola's groin. Lots of players in all of the major sports injure their groins every year, and provided that it's allowed to fully heal, it doesn't typically become a chronic issue. If there is something to be worried about, it's that Amendola can't seem to reliably play more than a few games without sustaining some kind of injury. Some people's bodies are just like that.

 

[Brady6]

It's got nothing to do with him being a "hero" and everything to do with how well he could, or could be expected to, perform while nursing such an injury.

You expect rounded route and less cutting on someone with a grooooo...

Ah, ****, you dragged me back in.

Back to /facepalm.

I do not expect anything, as I said I could care less. Truth is I never liked the Amendola signing because of the investment of it. It had nothing to do with Amendola himself I just felt that the UFA class was extremely weak and the draft class lacked any receivers that were top 20 picks, this meant players like Amendola, Bowe, Wallace and others benefited and were substantially overpaid. This year you have an extremely deep draft especially at the wide receiver spot and the free agent market has better options.

If Amendola were in the 2014 UFA group, he would be fortunate to receive $3.5 million per season. The timing of Welker’s departure was not ideal, and it forced the issue, we should have planned better for that possibility, we should have offered the Rams more in 2012 for Amendola and had him in our control to extend. We did not and it is water under the bridge at this point, I just cannot get behind us paying two players that are nearly identical in playing style $5 million each. I would just roll forward with Amendola, then build out the rest of the receivers, and rebuild the tight ends behind Gronkowski.

Look at the catch numbers 11+ yards down field

- Edelman – 20
- Gronkowski – 16
- Thompkins – 12
- Amendola – 10
- Dobson – 9
- Boyce – 1

We need a player like Sanders, who can make the short catches but run intermediate and deep routes as well, I am not expecting us to become a vertical passing team. Essentially Edelman, Amendola, and Vereen would be tripping over each other with Gronkowski having to run through an obstacle course of his own receivers to get further than 10 yards up the field/

 

[BradyFTW!]

I do not doubt he was injured, I just do not really care that he was to be frank, I went and fought a war in a the slum of earth for less than $30 grand a year with a lot of other men and women doing the same thing. A football player playing through a groin injury for $5 million a season does not really wow me to tears.

No offense, but that has literally no relevance to this discussion. Nobody's said that you should be 'wowed to tears', You did your job. Amendola did his job. His ability to do his job at a high level was diminished by an injury, but he still did his job as best as he could. You literally can't ask someone to do more than they're capable of doing. Now the injury is healed, so he's again capable
of playing at a higher level.

The thing that does intrigue me about the Amendola and Edelman situation is that on one side you have a player who was drafted by the team, converted himself from a college QB to a NFL wide receiver, develop over the years playing special teams, defensive back, and reserve wide receiver. He signed a 1 year $765,000 contract and came into camp as the fourth receiver while on crutches from offseason foot surgery. On the other side you have a long time starter for another team that was not even in the same conference as ours, he signed one of the most lucrative contracts in the 2013 offseason a contract that matched the career earnings of Wes Welker while with the Patriots. The first player exceed every expectation and the second one underwhelmed. I would expect that everyone would support the guy who came up in our org and built himself into something but instead I consistently see people diminish Edelman and what he did but make excuses and defend Amendola. That makes zero sense to me whatsoever, and the WTF behind that interest me way more than who will start in the slot for us next season.

You see it this way because you have an agenda. It's not a "boo Edelman, yay Amendola!" thing, and your insistence on making it into that, over and over again, just further proves that you're either incredibly dense or really disingenuous on this topic. Does it help to know that a lot of the people who you keep butting heads with were against the Amendola signing when it happened and still don't like it to this day? I wasn't one of them, but even I had an "I guess we'll wait and see; seems like an overpay but if he manages to stay healthy it could be a good deal" perspective.

Everyone on this board likes Edelman and wants to see him re-sign with the Patriots and have a great deal of success... for the right price. You need to get that through your head, because me and about thirty other posters are sick of repeating it over and over again for your benefit. If this keeps up, I'm just going to have to put you on ignore, and while you probably don't care, I'm sure that I'm far from the only one who's at that point.

To reiterate: I like Edelman, and not just because he has the funniest reddit AMA of any NFL player. I also like Kyle Arrington, for a lot of the same reasons why I like Edelman. He's a tough, homegrown, versatile guy who worked his way up through the ranks, proved himself on ST, does whatever the team asks of him, and has the skills to be a strong contributor in a limited role. Arrington also had a season where he was pressed into duty to a ton of injuries and truly bad depth, and he responded with 7 interceptions, which I'd argue is at least as impressive as 1,000 yards. Both are impressive volume stats. But that was an anomaly, just like I suspect that Edelman's 2013 is.

The Patriots ended up paying Arrington too much money. There's no doubt about it, and going forward, due to his contract he's going to hurt the team more than he'll help. If I was GM for the Pats, and the league offered me an amnesty on Arrington's contract, I would take it in a heartbeat, because no matter how much I like the guy, that doesn't make the contract any less bad.

If Edelman's getting paid even as much as $5M per year by the Pats, I'm pretty sure that he'll end up in the same boat, so I really hope that that doesn't happen. There's a reason why nobody was willing to pay him even $1M last year, and one year where he gets 1,000 yards as the #1 option in an offense with no #2 option doesn't change his worth as dramatically as a few of you seem to think it should.

It has literally nothing to do with liking/disliking Edelman/Amendola. If it was magically possible to switch their places so that Edelman had Amendola's contract and Amendola was the UFA, I'd be all for it. But it's not.

 

[Brady6]

I think that may be a hope that we have as fans, but I find it hard to imagine our offense straying terribly far from the short field passing attack that takes advantage of pre-snap reads and mismatches before the ball is snapped.

In other words, I think our short field attack is still going to be the bread and butter of the offense. It allows for Brady to get rid of the ball quicker, makes up for weakness on the offensive line, manages time of possession in a glorified running game setting, and most of all--has proven to be very successful.

I hear you brother but it is not even as much about us making the plays further up field it is about at least having players running the routes that are threats. Teams do not respect Edelman or Amendola past 10 yards, so they just give play off them like teams play off Rajon Rondo and give him the jumper. They’ll give them the underneath passes and let it chew up the clock and then hold us to a field goal because in the red zone things get congested and the slot receivers are not good options.

At least if we had players who took the defense 15 yards up field when we need a third down we could toss it Edelman or Amendola (who ever the slot receiver is) and they would have some room to work with after the catch instead of there being defenders waiting for them.