How do you feel about the Patriots salary cap management in recent years?

[mgteich]

I will try to explain.

I don't understand the point regarding the packers.

With regard to moving money into the future, that is simply part of the game. Of course, this needn't be done. If we want to pay a player $4M, $5M, $6M, $7M and $8M or $30M with $9M guaranteed, there is no reason that we have to move any money into the future. We could simply guarantee the first two years and have no bonus.

Every team chooses to have bonuses. All bonuses create dead money in the sense you mean.
Most teams use a mix of front end bonuses, guarantees, and options (like Amendola's). A lot of 5 year contracts are really a combination of a shorter contract which the team can get out of and a series of options.

But there is no reasonable way to prevent "dead money" like Wilfork's $3.6M.

As a side note, it is the team that is consistently asking 2-3 players to accept all but $1M of their salary as a bonus. This moves current money into the future, and creates what you call dead money.

We call this money sunk cost. We only use "dead money" to refer to monies associated with players no longer playing for the patriots.

IN SUMMARY
The patriots could refuse to take advantage of the ability to spread monies paid to players currently into the future for cap accounting reasons. I think that this would be most unwise.

I hear what you are saying but I am looking at the players that many suggest we cut and even if we do, so this dead money remains.

Wilfork-$3,600,000
Connolly-$1,083,334
Gregory-$833,334
Sopoaga-$1,000,000
Kelly-$500,000
A. Wilson-$666,667
Total-$7,683,335

On some levels as I have said before I am not a cap expert but I am trying to understand it better, so these types of moves or as some label “sunk costs” are natures of the business. I am looking at things economically and I guess I am curious if there is a way to avoid them, I look at the Packers who seem to be under $5M in each of the last 2 years and it makes me question if we’re taking to many risks for the hope of a reward than we should.

 

[fester]

I never said differently. You are choosing to focus on Hernandez only but I see these hits on over the cap:

Brandon Lloyd-$3,500,000
Jonathan Fanene-$2,566,667
Chad Johnson-$1,583,334
Leon Washington-$1,200,000
Ras-I Dowling-$940,759
Daniel Fells-$333,333
Jabar Gaffney-$125,000
Spencer Larsen-$125,000
Lavelle Hawkins-$100,000
Total-$10,474,093

Those were all just bad decisions.

That aside I am not a cap expert, which is why I asked the question what you think of our management recently. I feel it has not been as tight as it has been in the past, if you disagree that is fine. I do not really want to get into a back and forth with excuses and “it is not their fault” conversation, because I understand all the circumstances and I still think it has been poor compared to the cap management during the 2000s. Tom Brady has bailed us out a lot, and people confuse that for excellent cap management but if he didn’t take the team first deals we would not be viewed in the same light.

You're pissed at a 100,000 dead money cap hit or the cutting of a second rounder with a typical contract for his draft slot? The first is a normal cost of business of signing veterans for camp competition and not seeing them win the slot over an UDFA or a low round pick. The second might be an argument for a team's inability to draft perfectly, but also an argument that the team recognizes the sunk cost fallacy and acts going forward with minimal concern of where a player was drafted if they can't perform.

The four major contracts in question are:
LLoyd, Fanene, Chad Johnson and Leon Washington. One looks to be a case of fraudulent representations, one was a misfit (Lloyd) with good first year performance, and two were gambles that failed.

 

[Brady6]

You're pissed at a 100,000 dead money cap hit or the cutting of a second rounder with a typical contract for his draft slot? The first is a normal cost of business of signing veterans for camp competition and not seeing them win the slot over an UDFA or a low round pick. The second might be an argument for a team's inability to draft perfectly, but also an argument that the team recognizes the sunk cost fallacy and acts going forward with minimal concern of where a player was drafted if they can't perform.

The four major contracts in question are:
LLoyd, Fanene, Chad Johnson and Leon Washington. One looks to be a case of fraudulent representations, one was a misfit (Lloyd) with good first year performance, and two were gambles that failed.

I am not pissed off about anything. I want to know what people think of our cap management over the past 2-3 years.

 

[ivanvamp]

I am not pissed off about anything. I want to know what people think of our cap management over the past 2-3 years.

It's been outstanding. Every team makes mistakes, but there's a reason why the Patriots are very, very good every single year. Well, lots of reasons actually, but good roster and cap management is right near the top.

 

[Brady6]

If Hernandez hadn't committed a couple of murders we would have less than ZERO dead money at this point. I suppose we can blame the FO for not foreseeing this. Personally I think that this is absurd.

Is it absurd? Because everything I have read about Hernandez highlights a player that has been out clubbing with guns in his waistband, in crowds with dudes hiding guns under cars outside strip clubs and much more.

Do you think that Hernandez signed his contract in Aug 2012 and met the like of Carlos Ortiz, Alexander Bradley, Ernest Wallace, and others since then? Now I am not saying that the murder should have been seen coming but the person is being eyed as the shooter in a drive by double homicide that took place outside one of the most popular nightclubs in Boston and on a main road that occurred 43 days before we signed him to a 40 million dollar contract. Something was missed and the decision was a poor one, this is not someone that was acting in disguise he was pretty damn open about his thug life behavior.

 

[mgteich]

The error on the part of the patriots is cutting him when we did. It would have helped the cap if he were cut a month or two later. Cutting a player who has not even been charged was unnecessary. Of course, he could have been barred from team activities until the issues was settled.

Is it absurd? Because everything I have read about Hernandez highlights a player that has been out clubbing with guns in his waistband, in crowds with dudes hiding guns under cars outside strip clubs and much more.

Do you think that Hernandez signed his contract in Aug 2012 and met the like of Carlos Ortiz, Alexander Bradley, Ernest Wallace, and others since then? Now I am not saying that the murder should have been seen coming but the person is being eyed as the shooter in a drive by double homicide that took place outside one of the most popular nightclubs in Boston and on a main road that occurred 43 days before we signed him to a 40 million dollar contract. Something was missed and the decision was a poor one, this is not someone that was acting in disguise he was pretty damn open about his thug life behavior.

 

[Brady6]

The error on the part of the patriots is cutting him when we did. It would have helped the cap if he were cut a month or two later. Cutting a player who has not even been charged was unnecessary. Of course, he could have been barred from team activities until the issues was settled.

I have no issue with them cutting Hernandez when they did and honestly I don't think Hernandez is the issue, I anticipate we will get relief for him.

My issue is with players like Adrian Wilson who hit our 2013 cap for $1.3 million and will hit our 2014 cap in some way while contributing absolutely nothing. I don't like the gambles on the old players anymore that used to be something that worked out for us but the last 3-4 seasons it has done nothing but hurt our cap.

 

[50-yard-line]

I have no issue with them cutting Hernandez when they did and honestly I don't think Hernandez is the issue, I anticipate we will get relief for him.

My issue is with players like Adrian Wilson who hit our 2013 cap for $1.3 million and will hit our 2014 cap in some way while contributing absolutely nothing. I don't like the gambles on the old players anymore that used to be something that worked out for us but the last 3-4 seasons it has done nothing but hurt our cap.

Good thread - informative and I think you bring up some good points here. The thing is, you can't hit on a Rodney Harrison if you don't take chances on an Adrian Wilson.

They took a similar chance on Tommy Kelly last year, and he was a big reason they won some of those early games. His play was outstanding before he went down.

As for Adrian Wilson, he was clearly awful in camp last year, but I wonder how much of that was the injury. If much of it was...well, I've still got this vision of seeing him lighting up the middle of the field for New England in certain sub-packages. He says he wants to play again - anyone know when they have to cut him to save maximum dollars?

 

[MassPats38]

Is it absurd? Because everything I have read about Hernandez highlights a player that has been out clubbing with guns in his waistband, in crowds with dudes hiding guns under cars outside strip clubs and much more.

Do you think that Hernandez signed his contract in Aug 2012 and met the like of Carlos Ortiz, Alexander Bradley, Ernest Wallace, and others since then? Now I am not saying that the murder should have been seen coming but the person is being eyed as the shooter in a drive by double homicide that took place outside one of the most popular nightclubs in Boston and on a main road that occurred 43 days before we signed him to a 40 million dollar contract. Something was missed and the decision was a poor one, this is not someone that was acting in disguise he was pretty damn open about his thug life behavior.

If you want to critique the contract, and think somehow the team should have known of these actions, suggest how they should have known these facts. Plenty of great players have history, but few kill people. If the police were not going after Hernandez at that time, then what precisely do you see the Pats doing that would have given their private investigation a leg up on the police? Everything you read is historical. It's amazing how brilliant people are when presented with all the current facts rather than meaningless pieces in real time. In the here and now, that information is often seemingly inconsequential. The 9/11 facts work the same way, when overlooking inconsequential details like the relevant facts facts were buried in millions of pages of irrelevancy.

 

[Patsrock]

I have no issue with them cutting Hernandez when they did and honestly I don't think Hernandez is the issue, I anticipate we will get relief for him.

My issue is with players like Adrian Wilson who hit our 2013 cap for $1.3 million and will hit our 2014 cap in some way while contributing absolutely nothing. I don't like the gambles on the old players anymore that used to be something that worked out for us but the last 3-4 seasons it has done nothing but hurt our cap.

Wilson tore his achillies. I believe he would have made roster and contributed.

 

[Brady6]

If you want to critique the contract, and think somehow the team should have known of these actions, suggest how they should have known these facts. Plenty of great players have history, but few kill people. If the police were not going after Hernandez at that time, then what precisely do you see the Pats doing that would have given their private investigation a leg up on the police? Everything you read is historical. It's amazing how brilliant people are when presented with all the current facts rather than meaningless pieces in real time. In the here and now, that information is often seemingly inconsequential. The 9/11 facts work the same way, when overlooking inconsequential details like the relevant facts facts were buried in millions of pages of irrelevancy.

I do not think anyone expected him to kills as I have said but there were other certainly reasons to structure the contract differently with clauses, etc.

I do not blame the Patriots directly; as a fan, I did not find issue with the contract at the time either but ignorance does not excuse the outcome.

As I have said, though I fully expect us to get relief for Hernandez so that is a moot point in my mind. I have bigger issues with players like Johnson, Lloyd, A. Wilson, Fanene, and some others who we have affecting multiple cap years and giving us nothing in production.

 

[fester]

I have no issue with them cutting Hernandez when they did and honestly I don't think Hernandez is the issue, I anticipate we will get relief for him.

My issue is with players like Adrian Wilson who hit our 2013 cap for $1.3 million and will hit our 2014 cap in some way while contributing absolutely nothing. I don't like the gambles on the old players anymore that used to be something that worked out for us but the last 3-4 seasons it has done nothing but hurt our cap.

Okay, so your beef is player evaluation and team building concepts (cap management is part of that of course). As others have pointed out, the % of dead space is well within historical norms for the Patriots, so they have not deviated from their system (too much or too noticable).

 

[BradyFTW!]

We are not the Raiders but I do not think we have been handling our cap as well in recent years.

Dead Money

2013
1. Raiders-$56,077,873
2. Jaguars-$42,549,248
3. Jets-$23,561,661
4. Chiefs-$19,210,278
5. Panthers-$18,751,824
6. Bills-$18,634,424
7. Cardinals-$18,548,488
8. Ravens-$17,539,275
9. Cowboys-$17,297,847
10. Patriots-$16,696,845
11. Browns-$15,225,153
12. Buccaneers-$15,115,208
13. Lions-$14,903,171
14. Falcons-$14,224,063
15. Eagles-$13,360,214
16. Titans-$13,087,216
17. Rams-$12,629,247
18. Chargers-$12,409,645
19. Dolphins-$12,320,126
20. Broncos-$11,873,857
21. Colts-$11,637,465
22. Steelers-$11,020,242
23. Giants-$9,201,353
24. Seahawks-$8,380,713
25. Texans-$6,880,285
26. Redskins-$6,805,286
27. Bears-$6,157,993
28. Bengals-$6,107,833
29. 49ers-$5,867,232
30. Saints-$5,732,888
31. Vikings-$5,196,210
32. Packers-$3,137,289
2014
1. Panthers-$12,240,241
2. Bills-$12,070,113
3. Cowboys-$11,809,439
4. Cardinals-$10,087,468
5. Raiders-$9,311,192
6. Patriots-$8,533,721
7. Chargers-$7,809,983
8. Browns-$7,194,157
9. Jaguars-$5,600,511
10. Dolphins-$4,942,896
11. Steelers-$4,552,933
12. Ravens-$4,422,216
13. Texans-$3,247,174
14. Falcons-$3,172,507
15. Titans-$2,449,725
16. 49ers-$1,934,689
17. Saints-$1,757,600
18. Lions-$1,537,793
19. Chiefs-$1,505,823
20. Bears-$1,476,671
21. Eagles-$1,348,343
22. Packers-$1,277,484
23. Broncos-$1,137,330
24. Bengals-$984,283
25. Seahawks-$907,367
26. Colts-$800,734
27. Giants-$403,141
28. Vikings-$333,163
29. Redskins-$155,233
30. Buccaneers-$139,119
31. Rams-$133,805
32. Jets-$48,958

Bummer, I usually like your posts but they're starting to turn into real trainwrecks lately. Of course the Pats have a lot of dead money working against them this year. I guess they should have anticipated that Aaron Hernandez was going to start murdering people?

 

[Patsrock]

I do not think anyone expected him to kills as I have said but there were other certainly reasons to structure the contract differently with clauses, etc.

I do not blame the Patriots directly; as a fan, I did not find issue with the contract at the time either but ignorance does not excuse the outcome.

As I have said, though I fully expect us to get relief for Hernandez so that is a moot point in my mind. I have bigger issues with players like Johnson, Lloyd, A. Wilson, Fanene, and some others who we have affecting multiple cap years and giving us nothing in production.

Looking at the Hernandez contract it was structured really well.

Wilson went on the IR- that doesn't bother me

Johnson was a bad trade.

Lloyd-had a good year but didn't work out and had a dead cap last year, but a cap credit this yr.

Fanene was a bad signing but also Fanene was not completely truthful with his injury. Thus the cap credit this year.

Also the Pats dead money did not prevent them from signing anyone. So it is not a big deal.

 

[Brady6]

Bummer, I usually like your posts but they're starting to turn into real trainwrecks lately. Of course the Pats have a lot of dead money working against them this year. I guess they should have anticipated that Aaron Hernandez was going to start murdering people?

Hernandez hit 2013 for $2.55m, the dead money was not as a result of only him.

 

[AzPatsFan]

In one word, EXCELLENT !!

 

[Coach42]

Hernandez hit 2013 for $2.55m, the dead money was not as a result of only him.

Correct but if you subtract his money from 13 that puts them at about 14.1 mil which would be 15th. So I would say meh not bad not good.

 

[SalemPats]

I think BB has done a good job. The early 2000s our defense was very good, with a lot of older high salary guys. We had to pay on the offense with young stars in Brady, mankins, wes, gronk, Aaron. We basically had to rebuild the defense through the draft because it was bare after we had to release a few good players (Seymour, willie, law, asante, lawyer, etc...). I think now we've been able to rebuild through the draft. The Aaron/Gronk contracts were good, Brady gave us a bit of a break. I think now we'll have more of a balanced team and be able to pay more of our defensive guys

 

[mgteich]

You have issue with Belichick hiring old veterans and would rather he start UDFA's. After all your posts, I understand.

A Wilson was a questionable choice. Not all veteran players are worth the money. Obviously, given that Wilson was injured, Belichick might have made a better choice. However, the issue here is NOT cap management. The issue is player evaluation.

Perhaps you are one who want to sign that one superstar at $7M - $10M instead of several mid-level players. That is certainly a possibility. That has almost never been Belichick's philosophy.

Belichick has acquired lots of old veterans over the years, with the idea of testing them and perhaps keeping them for awhile. That strategy certainly was part of the success of the dynasty years (2001-2004).

We have many months to come to understand that Belichick did an absolutely amazing job in 2013-2014, perhaps the best of his career. We should start a thread and make it a stickie that lists all the injuries from Training Camp onwards. Who knows how many fewer injuries might have moved us further than the apparently awful result of 12-4 and competing for the AFC championship.

It is not cap management that caused us to be ONLY 12-4 and fail to beat Denver.

To move forward, the answer is NOT to blow up the team, and start using brand new strategies. We have 12 UFA's to sign or replace. We need to decide about the future of three walking wounded: Wilfork, Kelly and Wilson. And we have to decide how to deal with players who COULD be upgraded, cut, extended or perhaps left alone (Amendola, Connolly, and Gregory). That's at least 18 decisions. At least some (to your chagrin) will be filled by older players who may or may not be injured in 2014. Count on it.

I have no issue with them cutting Hernandez when they did and honestly I don't think Hernandez is the issue, I anticipate we will get relief for him.

My issue is with players like Adrian Wilson who hit our 2013 cap for $1.3 million and will hit our 2014 cap in some way while contributing absolutely nothing. I don't like the gambles on the old players anymore that used to be something that worked out for us but the last 3-4 seasons it has done nothing but hurt our cap.

 

[Brady6]

You have issue with Belichick hiring old veterans and would rather he start UDFA's. After all your posts, I understand.

A Wilson was a questionable choice. Not all veteran players are worth the money. Obviously, given that Wilson was injured, Belichick might have made a better choice. However, the issue here is NOT cap management. The issue is player evaluation.

Perhaps you are one who want to sign that one superstar at $7M - $10M instead of several mid-level players. That is certainly a possibility. That has almost never been Belichick's philosophy.

Belichick has acquired lots of old veterans over the years, with the idea of testing them and perhaps keeping them for awhile. That strategy certainly was part of the success of the dynasty years (2001-2004).

We have many months to come to understand that Belichick did an absolutely amazing job in 2013-2014, perhaps the best of his career. We should start a thread and make it a stickie that lists all the injuries from Training Camp onwards. Who knows how many fewer injuries might have moved us further than the apparently awful result of 12-4 and competing for the AFC championship.

It is not cap management that caused us to be ONLY 12-4 and fail to beat Denver.

To move forward, the answer is NOT to blow up the team, and start using brand new strategies. We have 12 UFA's to sign or replace. We need to decide about the future of three walking wounded: Wilfork, Kelly and Wilson. And we have to decide how to deal with players who COULD be upgraded, cut, extended or perhaps left alone (Amendola, Connolly, and Gregory). That's at least 18 decisions. At least some (to your chagrin) will be filled by older players who may or may not be injured in 2014. Count on it.

Brady restructured his contract in 2013, 2012, and 2010 to free up cap space for this team, would our cap situation be as good if he did not do that, Brady’s cap hit is 13th amongst and 14th amongst APY for all NFL QBs, the team first QB certainly helps the cap hit, if Brady had a $22M cap hit like Eli Manning we’d be in a totally different situation.