Talking Defensive Tackles - 2014

[manxman2601]

VJC Patriot started a TE thread for this draft and considering the debate I've just had in Everlong's thread I think DT clearly needs a thread of it's own so that we can drill down into the position.

Here's a question I think worth considering. Stephon Tuitt is now a mid second rounder according to CBS Sports. Is that justified? Does that make him excellent Patriots value?

I like Tuitt if we were running an exclusive 3-4 because I think he's an front DE almost exclusively rather than one that can also operate as an even front DT. This would explain his falling value and also presumably limits his value to us. Having said that, we played with an odd front quite often last year and a Kelly/Armstead-Wilfork/Siliga-Tuitt front 3 with Jones and Ninkovich/Collins at OLB has some real appeal.

 

[everlong]

I think he's falling because he offers little in the area of pass rush. I think he can slide inside for a 4-3 but I think he's a run defender. He gets off blocks well and has a great motor but he just isn't going to make the impact plays in the passing game that teams want in a first rounder.

 

[manxman2601]

I think he's falling because he offers little in the area of pass rush. I think he can slide inside for a 4-3 but I think he's a run defender. He gets off blocks well and has a great motor but he just isn't going to make the impact plays in the passing game that teams want in a first rounder.

Well Nix isn't a pass rusher and Tuitt had 18.5 sacks in the last two years. He certainly doesn't have the athleticism or bust that Donald or Hageman have and I don't think he's a 10plus sack guy in the NFL but there aren't many of those at that position anyway.

Not to re-address the other debate but if we're trading Mallett for a mid second rounder, ASJ-Tuitt would suit me just fine with our first two picks.

 

[everlong]

What do you think of Timmy Jernigan if he falls to 29? At only 6-2 298 he doesn't fit the BB profile but Jamie Collins may show that he's moving to more athletic defenders. I love how active he is and yet very physical. I feel with some grooming he could be a beast.

Now I know he's likely gone but weird things happen to DL in the first round. Just look Richardson, Lotulelei and Floyd last year.

 

[patsinthesnow]

I haven't followed him because I was assuming he was out of our reach. So if Tuitt is falling because he lacks a pass rush, does that make him more or less the same player as his teammate Nix? If so, I'll pass.

My opinion on DT:

-Chris Jones is definitely an NFL caliber DT on limited snaps in a pass rushing role. He was pretty good early on in the season before he wore down due to playing nearly every snap. He's a keeper.

-Sealver Siliga has a spot on the team as well. He proved starting caliber towards the end of the year, as he played a big role in fixing the rush defense.

So we have two young DTs that we can count on for something in 2014.

The ??? group: Wilfork, Kelly, Armstead, Vellano

Vellano isn't an NFL caliber DT, but he could improve. Armstead is an unknown, and Wilfork/Kelly are mysteries as well. As long as one out of this group contributes, that gives us three DTs for 2014. That's a much better start than TE2.

 

[everlong]

Well Nix isn't a pass rusher and Tuitt had 18.5 sacks in the last two years. He certainly doesn't have the athleticism or bust that Donald or Hageman have and I don't think he's a 10plus sack guy in the NFL but there aren't many of those at that position anyway.

Not to re-address the other debate but if we're trading Mallett for a mid second rounder, ASJ-Tuitt would suit me just fine with our first two picks.

If that were to happen I would be onboard with ASJ but would I just don't think the value is there for Tuitt.

Now if Nix were to fall that far I'd advocate going with a 3-4 and let him control the middle and unleash the ends to one gap. Or put Nix and VW in the middle and assuming nothing is ever getting through there and run a 2-5-4. I believe Jones and Nink (obviously) could drop and Bill could scheme more to confuse the QB and OL.

 

[everlong]

I haven't followed him because I was assuming he was out of our reach. So if Tuitt is falling because he lacks a pass rush, does that make him more or less the same player as his teammate Nix? If so, I'll pass.

They're different types. Tuitt is roughly 6-6 310 so a true 3-4 DE body type. Nix is about 6-2 350 and a total load that could go on the nose.

 

[manxman2601]

I haven't followed him because I was assuming he was out of our reach. So if Tuitt is falling because he lacks a pass rush, does that make him more or less the same player as his teammate Nix? If so, I'll pass.

My opinion on DT:

-Chris Jones is definitely an NFL caliber DT on limited snaps in a pass rushing role. He was pretty good early on in the season before he wore down due to playing nearly every snap. He's a keeper.

-Sealver Siliga has a spot on the team as well. He proved starting caliber towards the end of the year, as he played a big role in fixing the rush defense.

So we have two young DTs that we can count on for something in 2014.

The ??? group: Wilfork, Kelly, Armstead, Vellano

Vellano isn't an NFL caliber DT, but he could improve. Armstead is an unknown, and Wilfork/Kelly are mysteries as well. As long as one out of this group contributes, that gives us three DTs for 2014. That's a much better start than TE2.

Spot on. We started last season with four Defensive Tackes on the final 53 man roster. If you assume a maximum of five there isn't great scope for adding lots of DTs in the draft anyway unless BB completely shakes up the position.

 

[manxman2601]

What do you think of Timmy Jernigan if he falls to 29? At only 6-2 298 he doesn't fit the BB profile but Jamie Collins may show that he's moving to more athletic defenders. I love how active he is and yet very physical. I feel with some grooming he could be a beast.

Now I know he's likely gone but weird things happen to DL in the first round. Just look Richardson, Lotulelei and Floyd last year.

I haven't focused enough on Jernigan because I didn't consider him a BB type previously because I thought of him as a one-gapper only. He did impress me in the Championship game however as a run stopper which intrigued me more.

 

[everlong]

I haven't focused enough on Jernigan because I didn't consider him a BB type previously because I thought of him as a one-gapper only. He did impress me in the Championship game however as a run stopper which intrigued me more.

That's exactly why I started to consider him more. He holds up pretty well against double teams and has a burst. In a rotation he should be one gapping more often than not.

 

[zimmy]

I don't want a run stuffing tackle in the 1st round. If they offer some pass rush, I'm happy. We have missed a real penetrating tackle since Seymour left. I know we've tried with Fanene, Kelly, Haynesworth etc over the last few seasons but none have been successful for various reasons. Kelly may still be able to provide that.

If there is an all round DT who can get after the passer we should take them. I'm thinking Donald but there may be others.

I think Tuitt offers some good value if he's still there later in the 2nd round but I'm not sure where he fits in this defence.

 

[manxman2601]

That's exactly why I started to consider him more. He holds up pretty well against double teams and has a burst. In a rotation he should be one gapping more often than not.

How often does our DL one-gap though? Even on passing downs I always thought Chris Jones was two-gapping although I might be wrong.

 

[stelfans]

Not a fan of getting a DT in this draft, especially that early.
But i think a CB and a DT should be the top priorities in FA and like patsinthesnow said i see our DT group next year being:Jones, Siliga, Armstead, Wilfork and FA signing. And there's still Kelly who was playong very well.

 

[manxman2601]

I don't want a run stuffing tackle in the 1st round. If they offer some pass rush, I'm happy. We have missed a real penetrating tackle since Seymour left. I know we've tried with Fanene, Kelly, Haynesworth etc over the last few seasons but none have been successful for various reasons. Kelly may still be able to provide that.

If there is an all round DT who can get after the passer we should take them. I'm thinking Donald but there may be others.

I think Tuitt offers some good value if he's still there later in the 2nd round but I'm not sure where he fits in this defence.

Kelly/Armstead - Wilfork/Siliga - Tuitt

Nink/Collins - Hightower - Mayo - Chandler Jones

makes me slightly moist.

 

[mayoclinic]

What do you think of Timmy Jernigan if he falls to 29? At only 6-2 298 he doesn't fit the BB profile but Jamie Collins may show that he's moving to more athletic defenders. I love how active he is and yet very physical. I feel with some grooming he could be a beast.

Now I know he's likely gone but weird things happen to DL in the first round. Just look Richardson, Lotulelei and Floyd last year.

Love Jernigan. Sort of fusion of Sylvester Williams and Sheldon Richardson. Great upside, and not a 1 trick pony.

Like Ebron at TE, he's someone I would consider worth a 1st for us.

 

[everlong]

How often does our DL one-gap though? Even on passing downs I always thought Chris Jones was two-gapping although I might be wrong.

I'm not sure how often but it should be more often. Obviously if you're playing the Vikings next year you're two gapping but against Denver, GB, etc what's the point?

 

[yopats]

I agree with Brother Mayo. .. here is my thoughts on the DLine

Release: Wilfork :bricks: , T. Kelly , Sopoga, Vellano

Sign: Arthur Jones

Draft:

Aaron Donald: DT Pitt ( I know he is not the prototypical Pats player) the dood is a beast and will be there at #33 {Mallett trade}

Justin Ellis DT: Louisiana Tech 6'2 - 342- Stout run stuffer under the radar 3rd/4th round pick.

Aaron Lynch DE- Replaces the Jake Bequette experiment. 4th round pick.

A. Jones / Armstead / Donald & Silliga / Ellis

Gives them amazing flexibility and youth and strength for years to come.

 

[manxman2601]

I agree with Brother Mayo. .. here is my thoughts on the DLine

Release: Wilfork :bricks: , T. Kelly , Sopoga, Vellano

Sign: Arthur Jones

Draft:

Aaron Donald: DT Pitt ( I know he is not the prototypical Pats player) the dood is a beast and will be there at #33 {Mallett trade}

Justin Ellis DT: Louisiana Tech 6'2 - 342- Stout run stuffer under the radar 3rd/4th round pick.

Aaron Lynch DE- Replaces the Jake Bequette experiment. 4th round pick.

A. Jones / Armstead / Donald & Silliga / Ellis

Gives them amazing flexibility and youth and strength for years to come.

I like your additions but that gives us the same problem at DT next year that we had at WR this year. Lots of inexperience.

 

[yopats]

I like your additions but that gives us the same problem at DT next year that we had at WR this year. Lots of inexperience.

IT seems like younger DL players seem to adapt to BB system .. i.e Chandler Jones, Chris Jones , Silliga, Vellano etc.

WR is a whole other animal.

I do think though it is a VERY young core.. as Arthur Jones would be the oldest guy.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[ausbacker]

Whatever path New England chooses, the team needs to start drafting impact players not solid and dependable guys (they already have a heap).

The fastest way to get to the QB is through the A-Gaps. Give me a NT/DT terror and I'll be a happy chappy come draft time.