Siliga (and the DT situation in general)

[TomPatriot]

He's been well-coached. Watch him. Quick hands to the chest every play on 2 technique, which seemed to be most of his assignments. On the 3rd and short where the Browns were awarded the first down after review, he got good push on 1 technique in the A gap and disrupted the play. He also forced Lauvao into movement leading to an offside on one play.

He was effective at his most important job: occupying space on inside runs. He even commanded a standard A-B (center-guard) double team a few times. That's why he was on the field so much.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Anything that keeps Vellano off the field is completely fine with me. For the past few weeks he's looked like our worst DT and the primary culprit for our woes against the run. I'd rather have a run-stopper on the field than Vellano, who doesn't really do anything well. Siliga is simply better than Vellano.

The Patriots didn't plan on having to throw Vellano in the fire the way they did (playing >60% of the snaps this season).

In any case, right now, a four-man rotation of Wilfork, Jones, Siliga, and Vellano for 2014 doesn't sound too bad. [I'm not saying that they should go with it, merely that it's not inconceivable that they could.]

 

[BradyFTW!]

The Patriots didn't plan on having to throw Vellano in the fire the way they did (playing >60% of the snaps this season).

In any case, right now, a four-man rotation of Wilfork, Jones, Siliga, and Vellano for 2014 doesn't sound too bad. [I'm not saying that they should go with it, merely that it's not inconceivable that they could.]

I agree that he's been every bit as good as we could have expected, and that this is a role that nobody ever expected to have to play him in. That's absolutely true, but it also doesn't change the fact that he's not very good. And I don't hold the Pats accountable for not being prepared to lose both Wilfork and Kelly, especially so early in the season. It's a bummer that this is the year they lost Wilfork, since in the past they've typically had a better space eater in their DT rotation, even if it was a guy like Brace or Love. But oh well.

If Wilfork and Kelly both come back healthy, then I'm fine with a 4 man rotation of Wilfork, Kelly, Siliga, and one of Jones/Armstead (or possibly both). That's a pretty good mix of different talents, especially with Chandler Jones able to line up inside on some passing downs. In an ideal world, I'd maybe like a 5th DT who can supply more bulk when Wilfork needs to rest (and he should be resting more), but it's nearly impossible to find a guy of Wilfork's size who has any athleticism at all, so maybe that's a pipe dream. That's what makes Wilfork so good in the first place. The only way I see Vellano making the team is if the veterans aren't able to come back on schedule. Even then, as an undersized guy, I don't see why more than two of Jones/Armstead/Vellano would make the team.

It reminds me of those couple years when the safety situation got so bad that guys like Brandon McGowan, James Ihedigbo, Sergio Brown, and Josh Barrett were seeing a bunch of snaps there. For each and every one of those guys, you could find posters claiming that these guys were legitimate pieces of the puzzle, because they'd played to varying levels of "I guess they could theoretically be worse" when pressed into duty. The bottom line, though, was that none of them were good, and that they were part of the problem rather than part of the solution. The secondary didn't get better until we got rid of guys like that, no matter how admirably they filled in when unexpectedly called upon. I feel the same way about Vellano. You can appreciate the fact that he answered the bell and did his best when needed while also acknowledging that just isn't good.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree that he's been every bit as good as we could have expected, and that this is a role that nobody ever expected to have to play him in. That's absolutely true, but it also doesn't change the fact that he's not very good. And I don't hold the Pats accountable for not being prepared to lose both Wilfork and Kelly, especially so early in the season. It's a bummer that this is the year they lost Wilfork, since in the past they've typically had a better space eater in their DT rotation, even if it was a guy like Brace or Love. But oh well.

If Wilfork and Kelly both come back healthy, then I'm fine with a 4 man rotation of Wilfork, Kelly, Siliga, and one of Jones/Armstead (or possibly both). That's a pretty good mix of different talents, especially with Chandler Jones able to line up inside on some passing downs. In an ideal world, I'd maybe like a 5th DT who can supply more bulk when Wilfork needs to rest (and he should be resting more), but it's nearly impossible to find a guy of Wilfork's size who has any athleticism at all, so maybe that's a pipe dream. That's what makes Wilfork so good in the first place. The only way I see Vellano making the team is if the veterans aren't able to come back on schedule. Even then, as an undersized guy, I don't see why more than two of Jones/Armstead/Vellano would make the team.

It reminds me of those couple years when the safety situation got so bad that guys like Brandon McGowan, James Ihedigbo, Sergio Brown, and Josh Barrett were seeing a bunch of snaps there. For each and every one of those guys, you could find posters claiming that these guys were legitimate pieces of the puzzle, because they'd played to varying levels of "I guess they could theoretically be worse" when pressed into duty. The bottom line, though, was that none of them were good, and that they were part of the problem rather than part of the solution. The secondary didn't get better until we got rid of guys like that, no matter how admirably they filled in when unexpectedly called upon. I feel the same way about Vellano.

If you're looking for a space eater and toilet clogger for 2014, and he's just going to be a rotational guy, Cody (Ravens) is going to be a free agent. He's Ron Brace without the versatility, but he's got to be an upgrade over what's currently functioning as a run stopper on the roster, pretty much by default.

 

[jah]

I agree that he's been every bit as good as we could have expected, and that this is a role that nobody ever expected to have to play him in. That's absolutely true, but it also doesn't change the fact that he's not very good. And I don't hold the Pats accountable for not being prepared to lose both Wilfork and Kelly, especially so early in the season. It's a bummer that this is the year they lost Wilfork, since in the past they've typically had a better space eater in their DT rotation, even if it was a guy like Brace or Love. But oh well.

If Wilfork and Kelly both come back healthy, then I'm fine with a 4 man rotation of Wilfork, Kelly, Siliga, and one of Jones/Armstead (or possibly both). That's a pretty good mix of different talents, especially with Chandler Jones able to line up inside on some passing downs. In an ideal world, I'd maybe like a 5th DT who can supply more bulk when Wilfork needs to rest (and he should be resting more), but it's nearly impossible to find a guy of Wilfork's size who has any athleticism at all, so maybe that's a pipe dream. That's what makes Wilfork so good in the first place. The only way I see Vellano making the team is if the veterans aren't able to come back on schedule. Even then, as an undersized guy, I don't see why more than two of Jones/Armstead/Vellano would make the team.

It reminds me of those couple years when the safety situation got so bad that guys like Brandon McGowan, James Ihedigbo, Sergio Brown, and Josh Barrett were seeing a bunch of snaps there. For each and every one of those guys, you could find posters claiming that these guys were legitimate pieces of the puzzle, because they'd played to varying levels of "I guess they could theoretically be worse" when pressed into duty. The bottom line, though, was that none of them were good, and that they were part of the problem rather than part of the solution. The secondary didn't get better until we got rid of guys like that, no matter how admirably they filled in when unexpectedly called upon. I feel the same way about Vellano. You can appreciate the fact that he answered the bell and did his best when needed while also acknowledging that just isn't good.

Ihedigbo is considered a solid, maybe even good starter for the Ravens now. The other three guys you mentioned were built up in the offseason/preseason to have potential and have shown flashes, but once they actually played meaningful snaps, it was obvious how bad they were (except for McGowan, who just fell off the face of the earth for no apparently reason). Jones and Siliga seem to actually be showing something.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Ihedigbo is considered a solid, maybe even good starter for the Ravens now. The other three guys you mentioned were built up in the offseason/preseason to have potential and have shown flashes, but once they actually played meaningful snaps, it was obvious how bad they were (except for McGowan, who just fell off the face of the earth for no apparently reason). Jones and Siliga seem to actually be showing something.

I'm not expecting Vellano to become an every-down player. But I do think he can be an effective player if he's playing, say, obvious pass-rushing downs, or as a sub next to a bigger DT (which is how they were originally using him).

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ihedigbo is considered a solid, maybe even good starter for the Ravens now. The other three guys you mentioned were built up in the offseason/preseason to have potential and have shown flashes, but once they actually played meaningful snaps, it was obvious how bad they were (except for McGowan, who just fell off the face of the earth for no apparently reason). Jones and Siliga seem to actually be showing something.

I was talking about Vellano. I agree that Jones and Siliga might actually be good, but the jury's still far more out on them than a lot of posters would care to admit. And Ihedigbo is by no means a good starter for the Ravens.

And not just because of this play. He just isn't good.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm not expecting Vellano to become an every-down player. But I do think he can be an effective player if he's playing, say, obvious pass-rushing downs, or as a sub next to a bigger DT (which is how they were originally using him).

How many players do you want on the 53 in that exact role, though? Because that's the same role that both Jones and Armstead are suited for, so having all of them would just be redundant.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

How many players do you want on the 53 in that exact role, though? Because that's the same role that both Jones and Armstead are suited for, so having all of them would just be redundant.

Well, if Armstead beats him out, so be it.

But Armstead is a complete unknown at this point, so I'm not counting on him making the 53 next year (any more than I'm expecting anything out of Mark Harrison or, for that matter, TJ Moe).

 

[BradyFTW!]

Well, if Armstead beats him out, so be it.

But Armstead is a complete unknown at this point.

True, but even if Armstead doesn't, it shouldn't be hard at all to find someone else who can at bottom of the roster money. We've seen enough of Vellano to know that he doesn't do anything at a better-than-JAG level; might as well give someone else a shot next season

 

[BradyBranch39]

the gordon run

one of the most awesome play calls I've seen this year, unfortunately.

 

[unoriginal]

I would guess that at this point Joe Vellano has played the largest number of snaps among the rookies on this team. After Wilfork went down and until this week he was drawing 60+ snaps a game. Keep in mind the Pats didn't pick up Chris Jones until Week 3 and didn't play him until Week 4.

It is quite probable Vellano was just the first guy to run smack into the rookie wall.

Let's also keep in mind that Sealver Siliga, the toast of this thread, was undrafted in 2011 and didn't do poo in the NFL until this past week.

We've seen Vellano play pretty well, and there is time for him to improve. Why write him off?

 

[Bill Lee]

Snap count Snaps: Siliga holds his own at nose tackle - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

C Jones: 65/76
Siliga: 53/76
Vellano: 22/76
Sopoaga: 2/76

Looks like Siliga has leapfrogged Vellano significantly.

Also, Sopoaga's fall from stud NT on the 9ers to now not being able to get snaps with this group is pretty incredible.

Awesome - a Silly vs. Soapy thread!

 

[Huckleberry1]

The Patriots didn't plan on having to throw Vellano in the fire the way they did (playing >60% of the snaps this season).

In any case, right now, a four-man rotation of Wilfork, Jones, Siliga, and Vellano for 2014 doesn't sound too bad. [I'm not saying that they should go with it, merely that it's not inconceivable that they could.]

I definitely want Kelly back and although I was never among those who considered Armstead a first rounder and a starter i still think he could get himself into the mix next season. I really want Arthur Jones but don't know if they will go that route.

 

[Sticky Caulk]

How much does everyone think Sopoaga would cost with a restructured contract to backup DT/NT for a few seasons?

 

[SVN]

To all the film gurus..would chris jones and vellano be more effective if the pats had a fast start and played with some sort of lead making teams pass more ?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

How much does everyone think Sopoaga would cost with a restructured contract to backup DT/NT for a few seasons?

Unless he shows a bit more effort, I don't think that's the right question to be asking.

 

[Hael]

To all the film gurus..would chris jones and vellano be more effective if the pats had a fast start and played with some sort of lead making teams pass more ?

Vellano and Jones are definitely better against the pass than the run, and are what you would call 3rd down inside players traditionally. Now they are rookies, and not quite physically or intellectually mature yet, but will one day be more than serviceable 3rd down starting grade NFL players.

It remains to be seen whether they can ever develop into starting grade all down linemen (I think Jones could), but they are definitely not there yet and are beginning to see wear and tear reduce their contributions somewhat.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I'm not sure how the snap counts ended up, but it looked like Siliga was on the field a lot. Interesting that they'd play him over Vellano, who has been starting for most of the season, and Sopoaga, who they actively went out and traded for and plays the same role as Siliga.

And I'm not really complaining, either, because he looked like he was doing a good job filling up space and taking over the nose tackle role.

I really have no idea what the defensive tackle depth chart could look like at this point. Seems like Jones is the guy who will be on the field for the most snaps, but besides that, how are Vellano/Siliga/Sopoaga ordered? Looks like a pretty even rotation, but if Siliga can build off this, I think the team would be better off playing him than Vellano (too small to take up space) and Sopoaga (the same type of player as Siliga but already lost snaps to him).

Of course, I could be completely wrong in my observations, being that I didn't pay very close attention to the second half of the game out of frustration. But at least the beginning of the game looked as if Siliga was one of the top DTs on the depth chart and holding up surprisingly well.

Good points and a good point of discussion.

The Patriots run defense has looked pretty feeble (granted there was scheme to some of the feebleness against Denver). The DL was getting blown up too frequently and it was one factor in making the LB's play look poor.
Siliga played a lot of in the Cleveland game and the run D was stout. While I can't say for certain it was a 1:1 thing (Siliga plays a lot = the reason the run D played much better), an assumption can be made. Sure, it's one game only, certainly not a good enough sample, but it provides hope. I think many of us know/knew that Jones/Vellano playing almost the entire game as the interior of the D line was a recipe for significant run D weakness. Siliga is the new hope for a critical weakness to be filled (TE not withstanding).

There's a lot of talk about 'the fates' simply blackballing the Patriots this year. Things like: It just isn't the patriots' year. The Patriots have had too many injuries/too much bad luck to have a serious chance for a serious SB run. Look for the Patriots position to slide as we get closer and closer to January. So Guess what? They're right from the standpoint of all the bad injury luck is making the 2013 SB chances look poorer and poorer. And when you consider the drop off at TE from Gronk to the players that are left, and how TE now appears to be a position that will have very little receiving yards production, it just keeps getting friggin uglier.

But you know what? let's see what happens. There ain't nuttin written in stone as of yet. But to turn what appears to be a bleaker and bleaker picture, it has to start with the D!! Run D and Pass D has to become stingy over large swaths of each game.
While the pass D has looked porous lately, the personnel still is there if they can get healthy and/or back in the groove. Talib? Wasn't he playing like a DPOY candidate a while back. Arrington? He's repeatedly shown decent stuff when in the slot. Dennard has repeatedly shown good CB ability/skills going back to last year. Logan showing some encouraging signs at times. McCourty is rock solid most of the time. Gregory is nearly back to health.
Run D? We still have a stout run defender in Spikes and some decent guys next to him. But we need that big, hard to move body at the NT/DT spot. Since Siliga is an unknown and showed one game of ability, we have hope he can provide that short yardage/first down ability to hold up the pile. This D still may have the people to be a tough D!

On the offensive side, we still have a guy who can bring A LOT of receiving ability out of the backfield (Vereen), we still have two guys who have shown very good slot production ability (not limited to slot), and we have two guys who have shown the ability to take it down the field and be successful, maybe 3 (these guys will get healthy!!).
Ridley is still a hell of a runner (hopefully fumbling is subsiding) and Blount is a good counter weight. And of course TB is the QB!

I know it looks like fate is not on the side of the Patriots, however, when you look at it you see the parts (with some improving health) to put together a very competitive team are there. It then falls onto BB and staff to see what they have and come up with groupings/scheme that maximizes it. If they can do that then we ain't out of business yet. But it will have to be done where the D holds down the scoring and the O has the ability to score when we absolutely need a score (they aren't likely to be the scoring machine of the years past - just is what it is on that front).
Amen!

 

[supafly]

I definitely want Kelly back

The way his contract was structured, it makes it very beneficial to the team if they release him after this year. Obviously, things can be done to keep him, but I have read that now in several different articles that claim his chances of staying don't look good at all.

How much does everyone think Sopoaga would cost with a restructured contract to backup DT/NT for a few seasons?

To say that his play has been a disappointment would be a tremendous understatement. He isn't a guy who will be back, nor does he seem to be able to offer a damn thing in my opinion. The position needs to be addressed in better ways that considering a guy like Sopoaga, who was nothing more than a move of desperation and value. Low risk, just didn't pay off.

To all the film gurus..would chris jones and vellano be more effective if the pats had a fast start and played with some sort of lead making teams pass more ?

I'm certainly no film guru, but it would seem to be very reasonable to think that they would be much better suited to their strengths (not stopping the run) should we have a lead and force teams to abandon the run more.