Amendola VS Welker

[Brady6]

Re: Re: Amendola VS Welker

But it's like Tune said, if they keep calling the kinda plays for Welker they did in the series he was in tonight then he'll get 80 receptions this year tops.

They won't, though.

You have Thomas and Decker both of whom average more yards per catch and create more big plays than Welker so who who exactly is going to lose their targets? He will see the 65-70 targets Stokley saw and then where are the rest coming from? Manning isn't going to throw it a 100 more times this year.

 

[Rob0729]

Dallas Clark caught an awful lot of passes from Manning. He is the best comparison.

I don't think he is a great comparison to Welker. Clark was more of a straight line runner than Welker was. And he is a 6'3" TE, not a 5'9" slot receiver. I am pretty sure that Manning didn't throw a lot of those low passes that Brady and Welker used because he ran so low to the ground.

Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon are closer comparisons to Welker since they played the same position. Welker better hope to God that the Collie comparisons don't stick since Collie got killed playing with Manning. Garcon is a different type of receiver (must faster, but less reliable).

Probably the best comparison is Brandon Stokely though. His playing style is probably the closest to Welker of the three. He did have 1,000 yards and 10 TDs in 2004 with Manning throwing to him (but that was the year manning threw for 4,555 yards and 49 TDs). Other years with Manning throwing to him were far less productive though.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there is a good comparison for Welker with Manning. Indy never really put a high priority on the slot WR and neither did Denver last year. Manning's primary targets were always outside receivers and the TEs. Many years, the RB played a bigger role in the passing game than the slot WR.

Whether Manning will utilize Welker or get as much out of Welker as Brady did is yet to be determined. Welker may be the or one of the best slot WRs of all time, but he also benefitted from a system and QB that utilized the slot WR more and better than most systems or QBs in the league.

 

[Rob0729]

Do you think Dallas Clark was a 3rd or 4th option on most plays for Manning? I sure don't. He went to that well quite often.

But it's like Tune said, if they keep calling the kinda plays for Welker they did in the series he was in tonight then he'll get 80 receptions this year tops.

They won't, though.

That's the one X factor no one is considering. As I said in my last post, Manning never put a high value of the slot WR. And since Manning is pretty much calling the shots on how the offense is run in Denver (they took his system and forced everyone else to learn it), they may be making Welker just fit into that system rather than use him the way they should to get the most out of him. And after 14 seasons of running the same offense, will Manning be willing to or able to change how he plays to get the same production of Welker?

It is way too early to tell based on one or two series in a preseason game. But is something to keep an eye on.

Welker is a great player. So unless he is injured or hits the age wall, he should still have some good production. But no players is a great fit for every system and if the Broncos don't utilize him right, his production will go down and not just from splitting attention from Manning with Thomas and Decker.

 

[TB12_laser designator]

Welker has durability, but I'm picking Amendola becasue he's that little bit taller, that little bit quicker and offers a better deep option.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't think he is a great comparison to Welker. Clark was more of a straight line runner than Welker was. And he is a 6'3" TE, not a 5'9" slot receiver. I am pretty sure that Manning didn't throw a lot of those low passes that Brady and Welker used because he ran so low to the ground.

Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon are closer comparisons to Welker since they played the same position. Welker better hope to God that the Collie comparisons don't stick since Collie got killed playing with Manning. Garcon is a different type of receiver (must faster, but less reliable).

Probably the best comparison is Brandon Stokely though. His playing style is probably the closest to Welker of the three. He did have 1,000 yards and 10 TDs in 2004 with Manning throwing to him (but that was the year manning threw for 4,555 yards and 49 TDs). Other years with Manning throwing to him were far less productive though.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there is a good comparison for Welker with Manning. Indy never really put a high priority on the slot WR and neither did Denver last year. Manning's primary targets were always outside receivers and the TEs. Many years, the RB played a bigger role in the passing game than the slot WR.

Whether Manning will utilize Welker or get as much out of Welker as Brady did is yet to be determined. Welker may be the or one of the best slot WRs of all time, but he also benefitted from a system and QB that utilized the slot WR more and better than most systems or QBs in the league.

Garcon was a flanker in Indy. Clark manned the slot, and was more of an H-Back type than a TE. The comparison, IMO, is fair. So are the comparisons to Gonzalez (when he was healthy) and Collie, but of whom sustained their fair share of injuries playing with Manning.

 

[Ivan]

Don't care about fantasy football but i am hoping Amendola can give the Patriots 80% of Welker's production. If so they should be fine offensively and the only problem will be getting the Bronco's off the field in the play-off's.

 

[Rob0729]

Garcon was a flanker in Indy. Clark manned the slot, and was more of an H-Back type than a TE. The comparison, IMO, is fair. So are the comparisons to Gonzalez (when he was healthy) and Collie, but of whom sustained their fair share of injuries playing with Manning.

You are right about Garcon, but I don't think you are right about Clark. Clark was more like Hernandez was in the Pats' offense the last few years. I wouldn't compare Welker's role to Hernandez other than both lined up in the slot from times to time (more than that for Welker).

Again though, one of Brady's and Welker's signature catch and throw was the low and away pass where Brady threw the ball about 2 feet off the ground in front of Welker where he could only catch it. That is certainly not a signature throw to Clark. If anything, Manning threw it above the defender. I just wonder if Manning has the same touch on the lower throws that Welker thrive on.

I can't remember the Manning to Clark connection all that well since I only watched Indy when they played the Pats or were on national TV, but I am sure that Manning utilized Clark's height to throw more jump balls to to Clark where he would fight for the ball with the defender. That is 100% different than Welker's game where Brady would use his small stature to beat defenders low.

Mentioning Welker comparisons to Gonzalez and Collie must send shivers up and down Welker's back though. I don't know if you can blame Manning for their injuries, but that is still scary company to be in.

 

[Kontradiction]

You are right about Garcon, but I don't think you are right about Clark. Clark was more like Hernandez was in the Pats' offense the last few years. I wouldn't compare Welker's role to Hernandez other than both lined up in the slot from times to time (more than that for Welker).

Again though, one of Brady's and Welker's signature catch and throw was the low and away pass where Brady threw the ball about 2 feet off the ground in front of Welker where he could only catch it. That is certainly not a signature throw to Clark. If anything, Manning threw it above the defender. I just wonder if Manning has the same touch on the lower throws that Welker thrive on.

I can't remember the Manning to Clark connection all that well since I only watched Indy when they played the Pats or were on national TV, but I am sure that Manning utilized Clark's height to throw more jump balls to to Clark where he would fight for the ball with the defender. That is 100% different than Welker's game where Brady would use his small stature to beat defenders low.

Mentioning Welker comparisons to Gonzalez and Collie must send shivers up and down Welker's back though. I don't know if you can blame Manning for their injuries, but that is still scary company to be in.

You are right about Garcon, but I don't think you are right about Clark. Clark was more like Hernandez was in the Pats' offense the last few years.

I can't remember the Manning to Clark connection all that well

Since you can't remember it all that well, I'll help you out. Manning didn't utilize a lot of jump balls to Clark. You're right in saying that Clark was more like Hernandez, though. But Hernandez and Welker both patrolled the same area of the field. They simply ran different routes and had different styles after the catch, which is what I think you're getting hung up on. Clark patrolled the same area of the field that Hernandez and Welker did. I think it's fair to compare the two, just as it was fair to compare how Hernandez would have replaced Welker in this offense by lining up in the slot (an argument that we saw a lot around here last year).

Agree with your last paragraph.

 

[Rob0729]

Since you can't remember it all that well, I'll help you out. Manning didn't utilize a lot of jump balls to Clark. You're right in saying that Clark was more like Hernandez, though. But Hernandez and Welker both patrolled the same area of the field. They simply ran different routes and had different styles after the catch, which is what I think you're getting hung up on. Clark patrolled the same area of the field that Hernandez and Welker did. I think it's fair to compare the two, just as it was fair to compare how Hernandez would have replaced Welker in this offense by lining up in the slot (an argument that we saw a lot around here last year).

Agree with your last paragraph.

I still remember Clark running far more vertical routes. The Colts killed the Pats in the AFC Championships with Clark running seam routes over the middle. And that is a different route than Welker usually runs.

And I never thought Hernandez was going to replace Welker. I might have thought he would line up in the slot, but using a receiver like Hernandez like you used Welker would have been a disaster. The routes Welker runs is better suited for a small shifty WR than a tall, fast TE. And Hernandez rarely covered the same area of the field or ran the same routes as Welker. He physically couldn't. If Hernandez was a Clark clone, then Welker and Clark are very different receivers.

I think the only similarities between Welker and Clark seems to be that they lined up in the slot and their routes were in the middle of the field. I can't see Clark running the same routes as Welker unless he had the best body control for a TE in league history because his size and weight would make it difficult to make the cuts and quick changes of direction that a small slot WR makes.

 

[Kontradiction]

I still remember Clark running far more vertical routes. The Colts killed the Pats in the AFC Championships with Clark running seam routes over the middle. And that is a different route than Welker usually runs.

Maybe against the Pats. When Clark was putting up the majority of his stats against us, he was mostly taking advantage of either the age (2006-2008) or ineptitude (2009) of our safeties. A quick search yields that roughly 92% of Clark's catches come in the short to intermediate areas of the field. A paltry 8% being deep. So, as you said in your last post that you didn't really watch the Colts unless they played the Pats, I can see how you would think that he went deep a lot. He did it more often against us than he usually did with anyone else. But, for the most part, he was patrolling the short to intermediate areas of the field. Crossing patterns, slants, and hitches are the routes I remember him running the most with the Colts.

And I never thought Hernandez was going to replace Welker. I might have thought he would line up in the slot, but using a receiver like Hernandez like you used Welker would have been a disaster. The routes Welker runs is better suited for a small shifty WR than a tall, fast TE.

Truth.

And Hernandez rarely covered the same area of the field or ran the same routes as Welker. He physically couldn't. If Hernandez was a Clark clone, then Welker and Clark are very different receivers.

Sure he did. All of the Pats receivers covered the short to intermediate areas of the field. That's why good defenses were able to slow our offense down while lesser defenses couldn't. It's also why the defenses we've played since Moss left have mostly taken the approach of clogging the middle of the field. They knew we didn't have anybody to threaten deep, so the safeties would cheat up. This is specifically because our receivers, Hernandez and Welker included, worked the same area of the field.

I think the only similarities between Welker and Clark seems to be that they lined up in the slot and their routes were in the middle of the field. I can't see Clark running the same routes as Welker unless he had the best body control for a TE in league history because his size and weight would make it difficult to make the cuts and quick changes of direction that a small slot WR makes.

You're confusing running the same routes with YAC. An H-Back like Clark and a Y receiver like Welker can very easily run the same routes. What happens afterward is the difference between the two, and Welker was, and probably still is, the best YAC WR in the NFL.