Patriots 2013 Training Camp - Day 8, Saturday August 3

[Ring 6]

My point is that to make the PS you need to clear waivers. Last year Yeatman and the other TE (who were supposed to be the 2nd cumming) got claimed by the Dolphins because the FO tried to sneak them on the practice squad.

That is extremely rare. But the idea that they were 'sneaking them' on the practice squad is backwards to me.
They didn't make the team. They probably wanted them on the practice squad, but they weren't sneaking them. They would not have been kept on the 53 if they knew they wouldn't clear waivers.
The practice squad is build from the 500 or so eligible players who aren't good enough to be on a 53. They don't have to be your own. No one loses sleep over not getting their 54th best player on the practice sqaud. Its foolhardy to keep a guy on your 53 over a better player because you think he will not clear waivers to the practice squad, because you are now losing the better player that you cut instead.

 

[Sciz]

Maybe an improved defense would inspire him to take the chance?

But I assume you're correct, it would be nice to have that extra roster spot.

I doubt the defense makes much difference. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference how good the defense is when the other team either ends up inside the 20 or gets a touchdown. Sure, it could be the difference between a FG and TD, but that's free points either way. The long-snapper has a better chance of preventing points relative to a part-time snapper than a 4th tight end or 7th wide receiver does at helping the team put up points.

 

[Brady6]

For individual players, no. Its impossible to really have those stats without analyzing game films and knowing the coverage calls.

Thank you my friend:youtheman:.

And what you've said about it being impossible without studying film, knowing the coverage is very true and something I had overlooked prior to your pointing it out.

 

[Ring 6]

It's a difficult one because BB has shown he's not averse to starting UDFAs and giving them a fair shot against their drafted counterparts. Conversely, BB is ruthless when it comes to list management and will make decisions he believes to be in the best interest of the team.

No one is saying he isn't competing on a level playing field.
Just that 8 days of practice is a tiny part of the equation, and, again, my comments are in response to a claim that he has already done too much to be cut.
If the analogy is running a 100 yard dash, he got out of the blocks well and looks good after 2 steps in a race against faster guys.

 

[ausbacker]

No one is saying he isn't competing on a level playing field.
Just that 8 days of practice is a tiny part of the equation, and, again, my comments are in response to a claim that he has already done too much to be cut.
If the analogy is running a 100 yard dash, he got out of the blocks well and looks good after 2 steps in a race against faster guys.

Why are you posting as if I don't understand what the premise of the conversation is?

 

[Brady6]

I doubt the defense makes much difference. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference how good the defense is when the other team either ends up inside the 20 or gets a touchdown. Sure, it could be the difference between a FG and TD, but that's free points either way. The long-snapper has a better chance of preventing points relative to a part-time snapper than a 4th tight end or 7th wide receiver does at helping the team put up points.

Good point. I'm now in agreement, you've shown me the light :humble:

 

[Bruins29]

That is extremely rare. But the idea that they were 'sneaking them' on the practice squad is backwards to me.
They didn't make the team. They probably wanted them on the practice squad, but they weren't sneaking them. They would not have been kept on the 53 if they knew they wouldn't clear waivers.
The practice squad is build from the 500 or so eligible players who aren't good enough to be on a 53. They don't have to be your own. No one loses sleep over not getting their 54th best player on the practice sqaud. Its foolhardy to keep a guy on your 53 over a better player because you think he will not clear waivers to the practice squad, because you are now losing the better player that you cut instead.

I agree with you. But I think teams have to play chess. For instance BB might like to have Jenkins here as insurance...which would be logical. And he might try to get Thompkins to the PS. Or they may just feel Thompkins is just either better now or has more upside even if he isnt.

It seems like since DA, JE, MS, and the picks are locks that leaves one spot for whomever is left. Cut Jenkins he is probably gone. Cut Thompkins there is a good chance he clears waivers. So, while I agree it should always be about the best 53 and value sometimes it is not always black and white.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree with you. But I think teams have to play chess. For instance BB might like to have Jenkins here as insurance...which would be logical. And he might try to get Thompkins to the PS. Or they may just feel Thompkins is just either better now or has more upside even if he isnt.

It seems like since DA, JE, MS, and the picks are locks that leaves one spot for whomever is left. Cut Jenkins he is probably gone. Cut Thompkins there is a good chance he clears waivers. So, while I agree it should always be about the best 53 and value sometimes it is not always black and white.

We also have kept only 5 WRs including Slater in the past. Seems less likely this year, but then it kind of did last year too.

 

[Ring 6]

Why are you posting as if I don't understand what the premise of the conversation is?

Because of the comment you posted.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Why are you posting as if I don't understand what the premise of the conversation is?

He likes to talk down to people. Makes him feel better about himself

 

[Ring 6]

He likes to talk down to people. Makes him feel better about himself

Your obsession with me is creepy.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Thompkins is an UDFA who has participated in 8 NFL practices, of which I believe one was with pads.
Lets not put him in Canton just yet.

I can't speak for anyone else but, I'm projecting him to make it not in a vacuum. The veterans are very underwhelming. Jenkins and Edelman, neither of whom are even on guaranteed contracts, are his competition.

I expect him to be the 5th receiver on the depth chart initially, not exactly prepping his bust.

Other than being older and tall what advantage does Jenkins really have over Thompkins? Neither have been in this system before and are relative unknowns. So I'm not really sure what your basing your projection off of, if not camp performance to this point. If the reports are any indicaton, Jenkins is losing the battle thus far. Considering our pass catcher situation as well as BB's past M.O, I think its safe to say play on the field will dictate the depth chart. The only play we or the coaches have to go on, in this system, is camp and preseason. If Thompkins stinks when the preseason bullets are flying then that changes the discussion.

 

[Ring 6]

I can't speak for anyone else but, I'm projecting him to make it not in a vacuum. The veterans are very underwhelming. Jenkins and Edelman, neither of whom are even on guaranteed contracts, are his competition.

I expect him to be the 5th receiver on the depth chart, not exactly prepping his bust.

Other than being older and tall what advantage does Jenkins really have over Thompkins? Neither have been in this system before and are relative unknowns. So I'm not really sure what your basing your projection off of, if not camp performance to this point. If the reports are any indicaton, Jenkins is losing the battle thus far. Considering our pass catcher situation as well as BB's past M.O, I think its safe to say play on the field will dictate the depth chart. The only play we or the coaches have to go on, in this system, is camp and preseason. If Thompkins stinks when the preseason bullets are flying then that changes the discussion.

Well first of all I'm not projecting anything, I'm the one saying it is way too early to judge.
Jenkins is a veteran NFL WR who has proven he has the skills to produce in the league. Thompkins went undrafted and hasn't played in a preseason game. Are you really asking me what points are in Jenkins favor?
Jenkins may be unknown to you, but he certainly isn't unknown to BB and the NFL.
Going by 8 practices is like grading an essay on the first sentence. I am not the one saying its time to evaluate, I'm the one saying specifically, I disagree with the statement that 'Thompkins has already done too much to get cut".

 

[ausbacker]

Because of the comment you posted.

A comment that was in support of Belichick's roster management skills and general agreement with your let's not designate a bust in Canton just yet but enjoy the positive remarks and apparent growth?

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Well first of all I'm not projecting anything, I'm the one saying it is way too early to judge.
Jenkins is a veteran NFL WR who has proven he has the skills to produce in the league. Thompkins went undrafted and hasn't played in a preseason game. Are you really asking me what points are in Jenkins favor?
Jenkins may be unknown to you, but he certainly isn't unknown to BB and the NFL.
Going by 8 practices is like grading an essay on the first sentence. I am not the one saying its time to evaluate, I'm the one saying specifically, I disagree with the statement that 'Thompkins has already done too much to get cut".

I'm with you there, I disagree with that statement as well, but I also disagree that we cant discuss camp progress as it happens. Jenkins has zero games played, zero balls caught, zero yards and zero TD's in this system. So he effectively has proven nothing here. Jenkins' previous NFL experience is what got him signed, but it wont keep him on the roster.

If he continues to not set himself apart from UDFA's in preseason I doubt his mediocre numbers on previous NFL rosters will keep him here over younger players that are.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm with you there, I disagree with that statement as well, but I also disagree that we cant discuss camp progress as it happens. Jenkins has zero games played, zero balls caught, zero yards and zero TD's in this system. So he effectively has proven nothing here. Jenkins' previous NFL experience is what got him signed, but it wont keep him on the roster. If he continues to not set himself apart from UDFA's in preseason I doubt his mediocre numbers on previous NFL rosters will keep him here over younger players that are.

Jenkins NFL production shows his capability. The numbers themselves are not the point, its that they indicate he can play at this level, and Thompkins has not shown that yet so I'm not convinced after 8 practices he is a better player.
By your argument if we signed Calvin Johnson, he would start on equal footing with Thompkins. Now I know thats not what you are saying, but Jenkins has proven he can play in this league, and Thompkins has not. 8 practices, 7 of which were in shorts doesn't bridge that gap. He certainly can beat out Jenkins, but it won't be because of a week of practice.
As I have said, lets judge him by how he plays in game conditions against players who can and want to hit him and play at the speed of an NFL game, which is what normally separates camp heros from real players. Hopefully he is the latter, but we just don't know yet.

 

[Ring 6]

A comment that was in support of Belichick's roster management skills and general agreement with your let's not designate a bust in Canton just yet but enjoy the positive remarks and apparent growth?

No. Because I was discussing that 8 practices tell us next to nothing about the player, and you commented about UDFAs making the roster.
In other words, you quoted my post with something different than its point, so i reiterated what I meant.

 

[ausbacker]

No. Because I was discussing that 8 practices tell us next to nothing about the player, and you commented about UDFAs making the roster.
In other words, you quoted my post with something different than its point, so i reiterated what I meant.

FFS Andy. It's rather simple. 8 practices do tell you a lot about a player in competition (as a short term mode of comparison) and Belichick has proven that it's a level playing field irregardless of mode of acquisition. How you've run with that is beyond belief.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Jenkins NFL production shows his capability. The numbers themselves are not the point, its that they indicate he can play at this level, and Thompkins has not shown that yet.

We have seen players come into camp and not hack it, traded for and do nothing and some have been superior to Jenkins in both skill and production. My point is, he was signed because his past proved he was worth signing, thats it, BB owes him nothing based on the past.


I'm not convinced after 8 practices he is a better player.

That is why I brought up preseason in my post.

By your argument if we signed Calvin Johnson, he would start on equal footing with Thompkins. Now I know thats not what you are saying, but Jenkins has proven he can play in this league, and Thompkins has not. 8 practices, 7 of which were in shorts doesn't bridge that gap. He certainly can beat out Jenkins, but it won't be because of a week of practice.

I think part of what we all appreciate about our coach is that roster spots are dictated by play and not reputation or draft status. I think there are very little politics on a BB team. If Calvin Johnson came into camp and looked how Jenkins has looked he wouldn't be Calvin Johnson.


As I have said, lets judge him by how he plays in game conditions against players who can and want to hit him and play at the speed of an NFL game, which is what normally separates camp heros from real players. Hopefully he is the latter, but we just don't know yet.

Why can't we do both, we're just fans on a message board after all. I think they both have something to prove in preseason. I am rooting for Thompkins for upside sake, but he needs to carry his camp momentum into preseason for sure. Jenkins needs to show he can replicate past success in this system in preseason as well. Both of these guys are only depth imo anyway. Thompkins being young has the added bonus of possibly becoming more than a jag if your an optimist. Jenkins is what he is, a slow, big possession receiver on the wrong side of 30.

 

[jmt57]

Regarding the departed Elvis:

OT Elvis Fisher, released by Patriots, expected to undergo knee surgery.
Team hopes he'll land on IR with former Mizzou teammate, T.J. Moe.​