A possible return to the 3-4?

[Benjamin Brady]

A recent article posted on PatsPulpit recently got me thinking about the direction of this defense going forward, and the possibilities for next season. While the old moniker of being a strict 3-4 or 4-3 team is dead with the increase of sub packages and hybrid fronts, teams are still largely known defensively for what they base out of. For the Patriots, they began the 2000s with a 4-3, winning their first Super Bowl, before switching to the 3-4 in 2003 and becoming one of the most dominant defenses in NFL history. The 3-4 was a staple of Patriots success until 2011, when the team brought in veterans such as Andre Carter, Mark Anderson, and Albert Haynesworth, and began to transition to a 4-3 base. This past year was a further evolution of the transition, though there was still a recognizable 3-4 aspect of it to begin the season.

Bill Belichick has long been a defensive guru, especially with the 3-4. Looking back at his success with the Giants and Lawrence Taylor, it was the 3-4 that won them the Super Bowl. In the book "War Room," it clearly states that Bill has always preferred a defense with 2-gap principles (which to his credit he has still accomplished with the 4-3 they run today).

Ok, no more overhyping the fabled "3-4." But it is still an interesting discussion from a personnel viewpoint. Taking a look at some of the Patriots' most versatile players (positions based on previous experience and my own observations):

* Chandler Jones - Can play 3-4 OLB, 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE
* Rob Ninkovich - Can play 3-4 ILB, 3-4 OLB, 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, 4-3 MLB, 4-3 OLB
* Jerod Mayo - Any LB position in 4-3 or 3-4
* Brandon Spikes - 3-4 ILB, 4-3 MLB
* Dont'a Hightower - 3-4 ILB, 3-4 OLB, 4-3 MLB, 4-3 OLB, 4-3 DE
* Jamie Collins - 3-4 ILB, 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE

Using the above players as the foundation, there is clear versatility among the "Linebacker" group. Many can play down at end in 4-man fronts, but they can all play some sort of position in the 3-4. In a NFL where defenses need to get their best athletes out on the field, would the 3-4 allow them to do as as opposed to the 4-3?

Looking at possible lineups:

3-4:
DE - Chandler Jones - Jake Bequette
NT - Vince Wilfork - Kyle Love
DE - Armond Armstead - Tommy Kelly
OLB - Dont'a Hightower - Michael Buchanan
ILB - Jerod Mayo
ILB - Brandon Spikes - Dane Fletcher
OLB - Rob Ninkovich - Jamie Collins

vs:

4-3:
DE - Chandler Jones - Michael Buchanan
DT - Vince Wilfork - Tommy Kelly
DT - Kyle Love - Armond Armstead
DE - Rob Ninkovich - Justin Francis
OLB - Dont'a Hightower - Jamie Collins
MLB - Brandon Spikes - Dane Fletcher
OLB - Jerod Mayo

While both fronts utilize largely the same personnel (making for easy transitions between fronts in a hybrid scheme), you can see that in the 3-4 front, there would be more flexibility and more ways to get the strongest part of your roster (the Linebackers) onto the field.

Maybe there is some evidence to support this with how Jamie Collins and Michael Buchanan were drafted (both very good 3-4 players in college), or maybe I just wasted your time with this thread. I still think it's an interesting discussion to have.

Thoughts?

Should Patriots Look to the 3-4? - Pats Pulpit

Has anyone had an opportunity to see Chandler Jones this offseason? I'd be interested to know if he had any size and if so how much?

 

[DocHoliday]

Has anyone had an opportunity to see Chandler Jones this offseason? I'd be interested to know if he had any size and if so how much?

Word is he's packing on pounds on his upper body. Nobody has said anything though, he just said he was planning it.

Interestingly enough, Stevan Ridley was reported to be looking very beefy in his upper body.

 

[Benjamin Brady]

Word is he's packing on pounds on his upper body. Nobody has said anything though, he just said he was planning it.

Interestingly enough, Stevan Ridley was reported to be looking very beefy in his upper body.

I'd like to see him at DE in an under with Hightower right next to him as a SAM and Collins across as a LEO.

 

[Big-T]

Hard to tell with different angles etc but his arms certainly look a lot bigger:
2013: Photo by chan95jones • Instagram
2012: http://bostonherald.com/sites/default/files/media/2012/10/20/5ad0ae_ltppatriots20121020.jpg

 

[TomPatriot]

Whether a defense lines up in a 3-4 or 4-3 is a trivial component of any defensive scheme.

 

[VrabelJr]

Before I get going, from this point forward 3-4 will refer to our "old" 3-4 which was a two-gapping 30 front with a 5-tech DT (called a DE in 3-4), NT, and 3-tech DT (called a DE in 3-4).

The problem with running the 3-4 is that we don't have the DL to play it anymore. NT is fine with Wilfork and Love backing him up but the two DE positions aren't. We brought in Kelly and Armstead but they seem more fit to play inside a 4-3.

Enter the 4-3 under.

The 4-3 under looks a lot like the 3-4 but gives us the luxury of versatility of two-gapping and one-gapping by playing to the weak side of the OL. Usually the weak side DE, which would be Jones or Buchanan assuming everyone is healthy, is going to be playing from a two-point stance. Next to him is going to be your aggressive DT in the gap between the LT and LG. This will most likely be Kelly or Armstead. The other DT will usually be playing between the Center and RG and him taking up double teams is crucial to the weak side being able to get the 1-on-1 matchups. Thank god we have Vince Wilfork at this position.

The strong side of the DL is where things get interesting. The strong side DE/DT is where you're going to have the most influx of players depending on downs and distance. Think of how the Seahawks use Red Bryant (a player we went after in FA two years ago). Sometimes you'll go big with a player like Red Bryant. In our case this would be someone like Brandon Deaderick or Tommy Kelly (if he isn't playing the other DT spot). Other times you go smaller here with a more natural DE such as Ninkovich, Francis or Cunningham.

The other key player on the strong side is your SAM linebacker. He's going to be responsible for hitting the TE on every play, rushing the passer or dropping into coverage against the TE. This is really where guys like Collins and Ninkovich(if he isn't playing DE on that play) come in. If all goes well, your Mike and Will LBs have two gaps to cover, one on the strong side in between RT and RG and one on the weak side in between C and LG.

A quick look at the positions and who can play them:

Weak side DE/Elephant/Leo: Chandler Jones, Buchanan, Collins
Weak side DT: Kelly, Armstead, Deaderick
Strong side DT/NT: Vince Wilfork, Kyle Love
Strong side DE Ninkovich, Francis, , Bequette, Cunningham
Strong side heavy "DE": Deaderick, Kelly, Armstead(maybe but doubtful)

Strong side LB: Ninkovich, Collins, Hightower
Middle LB: Spikes, Hightower, Beauharnais, Rivera
Weak side LB: Mayo, Fletcher, Tarpinian

You'll notice we have a ton of overlap at the DE positions and Strong side LB and that my friends is a good thing.

EDIT: While I've put all this wonderful ink to internet paper, the success of our defense largely rests on our Front 7. We have some serious youth that we're going to rely on to contribute in big ways. Players like Jones, Hightower, Francis and Bequette need to make big jumps in their 2nd years and we need Armstead (especially), Collins and Buchanon to be ahead of the curve.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

The problem with having this discussion is that we don't have enough information.

-What are the rookies going to bring to the table?

-What are the 2nd year players going to bring to the table? BB has often said the greatest leap players make is between their first and second years.

-What are the veteran free agents going to bring to the table?

What we do on defense depends on the strength of our personnel. For example, the alignments that you play the DL at are going to be different if you start Tommy Kelly than if you start Kyle Love. Until we find out what Tommy Kelly can do we don't know who the best option on the roster is.

Look at how the defense changed when Talib and Dennard were on the field together with McCourty over the top. BB is a pragmatist, and he will tailor the defense to suit his players. So lets hold off on the talk about fronts for now.

 

[Fencer]

What we do on defense depends on the strength of our personnel. For example, the alignments that you play the DL at are going to be different if you start Tommy Kelly than if you start Kyle Love. Until we find out what Tommy Kelly can do we don't know who the best option on the roster is.

Look at how the defense changed when Talib and Dennard were on the field together with McCourty over the top. BB is a pragmatist, and he will tailor the defense to suit his players. So lets hold off on the talk about fronts for now.

We have Bingo.

I don't think it really depends on what suits our best players; they'll fit into a variety of schemes. (I'm guessing Mayo was one of relatively few OLB signal-callers in the league last season; I'm further guessing that that oddity caused very few if any problems.)

It depends more on where the strengths are in the next tier.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Francis is a jag. I hope better players emerge to keep him off the field.

I'd hold off the talk about Francis as a known quantity (JAG vs. rotational contributor) before we see what he does between years 1 and 2. I hope the best players emerge of course - but perhaps Francis is one of them.

 

[Off The Grid]

So lets hold off on the talk about fronts for now.

So sorry.

What may we talk about?

 

[Off The Grid]

Word is he's packing on pounds on his upper body. Nobody has said anything though, he just said he was planning it.

Interestingly enough, Stevan Ridley was reported to be looking very beefy in his upper body.

I'd like to see him at DE in an under with Hightower right next to him as a SAM and Collins across as a LEO.

That's ridiculous.

Ridley's best position is obviously at Middle LineBacker on Running Downs.

...Just don't ask'm to drop back into Pass Coverage. :nooo:

 

[Benjamin Brady]

Before I get going, from this point forward 3-4 will refer to our "old" 3-4 which was a two-gapping 30 front with a 5-tech DT (called a DE in 3-4), NT, and 3-tech DT (called a DE in 3-4).

The problem with running the 3-4 is that we don't have the DL to play it anymore. NT is fine with Wilfork and Love backing him up but the two DE positions aren't. We brought in Kelly and Armstead but they seem more fit to play inside a 4-3.

Enter the 4-3 under.

The 4-3 under looks a lot like the 3-4 but gives us the luxury of versatility of two-gapping and one-gapping by playing to the weak side of the OL. Usually the weak side DE, which would be Jones or Buchanan assuming everyone is healthy, is going to be playing from a two-point stance. Next to him is going to be your aggressive DT in the gap between the LT and LG. This will most likely be Kelly or Armstead. The other DT will usually be playing between the Center and RG and him taking up double teams is crucial to the weak side being able to get the 1-on-1 matchups. Thank god we have Vince Wilfork at this position.

The strong side of the DL is where things get interesting. The strong side DE/DT is where you're going to have the most influx of players depending on downs and distance. Think of how the Seahawks use Red Bryant (a player we went after in FA two years ago). Sometimes you'll go big with a player like Red Bryant. In our case this would be someone like Brandon Deaderick or Tommy Kelly (if he isn't playing the other DT spot). Other times you go smaller here with a more natural DE such as Ninkovich, Francis or Cunningham.

The other key player on the strong side is your SAM linebacker. He's going to be responsible for hitting the TE on every play, rushing the passer or dropping into coverage against the TE. This is really where guys like Collins and Ninkovich(if he isn't playing DE on that play) come in. If all goes well, your Mike and Will LBs have two gaps to cover, one on the strong side in between RT and RG and one on the weak side in between C and LG.

A quick look at the positions and who can play them:

Weak side DE/Elephant/Leo: Chandler Jones, Buchanan, Collins
Weak side DT: Kelly, Armstead, Deaderick
Strong side DT/NT: Vince Wilfork, Kyle Love
Strong side DE Ninkovich, Francis, , Bequette, Cunningham
Strong side heavy "DE": Deaderick, Kelly, Armstead(maybe but doubtful)

Strong side LB: Ninkovich, Collins, Hightower
Middle LB: Spikes, Hightower, Beauharnais, Rivera
Weak side LB: Mayo, Fletcher, Tarpinian

You'll notice we have a ton of overlap at the DE positions and Strong side LB and that my friends is a good thing.

EDIT: While I've put all this wonderful ink to internet paper, the success of our defense largely rests on our Front 7. We have some serious youth that we're going to rely on to contribute in big ways. Players like Jones, Hightower, Francis and Bequette need to make big jumps in their 2nd years and we need Armstead (especially), Collins and Buchanon to be ahead of the curve.

I feel like we ran a 4-3 odd with the strong side lined up on the right side of the formation in most situations.

 

[DocHoliday]

That's ridiculous.

Ridley's best position is obviously at Middle LineBacker on Running Downs.

...Just don't ask'm to drop back into Pass Coverage. :nooo:

Haha I think he was referring to Jones.

 

[Off The Grid]

Haha I think he was referring to Jones.

No doubt, no doubt!!

 

[supafly]

So sorry.

What may we talk about?

Why nothing more than the following...of course:

--the sorry state of our WRs (it could be the worst since 06 if you haven't heard)

--should we bring Randy Moss back? huh, should we?

--whether or not we'll get a first rounder or "just" a second for Ryan Mallett in a trade during the draft of 2012...wait, no 2013...wait, no 2014

--Will Gronk have surgery #4, #5, or #6 in the calendar year of 2013? Are these surgeries due to beer bonging, shotskis, or some strange amyl nitrate poppers addiction?

--Jake Ballard and his Mark Bavaro/pro bowl impression

--Will Matt Slater actually make the 53 man roster?

 

[Off The Grid]

Why nothing more than the following...of course:

--the sorry state of our WRs (it could be the worst since 06 if you haven't heard)

--should we bring Randy Moss back? huh, should we?

--whether or not we'll get a first rounder or "just" a second for Ryan Mallett in a trade during the draft of 2012...wait, no 2013...wait, no 2014

--Will Gronk have surgery #4, #5, or #6 in the calendar year of 2013? Are these surgeries due to beer bonging, shotskis, or some strange amyl nitrate poppers addiction?

--Jake Ballard and his Mark Bavaro/pro bowl impression

--Will Matt Slater actually make the 53 man roster?

Thanks for the Clarification.

Brother Shataway has genuine Rookie of the Year Potential...but I do not abide Censorship.

And I cannot even conceive of the Arrogance of telling people what they should discuss. :nooo:

 

[VrabelJr]

I feel like we ran a 4-3 odd with the strong side lined up on the right side of the formation in most situations.

Isn't odd just a synonym for under? I could be wrong though.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Thanks for the Clarification.

Brother Shataway has genuine Rookie of the Year Potential...but I do not abide Censorship.

And I cannot even conceive of the Arrogance of telling people what they should discuss. :nooo:

Heh. Thanks Off The Grid. I didn't mean to censor the speculation. After all, speculation is fun. But I just felt the need to remind people that ultimately that's what it is, until we have more information. So getting into "you don't know what you're talking about!" type arguments is even more pointless than usual.

 

[Off The Grid]

Heh. Thanks Off The Grid. I didn't mean to censor the speculation. After all, speculation is fun. But I just felt the need to remind people that ultimately that's what it is, until we have more information. So getting into "you don't know what you're talking about!" type arguments is even more pointless than usual.

Can't argue with your Argument. And thanks for taking it in the right Spirit.

Very happy that you've joined and thus elevated the Discussion.

 

[Benjamin Brady]

Isn't odd just a synonym for under? I could be wrong though.

I don't know. I know in madden 13 they call the formation a 4-3 over odd. But that's a video game.