Likely Receiving core: What do you think?

[Jimke]

If the Patriots surprise me and draft a wide receiver, I hope they stay away from players who have attended colleges with late graduation dates. These
players cannot report until after graduation and miss out on OTAs and mini-camps. Price and, I believe, Ebert were such players.

 

[upstater1]

If Allen is indeed dropping to the second round, I'd support trading the 1st and the 3rd for 2 seconds (if anyone even has 2 seconds).

If they could get Allen in the second and a guy like Terrence Williams/Wheaton lower in the second, that could reserve their own 2nd rounder for BPA.

 

[belichick010405]

If Allen is indeed dropping to the second round, I'd support trading the 1st and the 3rd for 2 seconds (if anyone even has 2 seconds).

If they could get Allen in the second and a guy like Terrence Williams/Wheaton lower in the second, that could reserve their own 2nd rounder for BPA.

Upstater - would you draft someone like Williams in the 2nd round on a trade down on their 1st round pick and bringing back Lloyd in order to solidify the receiving corp?

That is the likely solution that the Patriots brain trust is processing.....

 

[tonyto3690]

Unless we draft a guy who turns into the second coming of Calvin Johnson (it's not happening), spending a high pick on a guy who will be AT BEST the #3 option (and likely #4 at best for the next couple years) is just terrible. Especially given the shape our defense is in

 

[upstater1]

Upstater - would you draft someone like Williams in the 2nd round on a trade down on their 1st round pick and bringing back Lloyd in order to solidify the receiving corp?

That is the likely solution that the Patriots brain trust is processing.....

I think they need to hit on at least one rookie at this point, which means they need to draft two.

 

[Paul_Newman]

Unless we draft a guy who turns into the second coming of Calvin Johnson (it's not happening), spending a high pick on a guy who will be AT BEST the #3 option (and likely #4 at best for the next couple years) is just terrible. Especially given the shape our defense is in

You can argue every receiver they have is a third or fourth option. I think the Patriots are in the position they must draft one with the first two picks, and hope he really can play.

Because their receiving core is a joke. Teams are going to packing the middle more than ever.

I wouldn't be surprise if Brady's passer rating dips in the 80's. They shouldn't have been in this position, but now they are.

 

[primetime]

The word is corps. Not core, not corp.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

You can argue every receiver they have is a third or fourth option. I think the Patriots are in the position they must draft one with the first two picks, and hope he really can play.

Because their receiving core is a joke. Teams are going to packing the middle more than ever.

I wouldn't be surprise if Brady's passer rating dips in the 80's. They shouldn't have been in this position, but now they are.

We don't necessarily need a Calvin Johnson to complete everything on the receiving corps, which would be great if it happened. You have to remember, that had Rob Gronkowski stayed healthy the last Championship game, and Superbowl that we might have won and by a good margin. Additionally, people are underestimating the value of the moves at WR that Bill Billicheck has already made. As has been pointed out time and time again, Danny Amendola is a devastatingly underestimated move, all based on a guy's health. This was a guy that analyst praised as a top free-agent pick up for any team, being he is great in the slot, young and can GET DOWN FIELD and make plays. We'll be able to do more with him and get more value out of him then what we did with Wes Welker who was great at one position and that was the slot. Also, keep in mind that TE Jake Ballard will be with us this season and healthy, meaning that Aaron Hernandez could see more time at wide receiver, and he has dynamic playmaking ability no matter where you line him up. He is basically an extra wide receiver. Donald Jones from Buffalo is comparable to Emmanuel Sanders not in talent but in the fact that he has underachieved due to either the system or lack of balls thrown his way in addition to lack of top end skill staff that NE has. I think Bill Belichick's coaching/knowledge, Tom Brady's tutelage and accuracy, along with Josh McDaniel's expertise and experience will make Donald better and will enhance his potential and value to it's max (while others don't think so). As for veteran Michael Jenkins, who for some reason or another people feel is a stretch to make the team (like we have a bunch of #1 and #2 receivers on the roster to push him out?) which I feel is stupid, provides some veteran presence, which can go a long way these days especially with teams of championship aspirations. He may not be the fastest, but he is not the slowest and he may not be the youngest but he is certainly not the oldest receiver in the NFL. Leadership, knowledge, experience and solid skill set he can provide, not to mention anytime you can take a solid 6'4 veteran WR these days where DB's are increasing in height, you take it. The guy has never ever had good to great quarterbacks throwing him the ball so give him a break. Who knows, he could be more productive and serviceable then you expect, especially down the stretch. And don't sleep on Julian Edelman, who around Thanksgiving last year before he got hurt was emerging as a threat.. the shifty and elusive swiss-army knife that he is. But wait, isn't Shane Vereen a very good receiving running-back who can catch passes better than some NFL receivers? And what about Leon Washington, who is known for wrecking soft coverage defenses underneath with his screens turning them into 15 to 30 yard gains.. He is done it against us, I haven't forgot. Last but not least, lets go back and keep in mind that, people didn't expect much when we brought in David Patten from Cleveland, or even Reche Caldwell from San Diego ... one guy that helped us to 3 Championships and the other guy, an AFC Championship. Both guys were considered only "decent" before NE and did more. Just one more than the other but both very serviceable, so trust Bill, he may see something we don't in those signings because he gets paid to and has been doing it for a very long time. And there is still the NFL draft that has to take place. So as far as I know we are just fine.

 

[supafly]

If Allen is indeed dropping to the second round, I'd support trading the 1st and the 3rd for 2 seconds (if anyone even has 2 seconds).

Wouldn't it be much easier and much more realistic to simply trade out of the first round to acquire an additional second + a fourth?

We're already picking at the very end of the round anyway, and all it would take is one team like ARZ who is looking to get back into the end of the first.

That would give us 2a, 2b, 3, 4, 7a, 7b. That's a fairly decent haul considering that our "needs" are pretty limited to begin with, and Belichick would still have the option of adding a 5th or 6th by moving up from our 7a/7b, or down from our 4th.

This is exactly what I'd try to do.

 

[supafly]

I think they need to hit on at least one rookie at this point, which means they need to draft two.

Exactly. We've seen recent doubling up in the draft at the positions of TE, RB, and DE/LB that have all been successful enough to produce at least one rookie player that can contribute to the cause in his first year on some level.

Another thing to consider is that no one is wishing to use BOTH picks consecutively in the higher rounds (at least not many of us are, although it certainly warrants consideration on some level). We can just as easily choose one high rd WR and then again in the middle or later rounds.

I understand that the odds tend to decrease as each round passes, but those 5-6-7th rounders are not "wasted" picks, nor are UDFA's.

The draft should allow the team to address the needs of WR, DL, OL, and CB, with the option to still use BPA or "bonus" picks that may/may not pan out. We really don't have a ton of needs to begin with as it is, and that is due to proper planning ahead of time.

 

[supafly]

You can argue every receiver they have is a third or fourth option. I think the Patriots are in the position they must draft one with the first two picks, and hope he really can play.

Because their receiving core is a joke. Teams are going to packing the middle more than ever.

I wouldn't be surprise if Brady's passer rating dips in the 80's. They shouldn't have been in this position, but now they are.

Talk about a major overeaction...

Why would teams be able to "clog the middle more than ever" when the idea is to upgrade on size, depth, and potentially even talent for the grouping overall?

Amendola has more ability than Welker did in his range, it's the ability to read/react and get on the same page with Brady that many of us are worried about. Luckily he already has experience both in our system and in taking over for Welker as he did at Texas Tech. The team also retained Edelman as a backup in case injury concerns are your worry. Either way, there is less tendency to clog the middle as much as there was with Welker in my opinion.

They've also improved instantly on the WR4 that was Deion Branch and his lack of speed, size and advanced age. Branch caught no more than 16 balls last season. Why would you think that adding 2 players who are 6'1 and 6'4 would allow defenses to clog the middle more? The WR4 position has been improved with size, speed, and age. Hopefully we can get one of those players on the same kind of level that Branch had with Brady, as that was his main asset here.

Last season we lacked a deeper, younger, speedier downfield threat--and THAT was one of the main reasons why teams were able to clog the field more (although there obviously aren't many who can do it effectively based on our 36 pts per game average). This will obviously change if/when a higher round draft pick is added, and there's even the possibility that 2 will be chosen.

Our top 3 receiving targets will basically stay the same, and the team will continue to show its dedication to the running game. On top of that we have better TE depth than last year too, and a much more capable defense. I'm not seeing the "sky is falling" outlook that you are.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Amendola has more ability than Welker did in his range, it's the ability to read/react and get on the same page with Brady that many of us are worried about. Luckily he already has experience both in our system and in taking over for Welker as he did at Texas Tech. The team also retained Edelman as a backup in case injury concerns are your worry. Either way, there is less tendency to clog the middle as much as there was with Welker in my opinion...

A troll post, from you?

 

[supafly]

It just cracks me up to hear all of the negative outlooks on the WR group, when 2/4 WRs last year had reception totals of 21 (Edelman) and 16 (Branch). The WR position has basically sucked in the past couple of yrs, with the exception of one player and another who was "good enough."

On top of that everyone complained about the lack of a younger, speedier, taller receiver who can be a "playmaker" in our offense, yet now we have the option to take one or more of those players for a cheap rookie deal, and somehow the outlook is worse that the joke corps of WR's we've had in the past 2 seasons which produced SB and AFCCG appearances?

This is all about Brandon Llyod then? The guy who isn't attracting hardly any attention at all in free agency? The guy who couldn't beat man coverage for crap last year and had a 50% catch rate? The guy who looked slow, limited, and everyone complained "went down immediately" after catching the ball?

And no one honestly thinks that Belichick is going to do anything about trying to improve upon the position as a whole because they're too worried about whining over the loss of Llyod or swapping of Welker?

 

[Deus Irae]

It just cracks me up to hear all of the negative outlooks on the WR group, when 2/4 WRs last year had reception totals of 21 (Edelman) and 16 (Branch). The WR position has basically sucked in the past couple of yrs, with the exception of one player and another who was "good enough."

Why? The team was supposed to be flush with cash. Did it fix the WR problem?

No, it made it worse, downgrading from both Welker and Lloyd. They screwed up, big time.

 

[supafly]

A troll post, from you?

In what manner, Deus? I wouldn't call it anything to do with "trolling," maybe more of a difference in opinions?

I spoke of the worries that we all have in Amendola getting on the same page with Brady in his ability to read/react to the defensive alignments with anywhere near the same success as Welker--which was Welker's greatest asset in my opinion, along with being very tough.

I also spoke of the potential for Amendola to do better things than Welker, which is a very popular thought shared by many. He does have experience in this system, and he did follow in Welker's footsteps before (and actually improved upon their senior year stats in everything but TD's, which were 9 to 7 in favor of Welker).

Amendola has the potential to drop less balls, has more downfield range, is younger, faster, taller, etc...

I tried to show a fair assessment of his pros and his cons, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility to think that Amendola can improve in some aspects, even if his production is down from Welker's and spread throughout other avenues.

 

[supafly]

Why? The team was supposed to be flush with cash. Did it fix the WR problem?

No, it made it worse, downgrading from both Welker and Lloyd. They screwed up, big time.

I don't think any of us really thought Belichick would suddenly go outside of his comfort zone in overpaying at the position of WR. I know I didn't.

I think we reasonably expected a guy in the 6-7 million range, and that didn't happen yet, so I would agree with your concerns there to this point, but it's still early.

I think there's a good possibility of seeing an improvement in the kind of receiver who can demand more attn and act as a downfield threat, since that's one of our biggest weaknesses lately. We finally have the chance to take a reasonably costing young, fast WR--maybe one of the top 2-3 WR's in the entire draft. How can that necessarily be worse than last year?

On top of that, we also have the potential to improve on the WR3, WR4 positions--which showed 21 catches from Edelman and 16 from Branch.

The biggest (and really "only") challenge that remains is attempting to get a player to take over the role that Brandon Llyod played last year, which was often viewed as "good enough" but still lacking in some areas. Hell, there's even a chance Llyod himself can be back here playing that role again, which would be fine too considering that we'd have some other weapons to build around him.

I think the WR picture will be much clearer in a couple of weeks, after any selections and/or trades etc are made. I'm sure they have a plan in place.

I'm often worried and concerned, but I don't personally feel that way just yet about the receiving group at this point in April. On top of that, the dedication to the running game and better depth at TE will also factor into the offense's continuation, at least in my opinion. I'm just glad they were able to retain all of Talib, Vollmer, and the slot receiver--which were the big 3 concerns that we all had going into free agency. It sucks that Welker didn't stay, but it obviously appears they just did not want him...or else they'd have come up a measly 1 million dollars to counter DEN's offer of 2/12. By coming up to 2/11 with more guaranteed money in year one, I think we'd still have him. That wasn't the plan however.

 

[primetime]

Lloyd was a pretty bad player. He was the functional equivalent of a chucker in the NBA - a player whose production reflects volume, not efficiency. He dropped balls regularly, didn't get open regularly, wasn't a downfield threat at all, and his inability to run after the catch is the stuff of legend. No teams rushed to sign the guy after the Patriots let him go.

 

[supafly]

I suppose if I showed a manner of overconfidence that would definitely be wrong of me, and that wasn't necessarily the intention. I try to stay away from such blanketing statements, so I'll keep that in mind for the future.

I just think that we should fairly try to see the potential or ceiling of improvement on the weaknesses that we showed last year, while mouring the loss of Welker and continuing to be worried and frustrated.

For the record I honestly think that Amendola (or Amendola/Edelman if that's the way it shakes out) can produce about 3/4 of Welker's production. I'm not meaning to be one of those posters who is necessarily claiming that the move will equate to more production, just that Amendola still has the ability to improve in some areas over Welker's skillset. Of course it remains to be seen whether or not those improvements or at least equal ground in some areas can outweigh the concerns we all have regarding the replacement of Welker's awesome skills too...which in my opinion were rapport with Brady + toughness.

Much like the CB grouping when losing Talib was a possibility, I'm not as concerned with one player as I am with the entire positional grouping as a whole, which I honestly think can be improved upon or at least be on equal ground. I'm just pointing out that 2 of our 4 WR's last year had really lousy production, and when you couple that with the obvious lack of any downfield threat, it tends to paint a truer and more accurate portrayal of some of our stuggles at the position in the past couple/few seasons, even though the offense itself was virtually unstoppable most of the time.

 

[Deus Irae]

In what manner, Deus? I wouldn't call it anything to do with "trolling," maybe more of a difference in opinions?

I spoke of the worries that we all have in Amendola getting on the same page with Brady in his ability to read/react to the defensive alignments with anywhere near the same success as Welker--which was Welker's greatest asset in my opinion, along with being very tough.

I also spoke of the potential for Amendola to do better things than Welker, which is a very popular thought shared by many. He does have experience in this system, and he did follow in Welker's footsteps before (and actually improved upon their senior year stats in everything but TD's, which were 9 to 7 in favor of Welker).

Amendola has the potential to drop less balls, has more downfield range, is younger, faster, taller, etc...

I tried to show a fair assessment of his pros and his cons, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility to think that Amendola can improve in some aspects, even if his production is down from Welker's and spread throughout other avenues.

People thinking that Amendola is going to be Welker #2 are hoping against all of NFL history. Will they be right?

It's possible, but highly unlikely, even if Amendola somehow manages to stay on the field, which is also possible but highly unlikely.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Much like the CB grouping when losing Talib was a possibility, I'm not as concerned with one player as I am with the entire positional grouping as a whole, which I honestly think can be improved upon or at least be on equal ground. I'm just pointing out that 2 of our 4 WR's last year had really lousy production, and when you couple that with the obvious lack of any downfield threat, it tends to paint a truer and more accurate portrayal of some of our stuggles at the position in the past couple/few seasons, even though the offense itself was virtually unstoppable most of the time.

The entire positional grouping consists of one starter and a bunch of players who can't stay healthy, and who don't do much even when they are healthy.