Who's Right Regarding Our Corners?

[Ring 6]

History shows otherwise.

That statement right there epitomizes why no one can take you seriously.

 

[Ring 6]

Devin McCourty was not moved back to corner in the second half of the AFC Championship Game against the Baltimore Ravens.

But he did in the other games Talib missed late in the season.

 

[mgteich]

McCourty is one of the best backup corners in the nil. Yes, if Talib or Dennard is out for a game, the likely defensive game plan is for McCourty to move to corner.

CB: Talib, Dennard, Arrington, Cole
S: Gregory, Wilson, Wilson, Ebner

starter wherever most needed; McCourty
may make the team, or not: Dowling

As you have said often, a strong option for 2013 and beyond is to draft a safety. The alternative is to draft a corner. We need one for the future.

But he did in the other games Talib missed late in the season.

 

[RayClay]

McCourty is one of the best backup corners in the nil. Yes, if Talib or Dennard is out for a game, the likely defensive game plan is for McCourty to move to corner.

If that's the case, we need more corners. I think McCourty is likely to be a very important player at safety if we leave him there. Playing musical chairs with an important starter every time there's a single injury doesn't seem like a good plan to me.

 

[Leemo]

only an idiot would think we don't need another CB who can play outside.

BB himself knows we do else he wouldn't have shown interest in Winfield.

Rest assured we draft a CB, nailed on. Wouldn't suprise me if it was with the first pick that we use

 

[patriot lifer]

only an idiot would think we don't need another CB who can play outside.

BB himself knows we do else he wouldn't have shown interest in Winfield.

Rest assured we draft a CB, nailed on. Wouldn't suprise me if it was with the first pick that we use

I can understand many wanting more coverage guys given our coverage/injury woes in recent years. But how many CB's are we going to carry on the 53?

Talib, Dennard, and Arrington are virtual locks as our top 3. Whether or not fans like Arrington, he signed a deal that makes him a fixture in the defensive backfield. Beyond the top 3 cornerbacks, the #4 player is a predominantly ST player. Cole actually fits the role fairly well. He plays very well on ST and is average in coverage in the slot. If he's lined up against Boldin, then obviously he's going to struggle. Few #4 CB's in the NFL will ever match up well against a top-flight receiver. The primary purpose of a #4 CB is ST.

We could draft a CB, but we could also draft a RB, OL, DL, LB, S...well, you get the picture.

Do people not like Dennard and Talib that much? We drafted a first round CB in 2010...now he's playing safety. Unfortunately, a first rounder is no silver bullet. BB elected to play a seventh rounder and a player we traded for over our most recent first-round CB.


Let's bring back Darius Butler! Problem solved.

 

[supafly]

only an idiot would think we don't need another CB who can play outside.

BB himself knows we do else he wouldn't have shown interest in Winfield.

Rest assured we draft a CB, nailed on. Wouldn't suprise me if it was with the first pick that we use

No one would be pissed off if we chose another CB. The main question is exactly where to prioritize that draft selection, especially if you think it's possible to trade out of the first round.

We have other needs, both current/future that may have to come first.

The fact that Belichick showed interest in Winfield only backs my point up even more that there are other ways to add a CB besides spending another 1st or 2nd round pick.

 

[supafly]

Playing musical chairs with an important starter every time there's a single injury doesn't seem like a good plan to me.

The only way McCourty immediately moves to CB "every time there's a single injury" is if all of the following happen:

1. Dowling doesn't make the team at all (I'd have to say there's at least a 50/50 chance that he does, if not slightly better at 60/40)

2. Belichick sees Arrington only as a slot CB and paid him a ridiculous salary to do so (I'm guessing that money was for something other than 'just' playing the slot--as much as we don't agree with or like that propostion, we also have to assess how Belichick could use scheme and improved safety play to help him if the need arises for a game or two)

3. There's absolutely no addition in free agency, camp/roster cuts, UDFA's, or any kind of draft pick whatsoever

I'd have to say the chances of all of those things happening are relatively small.

 

[RayClay]

The only way McCourty immediately moves to CB "every time there's a single injury" is if all of the following happen:

1. Dowling doesn't make the team at all (I'd have to say there's at least a 50/50 chance that he does, if not slightly better at 60/40)

2. Belichick sees Arrington only as a slot CB and paid him a ridiculous salary to do so (I'm guessing that money was for something other than 'just' playing the slot--as much as we don't agree with or like that propostion, we also have to assess how Belichick could use scheme and improved safety play to help him if the need arises for a game or two)

3. There's absolutely no addition in free agency, camp/roster cuts, UDFA's, or any kind of draft pick whatsoever

I'd have to say the chances of all of those things happening are relatively small.

I agree. Good to have as an emergency corner, but I'd like one more cb with potential and i agree, it's fine to have Arrington as a backup corner. People forget he was a special teamer who put up 16 game numbers in a half season, then rose to the occasion when the highly touted pick choked when the job was handed to him and did his best at starter, even grabbing a bunch of picks.

Of course he wasn't going to be all pro, but he is better than most backups teams have. People seem to be under the delusion that all pros make great backups, they don't. Cornerbacks are expensive and emotionally second to WRs in getting an attitude. I'd like one more young guy to learn and backup, but Arrington is a great, high effort role player.

 

[supafly]

I agree. Good to have as an emergency corner, but I'd like one more cb with potential and i agree, it's fine to have Arrington as a backup corner. People forget he was a special teamer who put up 16 game numbers in a half season, then rose to the occasion when the highly touted pick choked when the job was handed to him and did his best at starter, even grabbing a bunch of picks.

Of course he wasn't going to be all pro, but he is better than most backups teams have. People seem to be under the delusion that all pros make great backups, they don't. Cornerbacks are expensive and emotionally second to WRs in getting an attitude. I'd like one more young guy to learn and backup, but Arrington is a great, high effort role player.

I think many are worried about seeing Arrington outside for any length of time, myself included--even though I definitely agree with a lot of what you say. No one is going to have all-pros at their backup positions, and that's what people need to keep in mind. In saying that, I am not stating that I disagree with bringing in another CB, but I am saying that it certainly isn't as clear cut as many are assuming that CB will be taken with one of our first couple of picks.

I also think that Belichick obviously feels differently than the fanbase as far as Arrington's potential to start, due to the hefty contract that was given. That was a contract that pays in between outside starter and slot CB money, especially in this current market where it's a lot closer to outside starter.

To me that loudly screams that Belichick definitely considers him a potential starter opposite Talib/Dennard should he need to take over for a game or two. If it were a longer, more permanent scenario, I'd assume that McCourty may get the call to either go back full-time or at least switch around in subs, which he's proven to be very effective at in my opinion.

Either way, I'm sure we'll see another corner added. It's just a question of how/where/when.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Yep. Especially against the Ravens in the playoffs! Simply fcuking amazing!

Uhmm cb is a need (isn't it every year?) in the draft...

When the Defense was healthy they completely destroyed a very good Texans team. What do you expect would happen if 4 of the 11 defensive starters couldn't play, while a couple of others were walking wounded in thre AFCCG.

In the past few years the pass rush has stated to reliably emerge, and the secondary with added talent does not seem to be as weak. Now we have added an interior pass rush, and tightened the run defense as well. Its time to put the finishing touches to the secondary. Marquis Cole should never see the field as a defensive player, other than ST play.

 

[supafly]

Marquis Cole should never see the field as a defensive player, other than ST play.

I agree with your overall assessment of the team, etc.

The one problem I see with your statement is that there's no way we'll keep more than 10 DB's in total, with 5 CB's and 5 safeties (Ebner being the 5th).

That means that we're already locked into at least 4 CB's (Talib, Dennard, Arrington, and Cole for ST). The wildcard is who would make it between Dowling and his competition.

A cheap vet like Winfield or company would have made a fine addition for a reasonable price. I don't believe that Belichick felt that 3m was a reasonable price however, so that was likely the dealbreaker. We may be able to add another vet like Sheldon Brown for the kind of money that Belichick is looking to spend. S.Brown had a very nice year last season for CLE, despite being a bit long in the tooth.

Another option could be some new youth, but there's certainly a strong argument that it may be a wasted resource/pick if we chose to spend that on one of the first couple of choices, and that it could certainly wait until next year unless Belichick decided to use a mid-rounder instead. We've seen some gems chosen in the mid to later rounds before, so it isn't quite the "wasted" choice that many here believe.

Asante Samuel (4th) and Alfonzo Dennard (7th) are two that come to mind, along with Randall Gay (UDFA) who all contributed nicely.

 

[supafly]

^^^

Of course the other side of the coin is that we can draft a high pick at CB and use this year for a developmental-type learning role, since he likely wouldn't see much time.

It will all depend on what Belichick feels are the priorities and proper use of our draft picks, but in all honesty a 1st/2nd pick could likely be held off until next season, unless you'd be fine with him not seeing the field too much.

It could also potentially be used as a bargaining chip in next yr's Talib negotiations, if you believe in such things. Having a high round pick as his replacement may be a good thing when it comes to negotiating his deal.

 

[cstjohn17]

Isn't it simple? CB is like most units, the starters are in place but adding a quality 1st rounder could move the unit from good to very good...

Random thought about CB, impossible to even consider but imagine if Ras A Dowling can actually stay on the field? Impossible I know but imagine if the Patriots actually have too many CBs? Kind of like having too much pitching.

 

[supafly]

Isn't it simple? CB is like most units, the starters are in place but adding a quality 1st rounder could move the unit from good to very good...

Where would this "quality 1st rounder" play or see the field considering that we have at least 4 solid starters at the moment for 2 positions and the wildcard that is Ras-I-Dowling which would make it 5 starters? I don't think it's quite as simple as you may be making it out to be.

Belichick paid Arrington handsomely at 4 million AAV when all of the rest of the league's top CB's were bringing in 5 million AAV (and even less in some cases). That tells me that he sees him not only as a slot guy, but a player who will take over reps outside--whether we like it or not, so we have to include him too.

Impossible I know but imagine if the Patriots actually have too many CBs? Kind of like having too much pitching.

I suppose if you believe that we're all set at the positions of WR and DL for now and the immediate future AND you're good with not trading down to acquire an additional 2nd and 4th rounder, then this would be the answer for you, but keep in mind that we have pretty much no one at either position for the future at the moment.

The following DL players are all due to hit FA at the end of the season: Ninkovich, Love, Deaderick, Cunningham, and Pryor.

The 2 that wouldn't be due for another year are Wilfork and Kelly.

Either way you see it, we need some youth for the future--and the position itself already needed an upgrade in talent and the ability to rush the passer before even taking this into account as it is.

We all know the lack of talent and depth at WR too, where we'd like to add a speedster who has some physical traits and size. The 1st/2nd round of the NFL draft is pretty much the only place you're going to be able to get that kind of guy for a reasonable price...so that is the debate to adding yet another high pick CB, the specific prioritization of the needs. It's also why I'd be just fine with adding someone in the middle rounds and/or a vet for this year, and waiting until next year to address CB with another 1st/2nd round pick.

We'll have to see what Bill Belichick thinks though, as he's the only one who's opinion counts

 

[cstjohn17]

Where would this "quality 1st rounder" play or see the field considering that we have at least 4 solid starters at the moment for 2 positions and the wildcard that is Ras-I-Dowling which would make it 5 starters? I don't think it's quite as simple as you may be making it out to be.

These things usually work themselves out, no has ever said 'Damn we have too much depth and talent at this unit'. Even if a drafted CB didn't play much in year 1 Talib is on a one year deal. Think of a Vince Wilfork scenario where he was mentored for a year and then took over.

I ws trying to be a little tongue in cheek, IMO CB is just like many other positions including the ones you mention (WR, DE, CB, RB, DT, S, etc.), all of these units would be ok if the season started now but could be improved or moved from good to great with a quality draftee.

But as you said, BB makes the calls, the rest of us mortals sit and wait. The time is almost here, stay tuned...

 

[tonyto3690]

I can understand many wanting more coverage guys given our coverage/injury woes in recent years. But how many CB's are we going to carry on the 53?

Talib, Dennard, and Arrington are virtual locks as our top 3. Whether or not fans like Arrington, he signed a deal that makes him a fixture in the defensive backfield. Beyond the top 3 cornerbacks, the #4 player is a predominantly ST player. Cole actually fits the role fairly well. He plays very well on ST and is average in coverage in the slot. If he's lined up against Boldin, then obviously he's going to struggle. Few #4 CB's in the NFL will ever match up well against a top-flight receiver. The primary purpose of a #4 CB is ST.

We could draft a CB, but we could also draft a RB, OL, DL, LB, S...well, you get the picture.

Do people not like Dennard and Talib that much? We drafted a first round CB in 2010...now he's playing safety. Unfortunately, a first rounder is no silver bullet. BB elected to play a seventh rounder and a player we traded for over our most recent first-round CB.


Let's bring back Darius Butler! Problem solved.

You are completely wrong.

It has nothing to do with not liking Talib, Arrington or Dennard. All three ranged from solid to good and Arrington was great in the slot.

The problem is Dennard is only slightly better than an unknown commodity and Talib has shown nothing but it's impossible for him to stay healthy and his legs could explode at any moment.

On top of that, neither Dennard nor Talib last year showed anything along the lines of elite play, so it's not like either are so good it's a waste of effort to try to replace one.

And furthermore, on top of that, Talib has a career of being a headcase and a one year deal. Assuming he'll be here after this season is foolish.

McCourty is playing safety because he's equally good at safety as cornerback and the others options at safety were so hilariously bad that he had to switch. If we had two good safeties, McCourty never would have switched.

 

[Brady6]

But he did in the other games Talib missed late in the season.

I think it is bad for McCourty development as a safety to be switching back to CB over and over again.

 

[State]

Talib is probably gone after this year.

Arrington is a nickel corner--not a long-term starter at CB.

McCourty needs to stay at safety where his range and ball-hawking skills make him more effective than at CB.

Dowling? Well, I'm routing (or is it rooting) for the young man. I'm drooling at the prospect at him starting opposite Talib. All of the sudden we go from smurfs to studs.

But I follow the Talmad and don't rely on miracles. At this point making it through just a season would almost be in that category. So likely we last see him departing on a pair of crutches, never to be seen again in a Patriots uniform. What a wasted first round pick! (That's what many consider the first pick in the second to be.)

So we need a starting CB from the draft. Jamar Taylor comes to mind in the first. (Or early second if we trade down.)

It

 

[supafly]

I think it is bad for McCourty development as a safety to be switching back to CB over and over again.

I would agree with you that it could be bad for his development IF he were simply switching back and forth playing safety one game, then CB the other. Then safety again for a few games...then back to CB.

However, he's shown to be very effective by switching back and forth in different schemes and subpackages during the same game, much like Charles Woodson and others have done in the past. The job he did in SB46 was amazing, and he definitely helped to hide a weakened secondary that included the likes of James Ihedigbo, Antwaan Molden, and Sterling Moore in the biggest game of the season.

If Belichick wants to take advantage of that kind of versatility if/when we get into an injury situation or we match up better scheme-wise, then all the better. McCourty has proven to be a leader in that secondary, and has shown some nice versatility.

I think we all want him full-time at safety, no doubt; but it's pretty fair to also consider him a potential starter should the need arise at CB too.