Cap Page Help Requested

[Miguel]

I didn't do a full breakdown for you, sorry, but I'm swamped right now. I did notice, however, that you and Jason differ on the following players from the 51 (your numbers first):

Amendola (3,573,750 v. 3,543,750)
Bequette (619,950 v. 614,950)

Fixed a typing mistake of mine

Gronk (2,700,000 v. 2,750,000)

I will be working with Jason to reconcile our differences.

McCourty (1,845,800 v. 1,845,000)

Fixed a typing mistake of mine

McDonald (656,668 v. 630,000)

Had updated the underlying workbook but not the webpage.

Ballard (555,000 v. 630,000)

Had updated the underlying workbook but not the webpage.

Koutouvides (580,000 v. 620,000)
Cole (570,000 v. 620,000)

Just emailed Jason the link that supports my numbers.

Thanks so much.

 

[NgataTroublemaker]

I looked at your spreadsheet and my first thought is that your adjusted cap is high.

It looks to me like the Adjusted Cap isn't the issue because the difference ($1.6M) is showing up in the amount of used cap. The NFLPA shows you guys using $122,452,407. Miguel's Excel spreadsheet shows $120,634,644. (This is before his very minor corrections made this morning). The difference in used cap is (was) $1,607,763.

I am pretty good with the cap, but I don't know enough about the few tricky Patriots contracts to have any chance of helping here. I will say that the NFLPA site is not always accurate. It had the Ravens situation incorrect regarding Pollard's release for about 1 week. The strange thing is that it was correct initially, then changed to incorrect for a week, then changed back to correct a couple days ago. The NFLPA now lines up dollar for dollar with our Ravens' fan Cap Sheet, but it hasn't always.

Then again, if the discrepancy has lasted two weeks, maybe the error is on yours and Miguel's side. Miguel's spreadsheet looks good to me in terms of the math and the obvious contracts. I wonder if the NFLPA somehow recently added Waters base salary back in but not the incentives? The Waters situation is one that still puzzles me in terms of the cap. And I wouldn't put it past the NFLPA site to get it wrong, even if temporarily.

 

[belichick010405]

Hi Miguel - I have been a long time fan of your website and the work that you and the others have been contributing to Patscap.com. The Julian Edelman numbers have come in per PFT:

Pats get Julian Edelman for bargain price | ProFootballTalk

 

[Fencer]

I'm pretty sure that those numbers are correct

Contract catch-up: Jenkins, Cole & Niko - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

OK, but how does the rule work? It seems like they're get a vet cap charge discount that other guys aren't. Why? Length of time in the league?

If you can't answer that fluently for the new CBA, there's a chance you got your numbers wrong for some minimum salary vets or other.

 

[NgataTroublemaker]

OK, but how does the rule work? It seems like they're get a vet cap charge discount that other guys aren't. Why? Length of time in the league?

If you can't answer that fluently for the new CBA, there's a chance you got your numbers wrong for some minimum salary vets or other.

I can try to answer semi-fluently.

The rule was put in place to help aging veterans from being avoided due to the salary cap implications of their higher veteran minimum salaries. It applies to the salary cap treatment of players that sign "Qualifying contracts."

Article 27 of the 2011 CBA addresses this issue (page 149 of the CBA, or page 164 of the linked .pdf)

CBA .pdf link

Sections 1-4 of Article 27 define the players eligible for Qualfying contracts and the contract requirements needed to 'Qualify.' Need to be at least 4 year veteran, sign 1-year deal, limits on salary and bonus, etc.

Section 5 indicates the Salary Cap treatment we are discussing here with the following opening statement: "Notwithstanding any other provision of this Agreement, the Salary Cap count for a Qualifying Contract shall be the same as the minimum salary for a player with two Credited Seasons...."


A very generalized summary of the "rule" is that for 4+ year veterans, you can sign them to 1-year deals, pay them their high Veteran Minimum Salary (dependent on their Veteran level) and a small, limited bonus ($65,000 maximum for 2013, goes up by $15,000 over time on set schedule), and their base salary will be treated in terms of the Salary Cap as that of the Veteran Minimum of a 2-year veteran (which is $555,000 for 2013).

So from Miguel's link: All three players listed have Cap numbers that are $555,000 plus their small bonuses.

 

[Fencer]

I can try to answer semi-fluently.

The rule was put in place to help aging veterans from being avoided due to the salary cap implications of their higher veteran minimum salaries. It applies to the salary cap treatment of players that sign "Qualifying contracts."

Article 27 of the 2011 CBA addresses this issue (page 149 of the CBA, or page 164 of the linked .pdf)

CBA .pdf link

Sections 1-4 of Article 27 define the players eligible for Qualfying contracts and the contract requirements needed to 'Qualify.' Need to be at least 4 year veteran, sign 1-year deal, limits on salary and bonus, etc.

Section 5 indicates the Salary Cap treatment we are discussing here with the following opening statement: "Notwithstanding any other provision of this Agreement, the Salary Cap count for a Qualifying Contract shall be the same as the minimum salary for a player with two Credited Seasons...."


A very generalized summary of the "rule" is that for 4+ year veterans, you can sign them to 1-year deals, pay them their high Veteran Minimum Salary (dependent on their Veteran level) and a small, limited bonus ($65,000 maximum for 2013, goes up by $15,000 over time on set schedule), and their base salary will be treated in terms of the Salary Cap as that of the Veteran Minimum of a 2-year veteran (which is $555,000 for 2013).

So from Miguel's link: All three players listed have Cap numbers that are $555,000 plus their small bonuses.

Thanks. That explains the peak. 3rd-year vets at minimum salary count for more than either 2nd- or 4th-year ones.

I thought the provision might not kick in until guys were more seasoned than that, but between the NFL and the NBA and a couple of CBAs each, my memory on fine details isn't trustworthy.

 

[shmessy]

OMIGOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Miguel is asking us for help on the cap???????????????

Who the HELL is flying the plane?????????????????????????????????

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

OMIGOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Miguel is asking us for help on the cap???????????????

Who the HELL is flying the plane?????????????????????????????????

Next, Patsfans posters will be telling Belichick how to draft and sign FAs

 

[Frezo]

Next, Patsfans posters will be telling Belichick how to draft and sign FAs

We can expect him to post looking for help any day now.

 

[NgataTroublemaker]

Miguel, FYI, the NFLPA site definitely treats the $504,000 workout bonus as a downward adjustment to the Adjusted Cap total (not an addition to the Team Cap number). I know this from looking at the Ravens cap sheet and their data (which currently matches).

So for the sake of trying to compare, and match, and sniff out any discrepancies with that site's numbers, I would treat the $504,000 the same way they do vs. adding it to the Team Cap number.

Right now I show the difference between your Cap Room numbers and the NFLPA numbers as $1,762,986.

Your current Cap Room is $8,252,923 (your Adjusted Cap Number of $129,656,344 minus your Team Cap Number of $121,403,421). Their current Cap Room is $6,489,937 (the $6,699,937 currently shown minus the $210,000 in extra Cap Space Edelman takes up over the current 51st player...NFLPA has not yet updated for Edelman despite their claims to update 3 times per day). Difference between the two is $1,762,986.

But also, once you remove the $504,000 Workout Bonus from your Team Cap number (and subtract it from your Adjusted Cap number), then the NFLPA website Team Cap number is exactly $1,762,986 more than your Team Cap number. Adjusting theirs upwards by $210,000 for Edelman we get $122,662,407. Adjusting yours downwards by $504,000 for the Workout Bonus we get $120,899,421. Difference between the two is $1,762,986.

This tells us that none of the difference lies in the Adjusted Cap number. And again, from looking and comparing the NFLPA site and the Ravens' numbers, 2012 Incentives Adjustments are made to the Adjusted Cap number, which you two agree on.

So the difference we are seeing definitely has to do with the Team Cap numbers for 2013. It could be a difference in treatment of a 2013 Incentive (LTBE or not, etc), but won't be a 2012 Incentives Adjustment. FYI

Also, as I said before, it really could be the NFLPA's error. The site is not gospel, and it can be very slow to update stuff.

 

[Risen]

Does Brian Waters still count against our cap?

 

[Miguel]

I didn't do a full breakdown for you, sorry, but I'm swamped right now. I did notice, however, that you and Jason differ on the following players from the 51 (your numbers first):

Gronk (2,700,000 v. 2,750,000)

In 2012 the Patriots fully guaranteed Gronk's 2014 workout bonus money prorating it $50,000 fro the years 2012 through 2016. Will soon be updating my numbers.

 

[Miguel]

Does Brian Waters still count against our cap?

He does not show up in their salary database.

 

[Miguel]

Think that I found a mistake of mine. Jerod Mayo has a $300,000 Pro Bowl incentive. Was not including it in his numbers. Now I am. I am now off by $1.2 million.