Too much scheme...

[voluntarysaftey]

I saw the Boldin "jump ball" catch up close...I mean real close, like 15 yards away...I don't recall it being a jump ball..from field level, Flacco threw it right to Boldin's hands with both DB's looking up helplessly. They were outmatched physically. To me, the only way to stop that play is at the LOS with a pass rush...now THAT is something we all never saw that day, on TV or in person.

But according to most of the people on this board, our front seven is also amazingly great -- we have 4 players who are top 5 at their position.

I think welker is great -- But there's something fundamentally wrong with this team -- record against quality defenses in playoffs is horrible. And I wouldn't be surprised if having a big / strong outside receiver instead of, or ideally in addition to welker would make a huge difference in terms of spreading the defense out -- whereas right now it's able to focus on the short middle of the field as that's where our 4 biggest weapons -- welker, hernandez, gronk, ridley operate

 

[cstjohn17]

How on earth did you reach this conclusion? It makes no sense whatsoever. Would you rather that the Patriots NOT scheme, be stupid and get 0 yards? It's all about creating mismatches, which the "scheme" and pre-snap/post-snap reads are all about. They were the No. 1 offense in the league because of this. They blew out the Texans in the playoffs and got more than 400 yards against Baltimore, stumbling in the red zone. They got beat by a really good team, not by "too much scheme."

I was not suggesting, no scheme. Just some simplification and less focus on a perfectly designed and executed play for 4 yards. They try so hard to be perfect when it seems like they might be better served saying run a post, or 15 yard in cut. Also being able to run for a 1st down on 3rd and 2 would help.

 

[chicowalker]

How many WRs have put up more receiving yards in the last 2 years than Wes Welker? HOw many WRs in history EVER put up consecutive years with more yards than Wes Welker has the last 2? Its less than 20.
How many TEs had more receiving yards or TDs than Gronk in 2011 when he was healthy for a full season.
This offense over the last 3 years has been the best offense in NFL history for any 3 year stretch.
You call that NEGLIGENT?

Yeah, but those were gimmick yards and TDs...

 

[borg]

Verses a team like the Ravens, figuring out where the battle was lost is very easy......The Ravens D Line owned the Patriots and forced NE to become one dimensional.
Here are the facts:

NE executed 27 2nd down plays....12 were runs....for 34 yds total (9 under center hand offs to RBs for 24 yds)
NE executed 15 3rd down plays......4 were runs....for 11 yds total (7 yards from shot gun direct snap gimmick......so....3 runs with Brady under center totaling 4 yds)

Summary: 0n 2nd and 3rd down combined....12 under center hand offs to RBs for 28 yds...2.3 yds/play

Lets remember that Baltimore was in nickel for a majority of their defensive snaps (as proven by individual photos displayed in another thread)


It's as clear as day that not only did NE significantly lose the LOS battle, but they accepted defeat by avoiding direct battle on the LOS. They accepted defeat by not even attempting a single play action pass on 3rd down. What's the point...the Ravens D line owned the LOS, even in nickel...and NE became one dimensional. Baltimore executed the bend don't break defense near flawlessly, clamping down on NE inside the 20. And because NE lacks a field stretching play maker, Baltimore simply allowed Brady to play small ball, and NE eventually kept shooting themselves in the foot....drops and turn overs.
No doubt, Gronk was a missing piece to NE's O puzzle, but the fact remains that even in nickel, the Ravens D Line owned NE's. Can NE go into '13 with the same O line and expect to start winning the LOS battles against the more physical D lines? Look who they lost to, Ariz, Balt, Seat, SF, Balt.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

I don't understand your point.
They aren't trying to trick their way to 4 yards. They are trying to create mismatches and identify the coverage.
An example is why do you put a man in motion? Because if it is man, the defender follows, if it is zone, they shift.
Once the ball is snapped, you aren't 'relying on talent' any more or less if you shifted or motioned before it.

What do you think is gained by mot having a scheme?

The point being made, and its a very legitimate one, is that the Patriots simply don't (they can but refuse) play basic, tough, here it comes and you ain't stoppin' us physical football. They don't have that mindset (too QB-centric) and it's one of the reasons why they don't win these tough gritty games.
When the Patriots offense develops an attitude and doesn't abandon that attitude because the QB wants to (see Ravens game second half), an attitude like it's 3rd and 3 and we're going to run this ball right down your fu*$&@# throat and you're not stopping us they'll start winning these big games against gritty physical teams.
Btw there was a time when this QB's favorite receiver was the open receiver. That has also changed over time. Patriots need to get back to their SB winning routes, i.e. a desire to play tough hardnosed basic football on both sides of the ball.
Scheme THAT, Bill.

 

[Brady2Moss]

But Baltimore was when they started 9-2 then went 1-4 down the stretch?


Please explain to me how it is a gimmick offense


Every year 20 teams do not make the playoffs, 11 lose in the playoffs, and 1 wins the SB. The Patriots have been to 2 of the last 6 SBs, losing each by 1 play. They have been to 4 of the last 7 AFCCGs. They have won their division 9 of the last 10 years. It is a circular argument to say they were worse in their last loss of the season than in their wins.




You were done before you started.



More games than any other team
2 AFC Championships
5 of 6 AFCE titles
5 postseason wins
is your idea of NOTHING?



Great plan!!!! Lets make the offense worse, That will surely add to more points in the season.
I think that you are very consistent now. Smart offense is bad, get stupid. Smart ideas are bad, adopt stupid ones.

Ya Baltimore was? They got healthy after that 1-4 stretch and beat the number 1 seed on the road? Houston barely beat the 6th seeded Bengals LOL at this revisionist history that the Texans were some great team.

Its a gimmick offense because it can't good defenses straight up, saw it against the Cardinals, Seahawks, 49ers (before Justin Smith got hurt), Ravens just can't get any rhythm because no one can get open.

Actually you were done before we started because you just think the offense is A OK! Arguing with an insane person who thinks this isn't beneficial.

It is my idea of nothing with one of the best QBs of all time, I don't care if they lose but half the time they have no even been competitive in their playoff losses

Baltimore 09, Jets 10, Baltimore 12 just not even able to do ANYTHING because they have a finesse offense that crumbles like sand.

 

[borg]

Ya Baltimore was? They got healthy after that 1-4 stretch and beat the number 1 seed on the road? Houston barely beat the 6th seeded Bengals LOL at this revisionist history that the Texans were some great team.

Its a gimmick offense because it can't good defenses straight up, saw it against the Cardinals, Seahawks, 49ers (before Justin Smith got hurt), Ravens just can't get any rhythm because no one can get open.

Actually you were done before we started because you just think the offense is A OK! Arguing with an insane person who thinks this isn't beneficial.

It is my idea of nothing with one of the best QBs of all time, I don't care if they lose but half the time they have no even been competitive in their playoff losses

Baltimore 09, Jets 10, Baltimore 12 just not even able to do ANYTHING because they have a finesse offense that crumbles like sand.

Gimmick proof:

Longest run play on 2nd down....AHern reverse for 6 yds
Longest run play on 3rd down....direct snap to Vereen 7yds

The Baltimore D line owned NE

 

[Brady2Moss]

Gimmick proof:

Longest run play on 2nd down....AHern reverse for 6 yds
Longest run play on 3rd down....direct snap to Vereen 7yds

The Baltimore D line owned NE

But, but, they're just smarter than everyone it isn't a lack of ability that makes those 2 facts true! If they wanted to they could've done it with straight up runs!

 

[Deus Irae]

Since the end of the season, there have been a lot of really bad threads. Some of them have been brutal and an embarrassment to this site. However, as bad as they've been, not one of them, with the possible exception of one the mods got rid of before I saw it, was as ill-conceived as this one.

 

[Tunescribe]

I was not suggesting, no scheme. Just some simplification and less focus on a perfectly designed and executed play for 4 yards. They try so hard to be perfect when it seems like they might be better served saying run a post, or 15 yard in cut. Also being able to run for a 1st down on 3rd and 2 would help.

Simple question: if your approach would have been more successful, don't you think the Patriots would've done it? Do you think they're stupid, or you somehow have greater insight?

Since the end of the season, there have been a lot of really bad threads. Some of them have been brutal and an embarrassment to this site. However, as bad as they've been, not one of them, with the possible exception of one the mods got rid of before I saw it, was as ill-conceived as this one.

Amen. I've never seen such blatant displays of utter cluelessness. This stinker belongs in the Practice Squad forum right next to "Is Brady Choking?" The Mods need to stay on top of this nonsense.

 

[IllegalContact]

scheme vs. brute force is a rock-paper-scissors thing.....

scheme is what wins regular seasons.....when everyone kicks it up a notch for the playoffs, brute force becomes a much larger factor.

 

[IllegalContact]

Simple question: if your approach would have been more successful, don't you think the Patriots would've done it? Do you think they're stupid, or you somehow have greater insight?



Amen. I've never seen such blatant displays of utter cluelessness. This stinker belongs in the Practice Squad forum right next to "Is Brady Choking?" The Mods need to stay on top of this nonsense.

why should anyone else be responsible for your complete inability to ignore?

 

[condon84]

Brady's best strength is his ability to find the matchup or hole in the zone where his receivers are open. But when defenders are good enough or the scheme is good enough to cover his receivers, Brady will rarely throw up the jump ball that you see Eli or Flacco completing to his receivers all the time. Besides, Brady is great at throwing the ball close to the ground than up in the air, intentionally or not.

 

[Tunescribe]

why should anyone else be responsible for your complete inability to ignore?

Why don't you stop posting and we'll both find out.

 

[IllegalContact]

Why don't you stop posting and we'll both find out.

why don't you just ignore me? too weak? work on it....works for me

 

[Tunescribe]

why don't you just ignore me? too weak? work on it....works for me

Call it morbid fascination. You are a remarkably consistent study in abject negativity.

 

[Frezo]

Maybe it's not enough schmee.

 

[borg]

scheme vs. brute force is a rock-paper-scissors thing.....

scheme is what wins regular seasons.....when everyone kicks it up a notch for the playoffs, brute force becomes a much larger factor.

Bedard article: "Because of the Patriots’ quick tempo and varying personnel packages, Brooks indicated that the key to beating them is being able to play the pass with five defensive backs, and not having to commit more players to defending the run."

And the Pats averaged 2.3 yds/run on 2nd and 3rd down(non gimmick plays). Once NE gave up the LOS battle, they reverted to their finesse small ball tactics featuring an undersized deep threat and a #2 WR that avoids contact like no other in the league. There was nothing resembling brute force from that Pats offense.

 

[IllegalContact]

Bedard article: "Because of the Patriots’ quick tempo and varying personnel packages, Brooks indicated that the key to beating them is being able to play the pass with five defensive backs, and not having to commit more players to defending the run."

And the Pats averaged 2.3 yds/run on 2nd and 3rd down(non gimmick plays). Once NE gave up the LOS battle, they reverted to their finesse small ball tactics featuring an undersized deep threat and a #2 WR that avoids contact like no other in the league. There was nothing resembling brute force from that Pats offense.

I know....that was my point......the ability to implement brute force is a characteristic the pats need to improve at.

they were running the ball well on 1st down

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Simple question: if your approach would have been more successful, don't you think the Patriots would've done it? Do you think they're stupid, or you somehow have greater insight?



Amen. I've never seen such blatant displays of utter cluelessness. This stinker belongs in the Practice Squad forum right next to "Is Brady Choking?" The Mods need to stay on top of this nonsense.

Simple question: why did the Patriots morph into a Peyton Manning Indy Colts type team when that style of team was DOMINATED by the Pre-Coltlike NE Patriots??
That really is what this discussion is about.