Edelman is a key, believe it or not

[naF staP]

I like the heart, the willingness to do whatever asked to do shown by Edelman. Can't help but cheer for players like that. But he is no Wes Welker! He isn't even 80% of Wes Welker. Edelman can not stay healthy. He can not run routes or get the separation Welker is able to. I will surely be disappointed in the coaching staff if they let Welker go thinking Edelman can replace him.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

Agreed. I think Edelman has that 'it' factor that allows him to make big plays for us. He is a must resign but he will be affordable because of his injury history and such. If Edelman could just stay healthy he could put up big numbers for the Pats offense and ST.

I think if the Pats can resign Edelman at a reasonable price (which I think they should be able to) it'll be one of the smarter re-signings they make this offseason. He has too much upside and this team needs depth at WR and ST. Branch should be on his way out and Welker is a '?'.

 

[Reckedtrek]

"Edelman is a key, believe it or not."

Can't stay on the field, he has (at best) average hands. I'm choosing to not believe that E-man is the key to anything.

He has a ton of heart, gives a 100 percent, but come on!

 

[RIpats88]

to be honest, while I LOVE welker...I feel like we arent winning anything until our defense improves....all of our playoff losses all seem to have the same feel to them.

defense clogs the middle which hinders welker/our tight ends and our defense cant stop them on the other end.....as much as I love welker I would rather spend the 10million$ he is looking for on defensive help

Edelman may not replace welker, but Edelman, another outside wide receiver as well as Gronk/hernandez stepping up we would still have one of the best passing games in the NFL.

Physical outside WR/Gronk/Hernandez/Lloyd to me offers more mismatches on offense..with Edelman coming in as the 3rd WR

 

[Ring 6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

why would he do in year 5 what he couldn't do in the first 4?



Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

It takes time for players to blossom and it appears that Edelman is doing just that. He clearly is important as a backup WR/ST/Utility player. He's a true player and he adds another dimension to the team if he can stay healthy.

He won't replace Welker but he's an important guy to resign. Was Troy Brown any more productive over his first 4 years than Edelman? Not even close. Edleman has been far more productive than Brown based on their first 4 years.

So your argument is that if you can find one guy who didn't produce much in 4 years then did later its proof that anyone who didn't produce for 4 years will in their 5th?




Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[Ring 6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

why would he do in year 5 what he couldn't do in the first 4?



Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

Do you think if he was given the full-time starting WR role, running basically the same routes as Welker (maybe a few more deep patterns as well), and if he stayed healthy (the biggest issue), he would put up good numbers?

I don't think he would put up the same numbers Welker did, but don't you think he'd put up good numbers? Don't you think he'd put up better numbers than he has the first four years of his career?

He has 69 rec, 714 yds, 10.3 ypc, and 4 td in his career. If he was a starting WR taking the vast majority of snaps, how close to those numbers would he put up in 2013, again, assuming he stayed healthy? What's your guess?

He isn't a good WR. You are arguing welker is short is a jag who is handed opportunities.
Welter gets open better than anyone in the league. Edelman can't so that.
Are you seriously arguing that since his 4 years career stats are half of what welker puts up every year, he can replace him?
If Welker goes his role goes with him. And the offense changes.
WE aren't going to make a guy who can't get open, catch well our stay healthy the focal point of the offense.
Welker is a once in a generation player. You don't replace him with a jag
I know Edelman is loved and I understand why but he its a jag not the focal point is one if the best offenses in the history of the sport


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[DocHoliday]

He isn't a good WR. You are arguing welker is short is a jag who is handed opportunities.
Welter gets open better than anyone in the league. Edelman can't so that.
Are you seriously arguing that since his 4 years career stats are half of what welker puts up every year, he can replace him?
If Welker goes his role goes with him. And the offense changes.
WE aren't going to make a guy who can't get open, catch well our stay healthy the focal point of the offense.
Welker is a once in a generation player. You don't replace him with a jag
I know Edelman is loved and I understand why but he its a jag not the focal point is one if the best offenses in the history of the sport


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

I wouldn't say he's a JAG, but he's definitely a gadget player.

 

[Ring 6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

He isn't a good WR. You are arguing welker is short is a jag who is handed opportunities.
Welter gets open better than anyone in the league. Edelman can't so that.
Are you seriously arguing that since his 4 years career stats are half of what welker puts up every year, he can replace him?
If Welker goes his role goes with him. And the offense changes.
WE aren't going to make a guy who can't get open, catch well our stay healthy the focal point of the offense.
Welker is a once in a generation player. You don't replace him with a jag
I know Edelman is loved and I understand why but he its a jag not the focal point is one if the best offenses in the history of the sport


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

I wouldn't say he's a JAG, but he's definitely a gadget player.

Possibly more than jag as a return man but the epitome of jag at WR. It's not really even arguable. There are 100 better WRs in the NFL and probably 20 more in the draft


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[ivanvamp]

He isn't a good WR. You are arguing welker is short is a jag who is handed opportunities.

I'm not arguing anything about Welker. I'm talking about Edelman.

Welter gets open better than anyone in the league. Edelman can't so that.

I've never suggested that Edelman can be what Welker is.

Are you seriously arguing that since his 4 years career stats are half of what welker puts up every year, he can replace him?

No. Are you smoking crack? You asked why we should think that Edelman would suddenly be a productive receiver if he hasn't been through his first four seasons, and my response was simply one of opportunity. If he was a full-time starter and was healthy, yes, he would be productive in this offense. He wouldn't put up Welker's stats, but he'd be productive. IF he stayed healthy, that is.

If Welker goes his role goes with him. And the offense changes.

The offense has changed numerous times in the BB/TB era, and it's always been highly productive. I'm not concerned that suddenly they wouldn't be able to move the ball or score.

WE aren't going to make a guy who can't get open, catch well our stay healthy the focal point of the offense.

Ok.

Welker is a once in a generation player. You don't replace him with a jag

I would agree. I don't necessarily agree that Edelman is a jag, but ok.

I know Edelman is loved and I understand why but he its a jag not the focal point is one if the best offenses in the history of the sport

I don't "love" Edelman. Perhaps you should go back and re-read my posts on this subject. I have suggested that IF the Pats think he can be effective in Welker's role (I never said he would come close to duplicating his actual statistical production), at a fraction of the cost, then maybe they would prefer to go with Edelman and take the $$ saved from not re-signing Welker and go get a different WR or upgrade the defense or whatever.

 

[patfanken]

He isn't a good WR. You are arguing welker is short is a jag who is handed opportunities.
Welter gets open better than anyone in the league. Edelman can't so that.
Are you seriously arguing that since his 4 years career stats are half of what welker puts up every year, he can replace him?
If Welker goes his role goes with him. And the offense changes.
WE aren't going to make a guy who can't get open, catch well our stay healthy the focal point of the offense.
Welker is a once in a generation player. You don't replace him with a jag
I know Edelman is loved and I understand why but he its a jag not the focal point is one if the best offenses in the history of the sport


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

Not a Jag at all, Andy. Have you looked a Welker's first 4 years in the league. Over that time he managed 96 receptions for 1100 yds and 1 TD Not a whole lot more than Edelman's first 4 years with a whole lot more snaps to achieve them. BTW- Welker has been a receiver since HS. Edelman NEVER played the position before he joined the Pats

Tell me Andy, did you think Welker was a "once in a generation" player when the Pats first signed him. IIRC, there was a majority of people here who felt the Pats over paid for him in both cash and draft picks. Obviously the last 6 years have revised those opinions. The point is that YOU don't know what kind of player Edelman might become over the next 6 years, just like you and I didn't know what kind of player Welker would become. Anyone who says he predicted Welker's level of production AND durability is lying.

BTW- I'm not saying that you might not be right in your assessment of Edelman, because no one knows what he will be until he gets a full time opportunity. What I am suggesting is that you shouldn't state your OPINION as if it was a fact. Because the ONLY fact is that we don't know.

 

[RIpats88]

honestly, I think Edelman improved greatly this year as a wide receiver...if not for injuries he was on pace to have his most productive season as a patriot.

is he a #1 or #2 wide receiver? probably not. but he definitely was dynamic enough to fit into that #3 role...he actually was pretty solid as an outside receiver as well as being used on screens etc.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not arguing anything about Welker. I'm talking about Edelman.

Well, you are implying the major difference is Welker had the opportunity.

I've never suggested that Edelman can be what Welker is.

You are calling him a 'key' to the decision, that would mean replacing on some level, would it not?

No. Are you smoking crack? You asked why we should think that Edelman would suddenly be a productive receiver if he hasn't been through his first four seasons, and my response was simply one of opportunity.

First, if he were good enough he would have had that opportunity. You are supporting giving a bigger opportunity to a guy who wasn't good enough, based upon competition to earn one. Some players who have played in front of him we not good.
Secondly, he had that opportunity this year, and ended up with 21 receptoins for 235 yards. We spent most of the season with only 3 WRs. If you eliminate Welker, and bump up Edelman you now have a guy at #2 who caught 21 passes as #3 when there wasn't even a #4 on the roster, after catching 11 passes in the 2 prior years COMBINED. He has had opportunity, that is not a reasonable excuse.

If he was a full-time starter and was healthy, yes, he would be productive in this offense. He wouldn't put up Welker's stats, but he'd be productive. IF he stayed healthy, that is.

Ocho Cinco would have been 'productive' what is the point? He is not a good WR. There are 100 better ones in the league and probably 20 more in the draft.
Out of all of the available WRs if we are losing Welker why in the world would we take a guy who's best argument is maybe he can play if you gift him some playing time?

The offense has changed numerous times in the BB/TB era, and it's always been highly productive. I'm not concerned that suddenly they wouldn't be able to move the ball or score.

Seriously? You are going to tell me that any change we make is fine because we've been through changes and still won some games? We have had possibly the best offense in NFL history over a 3-6 year stretch, and the scheme revolves around Welkers role. Why would you WILLINGLY change that?

Ok.

Well that is Welkers role, so I don't understand how Edelman is 'key' to Welker, because he cannot take his role.

I would agree. I don't necessarily agree that Edelman is a jag, but ok.

Guys who cannot earn a starting job in 4 seasons in the league are essential the definition of jag. Do you think Edelman is one of the top 50 WRs in the NFL? Top 100? See, thats what a jag is.

I don't "love" Edelman. Perhaps you should go back and re-read my posts on this subject. I have suggested that IF the Pats think he can be effective in Welker's role (I never said he would come close to duplicating his actual statistical production),

How can he be effective in the role of the go to guy if he wouldn't even come close to his production? What 'role' do you think Welker has? It is the focal point of the passing game and the most productive receiver on the team. Your description absolutely says Edelman can't fill that role at all.

at a fraction of the cost, then maybe they would prefer to go with Edelman and take the $$ saved from not re-signing Welker and go get a different WR or upgrade the defense or whatever.

This is a totally different discussion.
If you want to discuss whether moving away from Welker because of his cost, sacrificing offense, changing the structure and design of the offense and trying to find a way to become more of a defensive team makes sense, that is a different discussion and it has nothing to do with Edleman.
It would involve replacing Welker with an outside receiver, throwing the ball down the field more, using the backs as receivers, accepting a less dynanmic offense and hoping the defense improves.
Edelman has nothing to do with that.

 

[Ring 6]

Not a Jag at all, Andy.

How do you define jag? Are you really saying there aren't 100 better WRs in the NFL? I understand he belongs in the league. I understand he is a good returnman. I understand he belongs at the end of the roster as a WR. That is jag.

Have you looked a Welker's first 4 years in the league. Over that time he managed 96 receptions for 1100 yds and 1 TD Not a whole lot more than Edelman's first 4 years with a whole lot more snaps to achieve them.

Welker did NOT have more snaps. Welker caught as many passes in his last year in Miami, which was really the first time he played regularly as Edleman has in his career. Edleman has also had Tom Brady his entire career.
Finally, how is one players slower development proof that other players who are not productive for 4 years are good? There are 100 counter examples for every example you could give.

BTW- Welker has been a receiver since HS. Edelman NEVER played the position before he joined the Pats

What does that have to do with anything? Dude, you are just full of excuses. If that is such a big deal, perhaps Edelman will never make it because of the lack of HS experience.

Tell me Andy, did you think Welker was a "once in a generation" player when the Pats first signed him.

What? Welker is what he is. It doesn't really matter what anyone thought of him in 2006, because we have seen what he is. Should we line Vereen up for the HOF based upon Walter Paytons shaky rookie year?

IIRC, there was a majority of people here who felt the Pats over paid for him in both cash and draft picks.

Wait. People on this board's opinion is now your argument? Wow.

Obviously the last 6 years have revised those opinions. The point is that YOU don't know what kind of player Edelman might become over the next 6 years, just like you and I didn't know what kind of player Welker would become. Anyone who says he predicted Welker's level of production AND durability is lying.

So we cannot discuss players any more on your version of Patsfans.com? I'll make sure to note that Patsfanken will no longer be commenting on players because we don't know what will happen in the future.
Here is hoping Dowling never misses a play, Spikes becomes the best coverage LB in the NFL, Chung comes back and is all-pro, and lets resign Crable, Brace, and go get Jemarcus Russel. You cannot disagree with any of those transactions because you really don't know what they will be like the next 6 years.

BTW- I'm not saying that you might not be right in your assessment of Edelman, because no one knows what he will be until he gets a full time opportunity. What I am suggesting is that you shouldn't state your OPINION as if it was a fact. Because the ONLY fact is that we don't know.

Here we go again with this passive aggressive BS. Where do I say my opinion is fact? Am I supposed to preface every opinion I ever state with 'in my opinion' or do you think you can move on from using this lame excuse for an argument?

 

[Ring 6]

honestly, I think Edelman improved greatly this year as a wide receiver...if not for injuries he was on pace to have his most productive season as a patriot.

is he a #1 or #2 wide receiver? probably not. but he definitely was dynamic enough to fit into that #3 role...he actually was pretty solid as an outside receiver as well as being used on screens etc.

Edelmnas receiving yards, by game
7
50
28
7
8
0
58
64
13

Are we really calling that 'productive' in an offense that threw for 300 yards a game?

 

[ivanvamp]

Well, you are implying the major difference is Welker had the opportunity.

Completely untrue. I'm saying that a reason we might think that Edelman would put up better numbers than he has is if he was the full-time starting WR.

You are calling him a 'key' to the decision, that would mean replacing on some level, would it not?

Duh. *You* could "replace" Wes Welker "on some level". At some point the Patriots will have to replace him with somebody on some level. I have never said or hinted or suggested that Edelman would replace Welker's production. You're reading stuff into what I've said WAY too much.

Seriously? You are going to tell me that any change we make is fine because we've been through changes and still won some games? We have had possibly the best offense in NFL history over a 3-6 year stretch, and the scheme revolves around Welkers role. Why would you WILLINGLY change that?

I don't want to move Welker. But as he ages, and as his price tag goes up, the Patriots would be wise to consider alternative scenarios. My entire premise was that *IF* the Patriots think that Edelman can be a productive replacement for Welker, they could use the money saved to improve the team elsewhere, and they just might do something like that.

Well that is Welkers role, so I don't understand how Edelman is 'key' to Welker, because he cannot take his role.

<sigh>

Guys who cannot earn a starting job in 4 seasons in the league are essential the definition of jag. Do you think Edelman is one of the top 50 WRs in the NFL? Top 100? See, thats what a jag is.

You don't have to be a top 50 or 100 WR to not be a jag. He might be a good fit *for the Patriots*, which is all Belichick cares about. Lots of guys appear to be good fits for New England, but poor fits elsewhere.

This is a totally different discussion.
If you want to discuss whether moving away from Welker because of his cost, sacrificing offense, changing the structure and design of the offense and trying to find a way to become more of a defensive team makes sense, that is a different discussion and it has nothing to do with Edleman.
It would involve replacing Welker with an outside receiver, throwing the ball down the field more, using the backs as receivers, accepting a less dynanmic offense and hoping the defense improves.
Edelman has nothing to do with that.

Andy, I don't know, really, what is going on inside your head because you obviously have missed my argument completely. I'm going to quote my entire OP here:

I think Edelman may be the key player in the "What is the best way to approach the offseason for the Pats?" issue. If the Pats believe he can give them 80% of what Welker did (not necessarily in terms of production but in terms of effectiveness...and no, those aren't the same things), then they can do it at a fraction of the cost and use Welker's money to shore up the team elsewhere.

I personally think he has the skill not to duplicate what Welker does, because Wes is a unique player. But I do think Edelman can be a very, very effective replacement, at a much lower cost. The issue for him is whether or not he can stay healthy. One of the great things about Welker is that he's a cyborg, apparently. He takes so many huge hits and just keeps on playing. Edelman spends a lot more time injured than Welker does.

But if they had confidence in Edelman - and really, couldn't that be the reason they gave him so much playing time to start the year, instead of Welker...as a sort of "tryout"? - they could then spend the $10 million on defensive help or to add another big-time receiver.

(bolded for emphasis)

So it's not a "totally different discussion" to talk about the $$ savings going from Welker --> Edelman. It was the entire POINT of my original post!

 

[Ring 6]

Completely untrue. I'm saying that a reason we might think that Edelman would put up better numbers than he has is if he was the full-time starting WR.

Yoiu compared him to Welker here, implying it was just an opportunity thing. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but many use that silly argument.

Do you think if he was given the full-time starting WR role, running basically the same routes as Welker (maybe a few more deep patterns as well), and if he stayed healthy (the biggest issue), he would put up good numbers?

Duh. *You* could "replace" Wes Welker "on some level". At some point the Patriots will have to replace him with somebody on some level. I have never said or hinted or suggested that Edelman would replace Welker's production. You're reading stuff into what I've said WAY too much.

Am I? You are calling Edelman a key to the Welker decision. He really is irrelevant to it.

I don't want to move Welker. But as he ages, and as his price tag goes up, the Patriots would be wise to consider alternative scenarios. My entire premise was that *IF* the Patriots think that Edelman can be a productive replacement for Welker, they could use the money saved to improve the team elsewhere, and they just might do something like that.

And ym entire premise is that its ridiculous to think he can replace Welker. If Welker is gone the Patriots need a front line receiver and whether they keep edelman or not is meaningless to that. If Edleman goes, they need another punt returner and end of the rotation WR too.

<sigh>

Seriously, there is no way the Patriots attempt to run the same offense with Edelman in Welkers role. You know that.

You don't have to be a top 50 or 100 WR to not be a jag. He might be a good fit *for the Patriots*, which is all Belichick cares about. Lots of guys appear to be good fits for New England, but poor fits elsewhere.

And they are jags.

Andy, I don't know, really, what is going on inside your head because you obviously have missed my argument completely. I'm going to quote my entire OP here:

(bolded for emphasis)

So it's not a "totally different discussion" to talk about the $$ savings going from Welker --> Edelman. It was the entire POINT of my original post!

Yeah, I read it. Your argument is that Edelman is the key to the Welker decision. He simply is not. If Welker goes, it will have nothing to do with Edelman staying or not. If Welker goes, we need to go out and find a starting WR. And we have to change our offensive scheme.

 

[ivanvamp]

Yeah, I read it. Your argument is that Edelman is the key to the Welker decision. He simply is not. If Welker goes, it will have nothing to do with Edelman staying or not. If Welker goes, we need to go out and find a starting WR. And we have to change our offensive scheme.

The Patriots must think fairly highly of Edelman. After all, if he is just a jag, why have the Patriots kept him around for 4 years, despite a lack of production and a rash of injuries? And why did he start the first couple of games this season? They like him and they like what he brings to the table. And not just as a special teamer, but as a WR.

My argument is that IF the Patriots think that Edelman can be an effective player at Welker's position, then they might consider letting Welker go so they can use the cost savings to add either defensive help or another quality receiver. (like maybe Bowe or Jennings)

If you disagree, fine. But don't make things up and argue against things that I'm not saying. Geez, that's annoying.

 

[Ring 6]

The Patriots must think fairly highly of Edelman. After all, if he is just a jag, why have the Patriots kept him around for 4 years, despite a lack of production and a rash of injuries? And why did he start the first couple of games this season? They like him and they like what he brings to the table. And not just as a special teamer, but as a WR.

Every team has numerous jags, many of whom play special teams and are backups and some who last a long time. They don't replace legends though.

My argument is that IF the Patriots think that Edelman can be an effective player at Welker's position, then they might consider letting Welker go so they can use the cost savings to add either defensive help or another quality receiver. (like maybe Bowe or Jennings)

If you don't want to discuss the topic, say so, but I cannot just keep repeating myself because you don't listen.
Welker's role is the top receiver and focal point of the passing game. It is totally ludricrous to think that Edelman can be that. The choice is keep Welker or change the offense and go find a starting WR, not make Edelman the focal point. You don't seriously think that is an option do you?
Welker position is not 'white WR'. It is the central piece of the design and scheme of the passing offense, and the go to receiver.

If you disagree, fine. But don't make things up and argue against things that I'm not saying. Geez, that's annoying.

What did I make up?
I agree that is annoying, I am just assuming that when you say Edelman is the key, that you think it is realistic that we would leave the offense unchanged and put Edelman in Welkers spot, and that just isn't reasonable.

 

[supafly]

honestly, I think Edelman improved greatly this year as a wide receiver...if not for injuries he was on pace to have his most productive season as a patriot.

is he a #1 or #2 wide receiver? probably not. but he definitely was dynamic enough to fit into that #3 role...he actually was pretty solid as an outside receiver as well as being used on screens etc.

I can see the issue both ways about 100x through. I can agree that Edelman looked to have improved upon the WR role..although to be fair, the bar was set pretty low in that regard.

On the other hand, I can also see why posters would not think that his "most productive" season as a WR was anything special, because it wasn't.

Now, do I think he has progressed as a WR? Yes. Do I think that the coaches are willing to try and continue that progression? Yes. Is he probably anything better than a very good special teams player, a gadget player, and one who is the WR4? Probably not.

On the other hand, he may be able to fill in some of the loss if Welker is allowed to walk, but we don't even know what that plan would be, besides a lot of speculation about Hernandez and Edelman trying to make up for some of the production.

Overall I like the guy a lot, and I think that he shouldn't have any problem staying. While I want him to achieve some reps and looks, I don't want to have to rely on him as an outside receiver either, and I don't want the NEP decision regarding Welker to go hand in hand with what Edelman does.

 

[ivanvamp]

Every team has numerous jags, many of whom play special teams and are backups and some who last a long time. They don't replace legends though.

There isn't a receiver in the league that could fully replace Welker, and yet at some point, probably in the pretty near future, they're going to have to do just that. The offense, as you say, WILL change. And the fact is that the Pats *did* have Edelman starting in place of Welker to start the year.

If you don't want to discuss the topic, say so, but I cannot just keep repeating myself because you don't listen.
Welker's role is the top receiver and focal point of the passing game. It is totally ludricrous to think that Edelman can be that. The choice is keep Welker or change the offense and go find a starting WR, not make Edelman the focal point. You don't seriously think that is an option do you?
Welker position is not 'white WR'. It is the central piece of the design and scheme of the passing offense, and the go to receiver.

What the hell does "white" have to do with anything? Why would you go there? They had Edelman playing Welker's position, running the same basic routes as Welker did. He doesn't do it as well, but then again, he does some other things better than Welker does. There's a reason they had him starting.

And changing the offense doesn't bother me in the least. They have so much offensive talent that they could do a number of things and be successful. And at most in a few seasons, we're going to see such a change anyway.

What did I make up?

You claimed that I was arguing that the only difference between Welker and Edelman was a lack of opportunity for Edelman.

You claimed that I was arguing that Edelman could replace (and by that you meant "fully replace") Welker.

Both of these claims are false - I never uttered any such things.

I agree that is annoying, I am just assuming that when you say Edelman is the key, that you think it is realistic that we would leave the offense unchanged and put Edelman in Welkers spot, and that just isn't reasonable.

When Edelman started the first couple of games, how much did the Patriots change their offense? Obviously it's going to look a little different. But if I recall, it was pretty much what they normally do.