Stupid NFL Rules

[PatriotSeven]

Whuh huh? It's an atrocious rule but I don't see how it can be deliberately exploited.
No, the same rule was applied in one of the games last week or two weeks ago. They aren't making it up. This is just the first time it has happened on the national stage.

Ok let me make it more simple, if the penalty is 15 yards and a loss of automatic review....it could have just as easily been Gary Kubiak, not Schwartz, that threw the red flag. Texans would have gotten penalized 15 yards, but the bogus touchdown would have stood.

Kubiak could have deliberately thrown the red flag to exploit this rule. At least from the refs and announcers explanation, this is what I came away with.

That's why I would like some further clarification myself.

 

[Wolfpack]

Ok let me make it more simple, if the penalty is 15 yards and a loss of automatic review....it could have just as easily been Gary Kubiak, not Schwartz, that threw the red flag. Texans would have gotten penalized 15 yards, but the bogus touchdown would have stood.

OK I see what you're saying. I think if that happened, then the Lions would simply decline the penalty. No loss of 15 yards and, more importantly, no loss of automatic review.

 

[Uncle Rico]

Nfl.com has this:

NOV
2012
22

Staff
Rule Explanation from Houston-Detroit Game
The Replay Official cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap, such as illegally throwing the challenge flag. For your reference, the same situation happened on a turnover last week in the Arizona-Atlanta game.
The NFL Rule Book (page 89) states:
Replay Official’s Request for Review. After all scoring plays, interceptions, fumbles and backward passes that are recovered by an opponent or go out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, muffed scrimmage kicks recovered by the kicking team, after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period, any Replay Review will be initiated by a Replay Official from a Replay Booth comparable to the location of the coaches’ booth or Press Box. There is no limit to the number of Referee Reviews that may be initiated by the Replay Official. He must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap. His ability to initiate a review will be unrelated to the number of timeouts that either team has remaining, and no timeout will be charged for any review initiated by the Replay Official.

 

[PatriotSeven]

OK I see what you're saying. I think if that happened, then the Lions would simply decline the penalty. No loss of 15 yards and, more importantly, no loss of automatic review.

Good point if that is the case. But is that even a possibility, because I believe the penalty is enforced after play?

 

[Fencer]

The problem starts with there not being a no-harm, no-foul principle.

If throwing the flag doesn't affect the game -- which it didn't as play would have been stopped anyway -- there should be no more punishment than there would have been if the object thrown was a pink towel.

 

[Wax Frog]

Blech! Thank you, Mr. Coleman, for draining out the entertainmentn

IMO in a sane world this would be handled like an upheld call, just take a challenge and a TO away.

 

[PatriotSeven]

Nfl.com has this:

Staff
Rule Explanation from Houston-Detroit Game
The Replay Official cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap, such as illegally throwing the challenge flag. For your reference, the same situation happened on a turnover last week in the Arizona-Atlanta game.

Does anyone want to break that NFL speak down?

From that it sounds like the replay official cannot initiate a review of a ruling, such as the ruling against the illegal throwing of the flag, which gave them a 15 yard penalty.

What about the automatic review of the scoring play though? Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding that.

 

[Wax Frog]

Entertainment value: murdered in cold blood

IMO in a sane world this would be handled like an upheld call, just take a challenge and a TO away.

 

[Pujo]

Yeah Schwartz tried challenging, which he shouldn't have because it's automatically reviewed.

That's a 15 penalty....but this time the refs said it also cancels out the automatic review.

First time I hear about it. The issue of course is, that if a referee blows a call and calls a non-touchdown a touchdown then you could theoretically throw the flag, and it prevents the automatic review....thereby forcing a bad call to stick.

If you mean the team that scores the TD (which shouldn't have been a TD) throws a flag to prevent automatic review (and take the 15 yard penalty instead), it wouldn't work since the other team could decline the penalty.

Stupid rule, anyway. Though I recall Belichick throwing the flag on an automatically reviewed play this season and not getting called for 15.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Does anyone want to break that NFL speak down?

From that it sounds like the replay official cannot initiate a review of a ruling, such as the ruling against the illegal throwing of the flag, which gave them a 15 yard penalty.

What about the automatic review of the scoring play though? Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding that.

The replay official cannot initiate a review of a penalty ruling ever.

It means the replay official cannot initiate a review that only he can initiate (such as scoring plays, change of possession due to fumble/INT, plays that happen during 2 minute or OT) if the team whom the review would benefit if overturned committed a penalty prior to his buzzing down that he was indeed reviewing the play. The penalty is treated as if another play had been run and there is no going back to review a play once that happens.

If the coach hadn't thrown his flag the replay official might or might not have buzzed for a review. But he is the only one who can. But once the coach threw the flag he was not allowed to throw and was penalized, there is no review as a result. It's really not a tough rule for a HC to know. Had he called a TO if he had one left to give the replay official more time to think it over, that's not a problem. But throwing a flag he isn't entitled to throw to try to extend the process is because you're committing a penalty in the process. They are treating it as if another plan was run, and you can't review the previous play once another play has run.

 

[Pujo]

Does anyone want to break that NFL speak down?

From that it sounds like the replay official cannot initiate a review of a ruling, such as the ruling against the illegal throwing of the flag, which gave them a 15 yard penalty.

What about the automatic review of the scoring play though? Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding that.

No, it's pretty clear that he cannot initiate a review of any ruling if the team that would benefit from the review commits a penalty that delays the next snap.

I do think there should be a penalty for throwing the challenge flag when there's no right to do so, otherwise coaches could do it within two minutes to cause confusion and slow down a two-minute offense. I don't see why it needs to negate the automatic review.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

No, it's pretty clear that he cannot initiate a review of any ruling if the team that would benefit from the review commits a penalty that delays the next snap.

I do think there should be a penalty for throwing the challenge flag when there's no right to do so, otherwise coaches could do it within two minutes to cause confusion and slow down a two-minute offense. I don't see why it needs to negate the automatic review.

Because most coaches intent on something would take the 15 just for a chance to make their point of view known in hopes of influencing the process. Automatic loss of review takes any advantage out of the equation.

 

[PatriotSeven]

The replay official cannot initiate a review of a penalty ruling ever.

It means the replay official cannot initiate a review that only he can initiate (such as scoring plays, change of possession due to fumble/INT, plays that happen during 2 minute or OT) if the team whom the review would benefit if overturned committed a penalty prior to his buzzing down that he was indeed reviewing the play. The penalty is treated as if another play had been run and there is no going back to review a play once that happens.

If the coach hadn't thrown his flag the replay official might or might not have buzzed for a review. But he is the only one who can. But once the coach threw the flag he was not allowed to throw and was penalized, there is no review as a result. It's really not a tough rule for a HC to know. Had he called a TO if he had one left to give the replay official more time to think it over, that's not a problem. But throwing a flag he isn't entitled to throw to try to extend the process is because you're committing a penalty in the process. They are treating it as if another plan was run, and you can't review the previous play once another play has run.

Great explanation. Thanks.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

It's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of in the NFL, immediate action is required IMO.

I can see penalizing the coach 15 yards for being stupid and not knowing the rules, but in terms of MAKING THE GAME FAIR AND JUST it makes ZERO SENSE to just discard the replay in that situation. Very stupid rule and I hope it's abolished asap.

That was probably the most frustrating game I've watched in a while, even more frustrating than some of the Patriots losses. I just hate seeing games decided like that, and I won't even get into Schwartz's playing not to lose and settling for a 47 yard FG. UGH

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The problem I have with this rule is this. What if Gary Kubiak threw the challenge flag? Does it still cancel the review for Detroit? If so, that is a huge unfair advantage.

That's why I think immediate action is required. If I'm an NFL coach and a big TD is awarded to me wrongly in a key moment, I throw my flag immediately.

 

[The Gr8est]

Once upon the time, I was a huge NBA and Celtic fan. Then, I just stopped following both as I became more and more dismayed with NBA officiating and how the rules of the game were enforced.

I'd hate to wake up someday and find my passion for football and the Patriots has been lost because of the same thing.

Between personal foul and pass interference penalties and nonsense like allowing a touchdown when the player was clearly down because a coach asked for a challenge when one is automatic makes me wonder if that day might come.

Absolutely. The Lions losing the game in OT can be blamed squarely on themselves, but it should have never gotten to OT.

If the Pats lost a big game due to a call such as happened to the Lions today that would definitely diminish my enthusiasm for the sport.

It's bad enough that the Pats officially lost to the Ravens, when both the FG was missed, and a professionally officiated game is likely a blowout in the Pats favor.

Totally unacceptable.

 

[robbomango]

+1 +1 +1.

The NFL's logic is idiotic. Essentially they're saying "you delayed the game by throwing your flag, so we no longer care about getting the correct call."

Another black eye for the league.

Where's the delay, the time it took a ref to pick up the flag and hand it back to Swartz? lol, I'm confused as usual.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Once again, the penalty alone won't keep these guys from throwing a flag they aren't entitled to throw. That's why they treat it like another play had been run, in which case there is no automatic review either even if it's clear as day replay would have resulted in an overturned ruling. It's like the 10 second runoff if a D makes a play or the clock stops as a result of their play but they are flagged for a penalty in the process. You cannot allow these guys to benefit in any way from an illegal procedure or they will do it every time they feel it's their best shot. Throwing a flag there is akin to attempting to influence a replay officials decision if not intimidate him into making one, do it or I'll have a meltdown postgame.

And if any of you soccer moms think an NFL HC would throw a flag to be fair because he didn't want points he wasn't really entitled to...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Jim Schwartz regrets challenge of Houston Texans TD - NFL.com

 

[QuantumMechanic]

That's why I think immediate action is required. If I'm an NFL coach and a big TD is awarded to me wrongly in a key moment, I throw my flag immediately.

Won't do any good. The review is only cancelled if the flag is illegally thrown by the team that would benefit from a reversal.

If Kubiak had thrown the flag HOU would have been penalized 15 yards but the TD would still have been reviewed.