So the TC base defense is again starting out 4-3

[Ring 6]

Your argument goes up in flames now that we all forget about Carter. He started every game he played in last year, and played around 80-90% of snaps in most games.

Defensive snaps - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

We did start a 255 pound DE, and instead of being dominated, he dominated opposing Tackles.

Really?
Do you know what my argument is?
I accept that if we play a 43 we will have a 260 lb RDE, just like we did last year when we were medicore vs the run.
What I don't accept is that we will also play a 260lb LDE in a 43 base which we probably did less than 15 snaps all of last season.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Really?
Do you know what my argument is?
I accept that if we play a 43 we will have a 260 lb RDE, just like we did last year when we were medicore vs the run.
What I don't accept is that we will also play a 260lb LDE in a 43 base which we probably did less than 15 snaps all of last season.

I see, sorry. So was Anderson playing RDE in the playoff games (not SB) when he started 142/144 snaps?

 

[mayoclinic]

I think a lot depends on the defense we put together as a base.
I think there is no chance we play a 260 LDE in a base 43, so really, all of the 43 DE/34 OLB guys are fighting over 1 spot. I would be thrilled if Jones earns it, and not disappointed if he does not.
If we are playing a 34, I expect that Hightower is going to end up at OLB, and the others will be fighting Nink for playing time with pass rush skills being the priority (I think Hightower becomes the all around OLB across from the full time rusher).
I agree with your last comment that sub package pass rusher is the most critical role for Jones, and possilby Bequette. (I think this board is severely overrating Bequette at this stage) Frankly, the sub DE is as if not more important than the base DE or OLB, so I think if jones earns that role and plays well, it would be a very successful rookie year for a #1 pick.

From my point of view there's a long term question, and a short term one of what to do for 2012. I agree with you that we're not going to morph into the old Indy Colts offense with 260 lb. ends on both sides of the ball in our base. I think Bequette could possibly have enough heft to play LDE for us, especially if he adds a few pounds, but that's probably a long term option more than one for the immediate future. I agree that Jones and Bequette are most likely going to be sub rushers this year, and anything beyond that would be a pleasant bonus. For the short term, Fanene and Deaderick look like good options for base LDEs moving inside on passing dows, with Ninko and Hightower looking like good options at LB with the ability to move up on the line in sub packages.

I'm sure the Pats are playing around with a lot of options right now. I personally wouldn't try to draw too many conclusions based on one day of practice (not to suggest that you are).

 

[Ring 6]

First off, OTOH, Ninko played LDE against the Eagles last year. The team does employ a lighter 4-man front even as a base. Like everything we do, it's dependent upon opponent. And so far, he and Scott have been the DEs in this offseason, with Deaderick playing inside.

Deaderick and Ellis were the only LDEs last year in the base D.

Second, your argument itself is evolving. I'm sure we can look up posts from last offseason where you scoffed at us being primarily 43 and primarily sub and how we're only interested in big 34 ends. Now you're arguing that we mostly employ a large DE at one of the two DE spots in our 43 man front, that we still only play maybe, what, 15% of the time?

No, you can't but its nice of you to make up things and say I must have said them.
I have been talking about the prevelance and imprtance of sub packages since 2006.
I did not 'scoff' at any discussion of defensive alignment. I blatantly disagreed with the crowd that said we would play an 'attacking one gap 43 defense', and guess what, I was right.
I expected more 34 than 43, but that was irrelevant especially considering we used the exact same personell, which is why we had a 300 lb LDE ALL SEASON. BB also explained that the 43 was easier to teach so with a short camp that is why he started with it. I accept that.
I don't know what the % a 43 base is used has to do with the requirements of who plays LDE in it, perhaps you can explain to me since you keep repaeating it.

No one is arguing with you b/c it's a point that hardly matters. You're arguing about who is playing a position maybe 15% of our snaps just because it supports your outdated model of this defense. The rest of us are concerned with the other 85%.

Actually you are arguing with me, and the base is more like 40-50% depending upon opponent and score.

We have a heavy 43 front, yeah. We also can play a light 43 front. Compared to the sub, we play these formations much less.

When have we played a base 43 with 2 260lb DEs?

Well, we've changed, and so have your arguments. You've begrudged any change to a lighter, faster defense. Before it was begrudging us not being a primarily 34 team, now it's begrudging us not being a 43 team that only employs big DEs.

Not really. The only change is what you misunderstand.
We were absolutely not, by any means a lighter, faster defense last year.
I have said for years 34 or 43 is irrelevant because it is the same personell. How is that begrudging?

And might that have something to do with our RDE - a 255lb DE, BTW - going down for the year? Is it not a coincidence the shift happened then? I think we tried 43 for one more game, and realized Ellis still sucked, so we moved on. Plus, again, it's hugely dictated by opponent.

Probably did, because the other 6 guys stayed the same, and Carter was more comfortable in a 3 point stance. What you fail to realize is the concepts of the defense were unchanged, only the alignment.

Let's just review what we've done this offseason:

1) Drafted Chandler Jones, a 265lbs DE

or 34 olb, and sub DE

2) Drafted Jake Bequette, a 270lbs DE

see above

3) Drafted Dont'a Hightower, a 270lbs LB who plays DE in sub

You have absolutely no idea what his role will be. VERY doubtful he will be a DE in sub

4) Moved Rob Ninkovich, at 260lbs, to DE full-time

What? You just made that up.

5) Signed Trevor Scott, at 250lbs, and played him at DE across from Ninkovich

So, we signed a guy with zero sacks and will build a defense around him?

6) Played Brandon Deaderick inside in camps

Huh? Camp is 1 day old.

7) Run a base 43 in all offseason camps

Every year BB has been here the 43 is introduced first, and AGAIN 43 or 34 is irrelevant, CONCEPT is relevant.

8) Not signed a single 34 defensive end

Fanene

9) Not drafted a single 34 defensive end

So all the other years we didnt do that mean what?

Please look at these facts and tell me what conclusion you make from them.

That you made a list and pretended it supports your predefined conclusion.

 

[Ring 6]

From my point of view there's a long term question, and a short term one of what to do for 2012. I agree with you that we're not going to morph into the old Indy Colts offense with 260 lb. ends on both sides of the ball in our base. I think Bequette could possibly have enough heft to play LDE for us, especially if he adds a few pounds, but that's probably a long term option more than one for the immediate future. I agree that Jones and Bequette are most likely going to be sub rushers this year, and anything beyond that would be a pleasant bonus. For the short term, Fanene and Deaderick look like good options for base LDEs moving inside on passing dows, with Ninko and Hightower looking like good options at LB with the ability to move up on the line in sub packages.

I'm sure the Pats are playing around with a lot of options right now. I personally wouldn't try to draw too many conclusions based on one day of practice (not to suggest that you are).

Agree completely.

 

[Ring 6]

I see, sorry. So was Anderson playing RDE in the playoff games (not SB) when he started 142/144 snaps?

Yes, except for when we played 34 and he was an OLB. From memory that was most of the Denver game and part of the Bmore game, but IIRC, we played a lot of nickel vs Bmore.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Yes, except for when we played 34 and he was an OLB. From memory that was most of the Denver game and part of the Bmore game, but IIRC, we played a lot of nickel vs Bmore.

Ok thanks. I came off as hostile, but I'm always glad to learn about the game. I didn't really know a LDE has a different role as a RDE, I just call them DEs.

In that case, I'm a fan of Deaderick at LDE like you said, i'm just no fan of Kyle Love at DT, but he's all we have there. Maybe Fanene could be a better fit.

 

[BradyManny]

OK, that was an awful lot of strawmen and revisionist history of what you have said in the past.

Deaderick and Ellis were the only LDEs last year in the base D.

Wrong:

Defensive snaps: Effect of light 4-3 - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

I blatantly disagreed with the crowd that said we would play an 'attacking one gap 43 defense', and guess what, I was right.
I expected more 34 than 43, but that was irrelevant especially considering we used the exact same personell, which is why we had a 300 lb LDE ALL SEASON. BB also explained that the 43 was easier to teach so with a short camp that is why he started with it. I accept that.
I don't know what the % a 43 base is used has to do with the requirements of who plays LDE in it, perhaps you can explain to me since you keep repaeating it.

How many people here argued that we were going to play a 1-gap? Strawman.

Actually you are arguing with me, and the base is more like 40-50% depending upon opponent and score.

No. It's not. We played a subpackage for 63% of our snaps last year. I'll let you do the math on that one.

When have we played a base 43 with 2 260lb DEs?

Against the Eagles last year and so far this offseason.

Before you strawman me some more, I'm not saying it's a permanent change just that we're also not going to practice something that we're only going to do for "15 snaps" this year.

We were absolutely not, by any means a lighter, faster defense last year.
I have said for years 34 or 43 is irrelevant because it is the same personell. How is that begrudging?

I agree with that, 34 vs 43 is overrated.

Probably did, because the other 6 guys stayed the same, and Carter was more comfortable in a 3 point stance. What you fail to realize is the concepts of the defense were unchanged, only the alignment.

Nope, I get that.

So all the other years we didnt do that mean what?

Honestly, I agree 100% with what Mayoclinic said above, and I agree with most of the stuff in your post directly above.

Of course, Jones can be an OLB. Or Bequette. Or Fanene can play 34DE.

You can't define this defense anymore. My memory tells me that does not jive with what you have said in the last three years. I deeply apologize if my memory is incorrect.

 

[Kontradiction]

Ok thanks. I came off as hostile, but I'm always glad to learn about the game. I didn't really know a LDE has a different role as a RDE, I just call them DEs.

In that case, I'm a fan of Deaderick at LDE like you said, i'm just no fan of Kyle Love at DT, but he's all we have there. Maybe Fanene could be a better fit.

Yeah, well, and that one Wilfork guy. But he's a JAG.

 

[Ring 6]

OK, that was an awful lot of strawmen and revisionist history of what you have said in the past.



Wrong:

Defensive snaps: Effect of light 4-3 - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Look at the db snaps and the LB snaps. We played nickel. Unless you can figure out a way we played 43 with 2 LBs and Nink at DE.

How many people here argued that we were going to play a 1-gap? Strawman.

That was the argument all summer. Where were you?
What argument are you saying happened?

No. It's not. We played a subpackage for 63% of our snaps last year. I'll let you do the math on that one.

And 57 the year before. That sounds like 40% base to me, not 15.
Against the Eagles last year and so far this offseason.

Before you strawman me some more, I'm not saying it's a permanent change just that we're also not going to practice something that we're only going to do for "15 snaps" this year.

I dont even know what you are saying here.

I agree with that, 34 vs 43 is overrated.

Because here, we play them with the same personel which is why we dont have 5 guys in the front 7 at 260lb or less.

Nope, I get that.



That's fine, if you have enough pride that you're just going to pretend you didn't make statements about 34 vs 43 in the past few years, I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

Find one. I have consistently said we have 34 personell more than 43 and also that it doesn't really matter because we use the same personell and different alignment.

Honestly, I agree 100% with what Mayoclinic said above, and I agree with 50% of the stuff in your post above.

Well, you are getting there then

Of course, Jones can be an OLB. Or Bequette. Or Fanene can play 34DE.

so why are you saying otherwise in order to support an argument that the offseason means we wont play 34?

You can't define this defense anymore. My memory tells me that does not jive with what you have said in the last three years. I deeply apologize if my memory is incorrect.

Of course you can define the defense. The concepts haven't changed at all in the 12 years BB has been here. Of course you see more sub when teams throw 60-70% of the time on first and 2nd down. That seems to be what yuo are struggling with.
BB is simply not going to turn his base defense into a Tampa2 with small DEs who get manhandled by the run on both sides and accept that as they sell out to get to the QB.
That is the EXACT reason we play so much sub, because BB prefers to shift to a nickel that to turn his base defense into something totally one dimensional.

 

[Ring 6]

Ok thanks. I came off as hostile, but I'm always glad to learn about the game. I didn't really know a LDE has a different role as a RDE, I just call them DEs.

In that case, I'm a fan of Deaderick at LDE like you said, i'm just no fan of Kyle Love at DT, but he's all we have there. Maybe Fanene could be a better fit.

No prob, no hard feelings at all.

 

[patsinthesnow]

No prob, no hard feelings at all.

It's just confusing. 4-3 base and 4-3 sub, since you would figure a base would be played the majority of the time and sub limited time, but they were close to equal with an edge to the sub.

 

[BradyManny]

That is the EXACT reason we play so much sub, because BB prefers to shift to a nickel that to turn his base defense into something totally one dimensional.

Well, if I have not accurately depicted your posts over the last couple offseasons, I do apologize. Associations can get in one's head that may or may not turn out to be true.

If that's what happened here, then I'm embarrassed for coming across so hard.

You are no doubt one of the more knowledgeable posters here, but I also consider you, and this is not an insult, one of the more stubborn posters here, and so I may have gotten it stuck in my head you thought one thing when you didn't. I don't mean to pick a fight.

At the end of the day, most of the things you are saying I agree with - and I don't want to play devil's advocate just to prove one small aspect of it wrong. I'm sorry if I said anything offensive or unnecessarily aggressive in the last several posts or in the other thread.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, if I have not accurately depicted your posts over the last couple offseasons, I do apologize. Associations can get in one's head that may or may not turn out to be true.

If that's what happened here, then I'm embarrassed for coming across so hard.

You are no doubt one of the more knowledgeable posters here, but I also consider you, and this is not an insult, one of the more stubborn posters here, and so I may have gotten it stuck in my head you thought one thing when you didn't. I don't mean to pick a fight.

At the end of the day, most of the things you are saying I agree with - and I don't want to play devil's advocate just to prove one small aspect of it wrong. I'm sorry if I said anything offensive or unnecessarily aggressive in the last several posts or in the other thread.

Sure, no hard feelings.

 

[Marqui]

nvm ten chars

 

[Patriot 37]

Really?
Do you know what my argument is?
I accept that if we play a 43 we will have a 260 lb RDE, just like we did last year when we were medicore vs the run.
What I don't accept is that we will also play a 260lb LDE in a 43 base which we probably did less than 15 snaps all of last season.

Just curious, when we are in a 4-3 base on 1st and 10. Who do you see as the starting LDE ? Faneane or Deadrick ? What's our starting front 4 ? Much of last year in 4-3 base it was LDE Deadrick, DTs Love Wilfork RDE Carter. If we just replace Carter will Jones Scott or Nink is our pass rush improving ?

I think if we are going improve the pass rush we need to have a better pasher at LDE than Deadrick (one of the 260-270lb guys) or replace Love with Faneane DT. The sub package is one thing but teams can line up in a base package and kill are base D throwing the ball like last year. Keep in mind that if we go a small front 4 man line we still have very big LBs especially for the 4-3 and 2 (Mayo and Spikes) are excellent run defenders.

 

[Ring 6]

Just curious, when we are in a 4-3 base on 1st and 10. Who do you see as the starting LDE ? Faneane or Deadrick ? What's our starting front 4 ? Much of last year in 4-3 base it was LDE Deadrick, DTs Love Wilfork RDE Carter. If we just replace Carter will Jones Scott or Nink is our pass rush improving ?

Yes, that is what I expect. We are talking about the base defense, there is more to be concerned with than just a pass rush out of the 3 big DL.

I think if we are going improve the pass rush we need to have a better pasher at LDE than Deadrick (one of the 260-270lb guys) or replace Love with Faneane DT. The sub package is one thing but teams can line up in a base package and kill are base D throwing the ball like last year. Keep in mind that if we go a small front 4 man line we still have very big LBs especially for the 4-3 and 2 (Mayo and Spikes) are excellent run defenders.

How big your LBs are doesn't much matter if your DL is getting manhandled. If the opponent is going to throw consistently on 1st down, we will move to a nickel, which accentuates pass rushing in the DE spots and adds an extra DB for coverage.

Our goal is not to morph out base defense into a one dimensional pass defense. It is to have a base defense that is equally adept vs the run and pass, and a nickel defense that is more one dimensional vs the pass.

 

[Patriot 37]

Yes, that is what I expect. We are talking about the base defense, there is more to be concerned with than just a pass rush out of the 3 big DL.


How big your LBs are doesn't much matter if your DL is getting manhandled. If the opponent is going to throw consistently on 1st down, we will move to a nickel, which accentuates pass rushing in the DE spots and adds an extra DB for coverage.

Our goal is not to morph out base defense into a one dimensional pass defense. It is to have a base defense that is equally adept vs the run and pass, and a nickel defense that is more one dimensional vs the pass.

Your idea that you can't stop the run with 2 small (under 270lbs) DEs in the base package is dead wrong. Phi and Atl had better ranked run Defenses than the Pats last year with 2 small DEs in the base package.

 

[celticboy04]

I'm not sure I'd want Jones or Bequette as starters just yet. Of the "Pass Rushers" Hightower looked the most NFL ready coming out of college. I'd be happy for the Patriots to inject Jones and/or Bequette in an Aldon Smith type of scenario allowing them to wet their feet in the NFL at first.

Greetings,
I see Bequette having a 7 or 8 sack season along with 20 tackles, without starting a game. My gut feeling is he will be an excellent situational player this season, and one of the biggest draft surprises for the Patriots in years.

Celticboy04

Greetings,
My feelings as well. I felt when he was drafted that Bequette was a poor man's Aldon Smith.

Celticboy04

 

[BBass]

Really?
Do you know what my argument is?
I accept that if we play a 43 we will have a 260 lb RDE, just like we did last year when we were medicore vs the run.
What I don't accept is that we will also play a 260lb LDE in a 43 base which we probably did less than 15 snaps all of last season.

Our base is a 4-2/2-4. The NFL is a passing league, the sub package is now a 7 man front. This 4-3/3-4 lineup you've spent hours blogging about with 300 pound LDE is the actual sub package.

I know you keep thinking of the Warren, Wilfork, Seymour front but that was 5-6 years ago before half ass QB like Matthew Stafford were tossing for 5,000 yards..

The Patriots are built to score 30-35 points a game, our offense is going to be our best defense against the run.. Teams don't run from behind.

Andy you bring a lot of good points to this blog but you need to move past this 4-3/3-4 base lineup and understand you will see 3 big bodies on the field less then 25% of the time this season.