So the TC base defense is again starting out 4-3

[BananaRepublican]

I am somewhat hesitant to believe that Jones will be starting in the base defense, at least at first

Roger that. I would guess that he projects to get worked in slowly. We're getting ahead of ourselves with glee maybe.

In a way we have so much depth that I don't care who starts. Really and truly. Jones and Hightower and Bequette are all going to see serious action no matter who starts where.

It's going to be fun to see how they line up though, and who takes over and shows something first.

 

[ausbacker]

I am somewhat hesitant to believe that Jones will be starting in the base defense, at least at first (unless you're referring to subs, the whole Ninkovich deal kind of throws me off).

Like many other rookies, he will likely be blended in as the season progresses and he is able to learn more assignments and responsibilities.

There will likely be many different combinations of the front 4, including Deaderick (outside), Fanane (maybe both inside/outside), and Pryor in subs(inside). That doesn't even take into acct possible guys like Brace/Warren in the run heavy packages.

Lots of options = always a good sign

I'm not sure I'd want Jones or Bequette as starters just yet. Of the "Pass Rushers" Hightower looked the most NFL ready coming out of college. I'd be happy for the Patriots to inject Jones and/or Bequette in an Aldon Smith type of scenario allowing them to wet their feet in the NFL at first.

 

[Off The Grid]

What about Ninkovich-Wilfork-Love-Jones?

Let's try to leave their personal lives out'f this. :nono:

 

[BTTA]

I'm not sure I'd want Jones or Bequette as starters just yet. Of the "Pass Rushers" Hightower looked the most NFL ready coming out of college. I'd be happy for the Patriots to inject Jones and/or Bequette in an Aldon Smith type of scenario allowing them to wet their feet in the NFL at first.

Agree. Everything about Jones says "project." Perhaps he's making contributions later in the season, but the coaching he got in college combined his relative under-development physically indicates he's got a way to go before being trusted with significant responsibilities in a Pats' defense. And right now there is too much depth on the front seven to push for rushing him (knock on wood).

 

[1960Pats]

Video cameras are banned. Still cameras or phones that also take videos are not. I shot what I posted with a Sony RX100 camera. With the angle I had, I doubt any state secrets are being given away.

Sorry Fly, but you filmed from the wrong place and you could be looking at a fine and the loss of a 1st round draft pick.

 

[Ring 6]

If Ninkovich can play 4-3 DE effectively, which I'm skeptical as Andy suggests at 260 pounds, this would be one talented front seven:

Ninkovich-Wilfork-Deaderick-Jones

Hightower-Spikes-Mayo

That DL would get eaten alive by the run. Move Deaderick to LDE and put Love at DT, as a base and bring Fanene in at DT and any number of pass rushers at DE in the sub.

 

[Ring 6]

Agree. Everything about Jones says "project." Perhaps he's making contributions later in the season, but the coaching he got in college combined his relative under-development physically indicates he's got a way to go before being trusted with significant responsibilities in a Pats' defense. And right now there is too much depth on the front seven to push for rushing him (knock on wood).

Why would you think he received poor coaching in college? A weak college team does not mean the position coaching is necessarily bad. Many of the top players in the NFL came from losing college squads.
Also not sure why you think he is physically underdeveloped.
Finally, I have no real clue what you consider too much depth at a pass rushing DE position. We lost the top 2 pass rushers from last years team, and have added Jones, a 3rd round pick, and a guy who has 1.5 sacks in the last 2 years, and not a single one last season.
I don't see 1, much less 2 players who are blocking Jones from playing DE in sub packages, at least, which is essentially a starter.
Where are all these fabulous pass rusher you think we have?

 

[Kontradiction]

What about
Ninkovich-Wilfork-Love-Jones?

And Fanene will fit in for plenty of reps.

Fanene will take turns spelling Wilfork in subpackages as an interior rusher. Jones, Scott, Ninkovich, and Bequette will most likely be alternating in and out throughout the season at DE in the 4-3 and OLB in the 3-4 (I suspect we'll be running a hybrid throughout the season).

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not sure I'd want Jones or Bequette as starters just yet. Of the "Pass Rushers" Hightower looked the most NFL ready coming out of college. I'd be happy for the Patriots to inject Jones and/or Bequette in an Aldon Smith type of scenario allowing them to wet their feet in the NFL at first.

I think a lot depends on the defense we put together as a base.
I think there is no chance we play a 260 LDE in a base 43, so really, all of the 43 DE/34 OLB guys are fighting over 1 spot. I would be thrilled if Jones earns it, and not disappointed if he does not.
If we are playing a 34, I expect that Hightower is going to end up at OLB, and the others will be fighting Nink for playing time with pass rush skills being the priority (I think Hightower becomes the all around OLB across from the full time rusher).
I agree with your last comment that sub package pass rusher is the most critical role for Jones, and possilby Bequette. (I think this board is severely overrating Bequette at this stage) Frankly, the sub DE is as if not more important than the base DE or OLB, so I think if jones earns that role and plays well, it would be a very successful rookie year for a #1 pick.

 

[patsinthesnow]

That DL would get eaten alive by the run. Move Deaderick to LDE and put Love at DT, as a base and bring Fanene in at DT and any number of pass rushers at DE in the sub.

I'm not sure it would. You got one stud in the middle (Wilfork) and another good big body in Deaderick, with Spikes/Mayo/Hightower behind them, all great run defenders. Ninko sets the edge well despite his size.

Wasn't the base defense vs. the Ravens last year Deaderick-Love-Wilfork-Anderson? Anderson is a way bigger liability vs. the run and we still destroyed Rice.

What about
Ninkovich-Wilfork-Love-Jones?

And Fanene will fit in for plenty of reps.

I like Deaderick better as a player, but Love could work. Good point about Fanene. I agree with others that it's a longshot that Jones would start, but name a better passrusher than him when you already have Ninkovich on the field? Jones pure talent alone is better than putting Scott/Cunningham/Bequette on the field.

Ideally you would want Carter out there instead of Jones.

 

[BradyManny]

I think a lot depends on the defense we put together as a base.
I think there is no chance we play a 260 LDE in a base 43, so really, all of the 43 DE/34 OLB guys are fighting over 1 spot. I would be thrilled if Jones earns it, and not disappointed if he does not.

Andy, I mean no offense, but you have been reticent to truly acknowledge the change that is going on in this defense for two years now. We went through minicamps and opened training camp with Ninko and Scott playing DE in the base according to reports, they weigh in at 260 & 250.

We played sub 57% of the time in 2010, and 63% of the time in 2011, and that number figures to increase in 2012 - with the bulk of the leftover being 43 base. He just drafted three guys who weigh in the 260-270 range. It's time to evolve what you think a Bill Belichick defense looks like, b/c Bill Belichick adapts.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Andy, I mean no offense, but you have been reticent to truly acknowledge the change that is going on in this defense for two years now. We went through minicamps and opened training camp with Ninko and Scott playing DE in the base according to reports, they weigh in at 260 & 250.

We played sub 57% of the time in 2010, and 63% of the time in 2011, and that number figures to increase in 2012 - with the bulk of the leftover being 43 base. He just drafted three guys who weigh in the 260-270 range. It's time to evolve what you think a Bill Belichick defense looks like, b/c Bill Belichick adapts.

Agreed, and why would you want a huge DL anyway when you have Spikes/Hightower/Mayo waiting behind them? Team's are going to be down double digits, I'd rather maximize pass rush ability on the line.

 

[ausbacker]

Agreed, and why would you want a huge DL anyway when you have Spikes/Hightower/Mayo waiting behind them? Team's are going to be down double digits, I'd rather maximize pass rush ability on the line.

I know he's a linebacker but I took great interest in Ray Lewis' comments that he had slimmed down to meet the speed demands of the modern game.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, I mean no offense, but you have been reticent to truly acknowledge the change that is going on in this defense for two years now. We went through minicamps and opened training camp with Ninko and Scott playing DE in the base according to reports, they weigh in at 260 & 250.

We played sub 57% of the time in 2010, and 63% of the time in 2011, and that number figures to increase in 2012 - with the bulk of the leftover being 43 base. He just drafted three guys who weigh in the 260-270 range. It's time to evolve what you think a Bill Belichick defense looks like, b/c Bill Belichick adapts.

No offense to you either, but it is silly to categorize me as 'reticent to acccept' something that did not happen. We went through this all of last year, and Ellis and Deaderick were the LDEs. I think everyone disagreeing with me stating all of last year that we wouldn't use a 260lb DE was 'reticent to accept' the realitry that we did not.
How does that represent a change going on for 2 years, when it didn't happen.

I am not going to 'evolve' my thinking based upon something that does not happen.

Of course we use sub packages a lot. What does that have to do with the requirements to play a position in the base?
You do realize that as the year went on last year we played more 34 base than 43 much of the time, right?

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not sure it would. You got one stud in the middle (Wilfork) and another good big body in Deaderick, with Spikes/Mayo/Hightower behind them, all great run defenders. Ninko sets the edge well despite his size.

Its not worth arguing if you think that DL with 3 of the 4 playing a position they are undersized for wouldn't get destroyed vs the run,.

Wasn't the base defense vs. the Ravens last year Deaderick-Love-Wilfork-Anderson? Anderson is a way bigger liability vs. the run and we still destroyed Rice.

Yes, a 300lb LDE.

I like Deaderick better as a player, but Love could work. Good point about Fanene. I agree with others that it's a longshot that Jones would start, but name a better passrusher than him when you already have Ninkovich on the field? Jones pure talent alone is better than putting Scott/Cunningham/Bequette on the field.

Ideally you would want Carter out there instead of Jones.

Carter is not a Patriot.

 

[Ring 6]

Agreed, and why would you want a huge DL anyway when you have Spikes/Hightower/Mayo waiting behind them? Team's are going to be down double digits, I'd rather maximize pass rush ability on the line.

Seriously? You don't know why you wouldn't want to have your DE dominated in the running game?

 

[patsinthesnow]

Ok, not worth arguing. I dont't think they'd be destroyed, you do.

You don't have to be wise either. Obviously Carter is not a patriot, I said "ideally."

EDIT: Wait a second, explain Andre Carter to us? Ya know, the stud 4-3 DE vs. the run and pass at 6'4 255 pounds?

 

[Ring 6]

Ok, not worth arguing. I dont't think they'd be destroyed, you do.

You don't have to be wise either. Obviously Carter is not a patriot, I said "ideally."

Well that was your response to me asking why you feel there is a lot of depth at passing spots, and why you think there is 'too much depth' for Jones to play, and my question of where is there one, much less 2 players blocking him, so if you feel my response to your answer was wise, myabe you should consider how poor your answer was.

 

[BradyManny]

No offense to you either, but it is silly to categorize me as 'reticent to acccept' something that did not happen. We went through this all of last year, and Ellis and Deaderick were the LDEs. I think everyone disagreeing with me stating all of last year that we wouldn't use a 260lb DE was 'reticent to accept' the realitry that we did not.
How does that represent a change going on for 2 years, when it didn't happen.

First off, OTOH, Ninko played LDE against the Eagles last year. The team does employ a lighter 4-man front even as a base. Like everything we do, it's dependent upon opponent. And so far, he and Scott have been the DEs in this offseason, with Deaderick playing inside.

Second, your argument itself is evolving. I'm sure we can look up posts from last offseason where you scoffed at us being primarily 43 and primarily sub and how we're only interested in big 34 ends. Now you're arguing that we mostly employ a large DE at one of the two DE spots in our 43 man front, that we still only play maybe, what, 15% of the time?

No one is arguing with you b/c it's a point that hardly matters. You're arguing about who is playing a position maybe 15% of our snaps just because it supports your outdated model of this defense. The rest of us are concerned with the other 85%.

We have a heavy 43 front, yeah. We also can play a light 43 front. Compared to the sub, we play these formations much less.

I am not going to 'evolve' my thinking based upon something that does not happen.

Well, we've changed, and so have your arguments. You've begrudged any change to a lighter, faster defense. Before it was begrudging us not being a primarily 34 team, now it's begrudging us not being a 43 team that only employs big DEs.

You do realize that as the year went on last year we played more 34 base than 43 much of the time, right?

And might that have something to do with our RDE - a 255lb DE, BTW - going down for the year? Is it not a coincidence the shift happened then? I think we tried 43 for one more game, and realized Ellis still sucked, so we moved on. Plus, again, it's hugely dictated by opponent.

Let's just review what we've done this offseason:

1) Drafted Chandler Jones, a 265lbs DE
2) Drafted Jake Bequette, a 270lbs DE
3) Drafted Dont'a Hightower, a 270lbs LB who plays DE in sub
4) Moved Rob Ninkovich, at 260lbs, to DE full-time
5) Signed Trevor Scott, at 250lbs, and played him at DE across from Ninkovich
6) Played Brandon Deaderick inside in camps
7) Run a base 43 in all offseason camps
8) Not signed a single 34 defensive end
9) Not drafted a single 34 defensive end
10) Signed Jonathan Fanene, a 285lbs DE


Please look at these facts and tell me what conclusion you make from them.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Well that was your response to me asking why you feel there is a lot of depth at passing spots, and why you think there is 'too much depth' for Jones to play, and my question of where is there one, much less 2 players blocking him, so if you feel my response to your answer was wise, myabe you should consider how poor your answer was.

Your argument goes up in flames now that we all forget about Carter. He started every game he played in last year, and played around 80-90% of snaps in most games.

Defensive snaps - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

We did start a 255 pound DE, and instead of being dominated, he dominated opposing Tackles.