The 2011 Draft ~ Random Observations

[Snake Eyes]

Do you have a problem with the Pats adding Solder and Vollmer who are 6'08 1/2" and 6'07 5/8" respectively???

Now, Havenstein played guard, so that COULD be an issue, but it might not be..Havenstein could be an OT by the time he graduates (2014).. Only time will tell.

I mentioned Zeitler because he's a senior next year.

Being that tall can help with edge rushers, the longer extension of the tackle can make the rusher run a wider arc but it also comes at a price, as it makes it easier to get underneath and bull-rush them. For interior linemen they don't have that wide arc, so they don't get the advantage but they do get the disadvantage. BTW, Solder has been bullrusher successfully by players significantly shorter and lighter than him.

You'll hear commentators say "low man wins" here and there but people don't seem to apply that concept more broadly, physics doesn't just allow Jones-Drew to break tackles through being short, it applies in the trenches as well.

 

[conway]

OTG and "flankers"

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but some offensive systems designate a receiver as a "flanker". I believe it's normally the receiver on the TE side, opposite the "split end"/WR. I think it's a fairly common designation. I'm not sure why you have created your own terminology for a dozen or so positions.

 

[Off The Grid]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but some offensive systems designate a receiver as a "flanker". I believe it's normally the receiver on the TE side, opposite the "split end"/WR. I think it's a fairly common designation. I'm not sure why you have created your own terminology for a dozen or so positions.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you think I'm unaware that the Wide Receiver opposite the Split End is called "Flanker"??

Thanks for the update, pal.

By the way, did you know that the guys at the ends of the O Lines are called "Tackles"??

So I guess we need a new term for the guys in the middle of the D Line.


***

I've created new terminology because the old terminology is in bad need of an upgrade.

And I've created it to acknowledge that roles are often FAR different within a "position."

1 ~ "LineBacker" is an astonishingly weak and degrading term. Why should these guys be described as "backing" other players?? ALL Defense men "back" each other, but all of the others get a nomenclature that suggests they are full partners, so to speak. "LineBacker" pretty much says "LineMan's Assistant" and is far too lame for me to bear.

Mid Fielder is the term I use.

2 ~ "OutSide LineBacker" and "Middle LineBacker" are terms that are far too cumbersome and idiotic to abide. And why the hell do we refer to all of them as "LineBackers" in the first place, as if they have the same job?? Do we call an End a "Tackle", or a Corner a "Safety??"

Flanker ~ Defensive Flanker, to use the whole name.

3 ~ Alge Crumpler, Rob Gronkowski, and Aaron Hernandez are all called Tight Ends, and that's a start but they have 3 different roles.

Tight End
Flex End
Wing Back

4 ~ Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, and Danny WoodHead are 3 different kinds of Running Backs. Why not adopt quick and easy terms that immediately let us know what their specialties are??

Power Back
Flex Back
Scat Back

5 ~ Owen Marecic and Stanely Havili are both Full Backs, but two entirely different creatures. Why not acknowledge them both as Full Backs, but, like Wide Receivers, Running Backs, Tight Ends, LineMen, and the Secondary, why not acknowledge different roles??

Full Back
Swing Back

As you see, most of those terms aren't even inventions of mine.

And the few I came up with make one HELL of a lot more sense than the common, stale terms most use.

Just trying to enhance things, gents: maybe add a little Flavor.

 

[conway]

Well, if you're going to list them, how about providing definitions? Flanker and wingback already have commonly accepted definitions, but perhaps they need to be modified to accommodate your system.

And is it really adequate to label all middle linebackers "Mid Fielders"? After all, Mayo, Spikes, and Guyton, for instance, fill very different roles.

Might I suggest:

Mayo plays the traditional "Mid Fielder", the versatile sideline-to-sideline tackler who can drop into coverage and occasionally (theoretically) rushes the passer.

Spikes is a "Mid Field Stopper", who plays primarily on 1st and 2d down, with a focus on stopping the run and comes off the field in passing situations.

Guyton is a "Mid Field Sweeper", who is more likely to drop into coverage.

I'm not sure the Pats really have a "Mid Field Slasher", whose primary role is rushing the passer from the Mid Field position.

And don't get me started on the varieties at the DEFENSIVE flanker position.

But what this team really needs is an Offensive Possession Catcher (or receiver)-Occasional Wolfback (or Slot Cornerback, for the traditionalists)-Punishment Glutton (aka punt returner). In another words, another Troy Brown.

Doesn't it get a little silly? Can't we just use the traditional terms so we're all on the same page? And then maybe we can be more descriptive in how we talk about individual players, rather than the positions themselves? Plus, calling a linebacker a "mid fielder" makes him sound like a 5'7" European in short shorts that plays a sport that makes minimal use of his hands. I don't think Spikes would like that.

 

[Off The Grid]

Well, if you're going to list them, how about providing definitions?

I've already done so, prior to your joining us.

Feel free to look them up.

And is it really adequate to label all middle linebackers "Mid Fielders"? After all, Mayo, Spikes, and Guyton, for instance, fill very different roles.

Might I suggest:

Mayo plays the traditional "Mid Fielder", the versatile sideline-to-sideline tackler who can drop into coverage and occasionally (theoretically) rushes the passer.

Spikes is a "Mid Field Stopper", who plays primarily on 1st and 2d down, with a focus on stopping the run and comes off the field in passing situations.

Guyton is a "Mid Field Sweeper", who is more likely to drop into coverage.

I'm not sure the Pats really have a "Mid Field Slasher", whose primary role is rushing the passer from the Mid Field position.

And don't get me started on the varieties at the DEFENSIVE flanker position.

But what this team really needs is an Offensive Possession Catcher (or receiver)-Occasional Wolfback (or Slot Cornerback, for the traditionalists)-Punishment Glutton (aka punt returner). In another words, another Troy Brown.

Doesn't it get a little silly?

Yes, it certainly does.

Good luck with that.

 

[MaineMan]

Do you have a problem with the Pats adding Solder and Vollmer who are 6'08 1/2" and 6'07 5/8" respectively???

Now, Havenstein played guard, so that COULD be an issue, but it might not be..Havenstein could be an OT by the time he graduates (2014).. Only time will tell.

I mentioned Zeitler because he's a senior next year.

Actually, I only brought Havenstein up in specualtion that, at his current apparent growth rate, he could be 7'2"/450 by the time he's a senior. At which point, edge-rushers might need a bus pass to get around him even when he's standing still. And, bull-rush? Hell, he could just fall on them.

 

[Metaphors]

Being that tall can help with edge rushers, the longer extension of the tackle can make the rusher run a wider arc but it also comes at a price, as it makes it easier to get underneath and bull-rush them. For interior linemen they don't have that wide arc, so they don't get the advantage but they do get the disadvantage. BTW, Solder has been bullrusher successfully by players significantly shorter and lighter than him.

You'll hear commentators say "low man wins" here and there but people don't seem to apply that concept more broadly, physics doesn't just allow Jones-Drew to break tackles through being short, it applies in the trenches as well.

These are the reasons why I wasn't keen on Solder in this draft. In multiple games (particularly against Cal), he was caught on his heels far too often. Though the sack numbers weren't bad, he wasn't consistently keeping the pocket clean.

However, I'm trying to suppress my skepticism with the following:

1) The Colorado QB had extreme happy feet and the OL was forced to protect a huge and ill-defined pocket. Not the case with Brady.

2) His issues seemed to be with subtle technique and not anything fundamental that can't be corrected (I was scared to death with Castonzo and whiffing on outside rushers). He seems coachable, has Scar to teach him and Vollmer to act as a role model.

3) That "arc" you mentioned extends forward as well as side-to-side. If Solder maximizes his potential, it will be difficult for bull rushers to get into his pads due to his long reach on his initial punch. At his best, Jonathan Ogden blew up bull rushers before they could get close to him. Not saying Solder will reach that level of productivity...just saying there is a gold standard for taller tackles dominating in every 1-on-1 battle, regardless of the opponent.

I absolutely agree with the points in your post but I'm trying to be positive about Solder's potential and his ability to reach it.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The disadvantages can be mitigated with proper technique coaching, I just hope BB and Scar understand this and haven’t bought into the silly height/arm length fascination so many have, for QBs the binkie attribute is arm strength. I had high hopes for Maneri to take over at RT and Vollmer to anchor the left, I hopes Solder becomes the man.

 

[patfanken]

I find it curious about all the talk of Solder's problem with bull rushing and run blocking, all issues of size and strength; I had them too...UNTIL I saw Solder's stint on Sports Science and read a comment by Von Miller.

In the Sports Science piece Solder is asked to punch at the heavy bag, and then stop its momentum WITHOUT backing up. I forget the exact poundage, but it was significant, and Solder was able to absorb the bag WITHOUT backing off an inch.

Probably more telling was this year's 2nd overall pick and consensus best pass rusher in the country, saying that Solder gave him more trouble and anyone else.

Finally fears of him not being a decent run blocker, a la D'Brickashaw Fergeson, in his early days. I think that's nonsense. Fergeson came into the league at UNDER 300 pounds. Solder is NOW 320 and still growing. He's got faster feet than Light and is already 20 lbs heavier. Weight and acceleration are the 2 factor in determining power. Solder should be more than just fine at run blocking.

He's got one of the best OL coaches in the league. He's got superior physical gifts. He's got the willingness to learn. He'll be playing next to an all pro LG. Sounds like a recipe for success, don't ya think?

 

[Off The Grid]

I just hope BB and Scar understand this and haven’t bought into the silly height/arm length fascination so many have...

S'far's I can tell, you ~ and you, alone ~ are obsessed with this.

Most of the best O Tackles in the Game are Long + Strong, despite your disturbing obsession with Dwarfs.

 

[Snake Eyes]

S'far's I can tell, you ~ and you, alone ~ are obsessed with this.

Most of the best O Tackles in the Game are Long + Strong, despite your disturbing obsession with Dwarfs.

Exactly which obsession with Dwarfs is that, cause I have more than one, ya know

Joe Thomas, Michael Roos, and Jake Long all have short arms by your standards but they're some of the best tackles in the league. As far as physical attributes go in football, it starts at the ground, that's where a QBs throw starts and that's also when an O-lineman's block starts. Having light feet, strong legs, and excellent processing ability is going to make a great player.

 

[Off The Grid]

I just hope BB and Scar understand this and haven’t bought into the silly height/arm length fascination so many have...

Most of the best O Tackles in the Game are Long + Strong, despite your disturbing obsession with Dwarfs.

Joe Thomas, Michael Roos, and Jake Long all have short arms by your standards but they're some of the best tackles in the league.

Elite O Tackles + The "Silly Height Obsession"

1 ~ Joe Thomas ~ 6.6
2 ~ Ryan Clady ~ 6.6
3 ~ Jake Long ~ 6.7
4 ~ Michael Roos ~ 6.7
5 ~ Sebastian Vollmer ~ 6.8

You were saying??

 

[Snake Eyes]

Elite O Tackles + The "Silly Height Obsession"

1 ~ Joe Thomas ~ 6.6
2 ~ Ryan Clady ~ 6.6
3 ~ Jake Long ~ 6.7
4 ~ Michael Roos ~ 6.7
5 ~ Sebastian Vollmer ~ 6.8

You were saying??

The guys I mentioned, how long are their arms?

Also, I specifically wrote "height/arm length", you chose to omit that part because it doesnt support your argument. Nice try though

 

[Off The Grid]

I just hope BB and Scar understand this and haven’t bought into the silly height/arm length fascination so many have...

S'far's I can tell, you ~ and you, alone ~ are obsessed with this.

Most of the best O Tackles in the Game are Long + Strong, despite your disturbing obsession with Dwarfs.

Joe Thomas, Michael Roos, and Jake Long all have short arms by your standards but they're some of the best tackles in the league...

Elite O Tackles + The "Silly Height Obsession"

1 ~ Joe Thomas ~ 6.6
2 ~ Ryan Clady ~ 6.6
3 ~ Jake Long ~ 6.7
4 ~ Michael Roos ~ 6.7
5 ~ Sebastian Vollmer ~ 6.8

You were saying??

I specifically wrote "height/arm length", you chose to omit that part because it doesnt support your argument.

Actually, my Argument, stated above, was:

"You ~ and you, alone ~ are obsessed with this."

And then I focused on Height, because, regarding "arm length" ~ did I mention?? ~

"You ~ and you, alone ~ are obsessed with this."

Nice try, though.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Actually, my Argument, stated above, was:

"You ~ and you, alone ~ are obsessed with this."

And then I focused on Height, because, regarding "arm length" ~ did I mention?? ~

"You ~ and you, alone ~ are obsessed with this."

Nice try, though.

These are the reasons why I wasn't keen on Solder in this draft. In multiple games (particularly against Cal), he was caught on his heels far too often. Though the sack numbers weren't bad, he wasn't consistently keeping the pocket clean.

However, I'm trying to suppress my skepticism with the following:

1) The Colorado QB had extreme happy feet and the OL was forced to protect a huge and ill-defined pocket. Not the case with Brady.

2) His issues seemed to be with subtle technique and not anything fundamental that can't be corrected (I was scared to death with Castonzo and whiffing on outside rushers). He seems coachable, has Scar to teach him and Vollmer to act as a role model.

3) That "arc" you mentioned extends forward as well as side-to-side. If Solder maximizes his potential, it will be difficult for bull rushers to get into his pads due to his long reach on his initial punch. At his best, Jonathan Ogden blew up bull rushers before they could get close to him. Not saying Solder will reach that level of productivity...just saying there is a gold standard for taller tackles dominating in every 1-on-1 battle, regardless of the opponent.

I absolutely agree with the points in your post but I'm trying to be positive about Solder's potential and his ability to reach it.

It seems I'm not alone, Brother Metaphors sees the logic behind my opinion as well. Nice Try though Even if I was the only person with that opinion, so what? Is truth determined by how many others agree with you?

 

[Off The Grid]

It seems I'm not alone, Brother Metaphors sees the logic behind my opinion as well.

Even if I was the only person with that opinion, so what? Is truth determined by how many others agree with you?

You seem to be suffering your usual problems with keeping focused.

Allow me:

1 ~ My original point was that it was amusingly hypocritical that you'd call others "obsessed" about Height and Extension when you, and you alone, suffer that condition. As long as I've been here, you've been SCREAMING that height is a detriment to an O Tackle's success in this league, and working yourself into a snot-bubbling LATHER when folks have the temerity to disagree!!

Metaphor vaguely agreeing with some of your points, but also arguing the other side...doesn't come within a LIGHT year of your level of obsession, my friend.

Nice try, though.

2 ~ Doubly amusing, considering how angry you often get with us ignorant masses, is that you couldn't be more wrong.

Despite your hilariously persistent insistence that Dwarfs Rule the Universe ~ that tall height and long arms are actually detrimental to success at O Tackle!! ~ it seems that every soul in the galaxy ~ save yourself ~ is aware that the vast majority of Top Shelf O Tackles are either very tall, or long-armed...or BOTH.

But I didn't even have to bother looking up up arm length to shatter your strange little theory. A quick perusal of heights, alone, suffices to euthanize your bewildering, bizarre notion. This list is slightly subjective, but most will agree on most names:

My Top 10 O Tackles ~ No Particular Order

1 ~ Joe Thomas ~ 6.6
2 ~ Ryan Clady ~ 6.6
3 ~ Jake Long ~ 6.7
4 ~ Michael Roos ~ 6.7
5 ~ Sebastian Vollmer ~ 6.8
6 ~ David Stewart ~ 6.7
7 ~ DBrickashaw Ferguson ~ 6.6
8 ~ Michael Oher ~ 6.4
9 ~ Phil LoadHolt ~ 6.8
10 ~ Marcus McNeill ~ 6.7


So much for Dwarfs ruling the Universe!!

But, hey: If it comforts you to think otherwise...knock yourself out!!

 

[Snake Eyes]

You seem to be suffering your usual problems with keeping focused.

Allow me:

1 ~ My original point was that it was amusingly hypocritical that you'd call others "obsessed" about Height and Extension when you, and you alone, suffer that condition. As long as I've been here, you've been SCREAMING that height is a detriment to an O Tackle's success in this league, and working yourself into a snot-bubbling LATHER when folks have the temerity to disagree!!

Metaphor vaguely agreeing with some of your points, but also arguing the other side...doesn't come within a LIGHT year of your level of obsession, my friend.

Nice try, though.

2 ~ Doubly amusing, considering how angry you often get with us ignorant masses, is that you couldn't be more wrong.

Despite your hilariously persistent insistence that Dwarfs Rule the Universe ~ that tall height and long arms are actually detrimental to success at O Tackle!! ~ it seems that every soul in the galaxy ~ save yourself ~ is aware that the vast majority of Top Shelf O Tackles are either very tall, or long-armed...or BOTH.

But I didn't even have to bother looking up up arm length to shatter your strange little theory. A quick perusal of heights, alone, suffices to euthanize your bewildering, bizarre notion. This list is slightly subjective, but most will agree on most names:

My Top 10 O Tackles ~ No Particular Order

1 ~ Joe Thomas ~ 6.6
2 ~ Ryan Clady ~ 6.6
3 ~ Jake Long ~ 6.7
4 ~ Michael Roos ~ 6.7
5 ~ Sebastian Vollmer ~ 6.8
6 ~ David Stewart ~ 6.7
7 ~ DBrickashaw Ferguson ~ 6.6
8 ~ Michael Oher ~ 6.4
9 ~ Phil LoadHolt ~ 6.8
10 ~ Marcus McNeill ~ 6.7


So much for Dwarfs ruling the Universe!!

But, hey: If it comforts you to think otherwise...knock yourself out!!

- I posted ways how it could both hurt and HELP but you seem to have omitted that part.

- I'm waiting for you to address the examples I mentioned, who have become successful despite having short arms by your standards. Since they contradict your theory it would appear your theory is flawed, one doesnt need long arms to be a successful tackle, that should prompt one to ask 'what does one need'? Anyway, you've ignored this so far and I expect you to continue, and I'm certain you wont disappoint.

- Are you familiar with a "Strawman argument", cause that's what you're making. I never advocated putting a dwarf at tackle, only that putting relatively taller and taller players at tackle leaves them more vulnerable to being bull-rushed. Ever hear scouts and coaches say that "Solder needs to play lower"? There's a reason why, and the taller a guy is the more difficult it is to play lower.

 

[Off The Grid]

Snake!!

I do apologize: I forgot you were there.

You may go.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Snake!!

I do apologize: I forgot you were there.

You may go.

OMG, that was so amazing, that was just like Doc Holliday's line in Tombstone

Anyway, I'll be staying, I rather enjoy your contradiction and emotion filled posts, seriously, where else can one go to see a team's draft selection be described as an "atrocity"? That was absolutely epic!

 

[captain stone]

He's got one of the best OL coaches in the league. He's got superior physical gifts. He's got the willingness to learn. He'll be playing next to an All-Pro LG. Sounds like a recipe for success, don't ya think?

Unless he doesn't play next to an All-Pro LG.

If Bill doesn't sign Mankin$ for this season - and for future seasons,
he'll be making a big mistake.