Patriots sue StubHub

[pats1]

Set aside the legality of scalping and answer me this: Why does it "piss you off" that Chicago-NE tickets sell for what people are willing to pay...? Where's the logic in getting mad at the free enterprise system at work...?

"People are willing to pay?"

Nobody in their right mind would pay $500 for a 300-level seat to a regular season game. The only reason they do is because those are the only seats left (thanks to the scalpers).

It pisses off the consumer when buying the tickets legally costs face value - $49-$125, but buying them from illegal dealers costs $250-$1500. Insane. When one is able to purchase tickets directly the week of the game for face value through Ticketmaster or the TicketExchange, but there's another outlet on the Internet that is selling hundreds of tickets that could be face-value, that pisses the consumer off.

It should piss the Patriots off as well. These scalpers are making money off the Patriots, but there's nothing the team can do about it. The scalpers, by charging absurd amounts for the tickets just because they can, are driving up the market price. But to keep up with that inflation, the Pats would need to obviously make face value the market price of $300 or so. And that would easily piss off the fans, whose incomes aren't keeping up with the amount the tickets are being re-sold for. Through that, the Patriots are losing money and have a right to be pissed off. They're being forced to charge below market price to keep good relations with fans.

 

[PatsFan-NH]

That's an absolutely brilliant point, and it explains why every single Pats STH I know (and I know about 20 of them) wasn't offered any tickets for any of the 4 Super Bowl NE has gone to during the Kraft era. The team scalps the tickets themselves, only through another shill company. It's one of the dirty little secrets.

I worked with a guy whose dad has season tickets. He used to go to all the home games and tell us about it on Monday.

They got super bowl tickets for all of the recent ones. His dad didn't use them and he got them. He said something about a lottery for STH (no details), and I always thought it odd that his father would keep winning every time. Perhaps some STH are more favored than others.

 

[Murphys95]

I worked with a guy whose dad has season tickets. He used to go to all the home games and tell us about it on Monday.

They got super bowl tickets for all of the recent ones. His dad didn't use them and he got them. He said something about a lottery for STH (no details), and I always thought it odd that his father would keep winning every time. Perhaps some STH are more favored than others.

Here's a little perspective on the issue. In January of 1986, Super Bowl tickets were offered to every Patriots season ticket holder who wanted them (no lottery, if you wanted them, you showed up at the box office to buy them). Ironically enough, there were not enough takers so the Pats opened up the sale to the public.

....Supply and demand.

 

[PatsSteve1]

[It pisses off the consumer when buying the tickets legally costs face value - $49-$125, but buying them from illegal dealers costs $250-$1500. Insane. When one is able to purchase tickets directly the week of the game for face value through Ticketmaster or the TicketExchange, but there's another outlet on the Internet that is selling hundreds of tickets that could be face-value, that pisses the consumer off.

* Then they shouldn't buy them. How do consumers have a right to buy tickets to a sold out event at face value? If it's sold out they are shut out except thru someone selling thier tickets.

It should piss the Patriots off as well. These scalpers are making money off the Patriots, but there's nothing the team can do about it. The scalpers, by charging absurd amounts for the tickets just because they can, are driving up the market price.

* The team got the money they wanted for the tickets so why should they be mad? It's not scalpers who drive up the price, it's the people who pay that price. If no one bought those scalped tickets, they wouldn't sell for such high prices.

Frankly, I'm surpised Kraft doesn't go after the guys scalping parking spaces at Gillette. You go to a Rev's game and they cost $15. Then some scalper buys them all up for a Patriots game and the same parking spot costs $35 -

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

wow, i never thought i'd see sports fans arguing in favor of ticket scalping.

capitalism isn't always the best way, and it isn't this perfect system people want to make it to be. The government kills monopolies and restricts trade; it's not like laws restricting capitalism are out of nowhere. besides, sports aren't your run-of-the-mill commodities.

now let's have more people explaining why the Patriots should jack up the ticket prices themselves, the only capitalistic way for them to stop scalping. that's sure to work for everyone involved!

now if only the red sox could care

 

[QuiGon]

"People are willing to pay?"

Nobody in their right mind would pay $500 for a 300-level seat to a regular season game. The only reason they do is because those are the only seats left (thanks to the scalpers).

Well, that's for the free market to decide. What right does the government have dictating what people can or can't pay...? Who are you to tell me that I am not "in my right mind" if I am willing to pay such an amount...?

It pisses off the consumer when buying the tickets legally costs face value - $49-$125, but buying them from illegal dealers costs $250-$1500. Insane.

Well, I agree. It is insane that it is illegal to scalp tickets. It should be a free and open marketplace with market forces determining equilibrium prices. But here's a newsflash that people like you need to realize: For every big ticket game like the Bears or Colts, there are plenty of duds like the Lions or Buccaneers.

It should piss the Patriots off as well. These scalpers are making money off the Patriots, but there's nothing the team can do about it. The scalpers, by charging absurd amounts for the tickets just because they can, are driving up the market price.

You don't seem to know much about how economics works.

But to keep up with that inflation, the Pats would need to obviously make face value the market price of $300 or so. And that would easily piss off the fans, whose incomes aren't keeping up with the amount the tickets are being re-sold for. Through that, the Patriots are losing money and have a right to be pissed off. They're being forced to charge below market price to keep good relations with fans.

You don't seem to know much about how economics works.

 

[QuiGon]

I worked with a guy whose dad has season tickets. He used to go to all the home games and tell us about it on Monday.

They got super bowl tickets for all of the recent ones. His dad didn't use them and he got them. He said something about a lottery for STH (no details), and I always thought it odd that his father would keep winning every time. Perhaps some STH are more favored than others.

I think your friend's dad is telling some pretty tall tales, because the mathematics behind that are infinite improbability. Unless he's a club seat holder - they have guaranteed Super Bowl tickets.

 

[QuiGon]

wow, i never thought i'd see sports fans arguing in favor of ticket scalping.

Well, it's the smart sports fans who know that legalized and open scalping benefits the consumers more than it does the scalpers. The only sports fans that oppose legalized scalping are the fools who think that if scalping is illegal, they will somehow suddenyl have plenty of access to cheap tickets.

capitalism isn't always the best way, and it isn't this perfect system people want to make it to be. The government kills monopolies and restricts trade; it's not like laws restricting capitalism are out of nowhere. besides, sports aren't your run-of-the-mill commodities.

Which is why I make it a point of mentioning that we are talking about a luxury item here. We are not talking about health care, food, shelter, heating oil, medicine, etc.

now let's have more people explaining why the Patriots should jack up the ticket prices themselves, the only capitalistic way for them to stop scalping. that's sure to work for everyone involved!

Well, here's the dirty little secret... the Patriots do scalp tickets. They do it through their authorized, official "travel agency". Just check out how much that agency was charging for Super Bowl tickets a few years ago...

 

[spacecrime]

Well, it's the smart sports fans who know that legalized and open scalping benefits the consumers more than it does the scalpers.

That's what the Cherokee said to Daniel Boone as he was about to scalp him: This benefits you more that it does me

Seriously, there's a reason they call it scalping.

Scalping is legal: I give a guy $1600 for two tickets he paid $99 each for.

Scalping is illegal: The original ticket holder can sell for face value only: I pay $198.

So how does being scalped benefit me more?

This open market setting the price is a bunch of hooey. They people pushing it are the same ones who have been complaining about high Gillette ticket prices. The fact that there is a waiting list of over 50,000 people says that the price of tickets is below market value. If Kraft let the market determine the price, he would keep raising the price until there was no waiting list anymore. If he didn't sell out one year, he'd lower prices. People get on a waiting list to buy, he's raise prices.

Who wants that?

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Get rid of this thread! Let's talk football, not about lawsuits. Sorry Bra!

 

[pats1]

Get rid of this thread! Let's talk football, not about lawsuits. Sorry Bra!

This thread is TIGHT.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Get rid of this thread! Let's talk football, not about lawsuits. Sorry Bra!

Well this thread is about football. It just so happens to be the business side of it that is directly connected to any and all games you watch.

 

[QuiGon]

That's what the Cherokee said to Daniel Boone as he was about to scalp him: This benefits you more that it does me

Seriously, there's a reason they call it scalping.

Scalping is legal: I give a guy $1600 for two tickets he paid $99 each for.

Scalping is illegal: The original ticket holder can sell for face value only: I pay $198.

So how does being scalped benefit me more?

Because you're a fool to think you'll have availability to tickets for $198. If scalping was illegal (and enforced) do you think you're the only one lined up to get those tickets at $198 per pair...? Yeah. Good luck with that. To quote me in a post I wrote ahead of yours:

"The only sports fans that oppose legalized scalping are the fools who think that if scalping is illegal, they will somehow suddenly have plenty of access to cheap tickets."

Scalping is legal: I give a guy $4,000 for two Super Bowl tickets if I want to. I don't give $4,000 for two Super Bowl tickets if I don't want to.

Scalping is illegal: I have no prayer and no chance whatsoever to get Super Bowl tickets and none are made available to me.

You vote a straight line Democratic party ticket, don't you..?

This open market setting the price is a bunch of hooey.

Yeah that whole capitalism thing is just an miserable failure. I think the government should set prices for all items now. PS3...? Illegal to resell..!! Automobiles...? Illegal to resell..!! Tom Brady football cards..? Illegal to resell..!!

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Well, it's the smart sports fans who know that legalized and open scalping benefits the consumers more than it does the scalpers. The only sports fans that oppose legalized scalping are the fools who think that if scalping is illegal, they will somehow suddenyl have plenty of access to cheap tickets.

first off, in spite of your brilliance, you are ignoring option C. you are kind enough to grace us with your genius views on options A and B

A) legal scalping, and
B) illegal scalping as currently occurs

but you make no mention of

C) illegalized scalping with competant enforcement.

I can easily argue that option C is much more beneficial to consumers that either A or B.

You also ignore that our law enforcement is too slowly adapting to the internet. minimizing scalping was much easier 20 years ago when stationing officers outside the stadium was enough to cut down on most scalping. stubhub and other sites have made scalping available to a much wider audience and have carried with them no chance of being prosecuted. Of course scalping thrives in this environment. Your mistake is assuming the environment will not and cannot change.

Oh, what am i thinking? i'm not a smart fan like you so this discussion must obviously be as narrow as you present it.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

nevermind responding to my above thread QuiGon. i'll leave it because my points remain true, but after reading your post responding to spacecrime i realize you are not worth it and are trying to be difficult.

now where's that ignore list again?

 

[QuiGon]

first off, in spite of your brilliance, you are ignoring option C. you are kind enough to grace us with your genius views on options A and B

A) legal scalping, and
B) illegal scalping as currently occurs

I was lumping these two in together. I mean right now it is technically illegal but with no real enforcement it may as well not be.

but you make no mention of

C) illegalized scalping with competant enforcement.

I can easily argue that option C is much more beneficial to consumers that either A or B.

Well, you could make that argument but you'd be wrong.

You might not like the fact that I know more about economics than you do, but fact remains: There are no set of circumstances whatsoever by which consumers (as a group) benefit from a restricted marketplace and/or price fixing for a non-essential good. That's pure and simple Economics 101. A miniscule amount of consumers will benefit - namely those that already have access to tickets. Meanwhile, the rest of us who are 99% of the population will suffer.

Like I said... I ain't making this stuff up. It's all very simple economic theory. You may not like my condescending tone, but everything I have said here is the truth and you've done nothing to counter anything I've said.

 

[pats1]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

POSTED 12:01 a.m. EST; UPDATED 12:45 a.m. EST, November 25, 2006​

MORE ON PATS' SCALPING SUIT​

We've rolled up our sleeves and tracked down some more information regarding the lawsuit filed on Tuesday by the New England Patriots against online ticket scalping company StubHub.​

Okay, actually the stuff kind of fell into our laps but, hey, we take what we can get.​

The action, as we understand it, isn't an effort by the team to attack the near-universal and long-standing practice of people selling tickets to sporting events for value greater than the price printed on the thing. Whether it's a guy with a computer or a laminated piece of cardboard with "I NEED TICKETS" in block letters, someone always will be looking to make a buck (or a few hundred) via the re-selling of seats.​

The Patriots are focusing on a more specific dynamic -- the focused efforts of StubHub to induce season-ticket holders to engage in activities that violate their individual agreements with the franchise.​

Put simply, the folks who have secured the ability to buy tickets to all Patriots home games agree not to re-sell the tickets at an increased price. For individuals who can't use their tickets to a given game, the team maintains a waiting list of folks who can acquire the tickets at face value, plus a relatively small service charge from Ticketmaster.​

StubHub, we're told, was placed on notice of these contractual rights and responsibilities, yet has continued to induce season ticket holders to breach their agreements via specific advertisements in publications like the Boston Globe, which ads contain messages like "Are you a Patriots season-ticket holder who can't sell your tickets?" ​

The prevalence of the advertising efforts caused the organization to become concerned that the franchise is condoning the practice. The other problem is that some of the tickets bought and sold through StubHub are counterfeit. Per a source with knowledge of the situation, roughly 30 tickets per game purchased via StubHub end up being phony. And although StubHub eventually refunds the money, the consumers typically must jump through multiple hoops to make it happen.​

Thus, one of the claims in the lawsuit is that StubHub has tortiously interfered with the team's relationship with its season-ticket holders, and the primary goal is to get the company to stop the practice. Any damages recovered will go to the Patriots Charitable Foundation, not to the team itself.​

With all that said, the decision of the Patriots to pursue the action against StubHub creates a real risk that the media will begin to scrutinize more carefully the involvement of teams in the scalping of tickets -- including the widespread manner in which some teams turn profits on the sale of Super Bowl seats. But it appears that StubHub backed the Patriots into a corner on this one, and it should prompt any NFL team that maintains a relationship with StubHub to re-examine the wisdom of dealing with a company that might have provoked a course of action that, depending on how the dominoes fall, could eventually make it harder to realize those late January windfalls.​

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

If Kraft really cared about the season tix holders he would not facilitate massive sales of tickets that knowingly end up with ticket brokers. He is so controlling of STs sold to INDIVIDUALS, restricting their ability to pass them on, etc. such that equal care should be given to blocks of seats that ALWAYS end up in the hands of favored ticket brokers.

Secondly, Kraft should do what the Phins and others do. Set up a public website where ST holders can sell their unused seats to the public at whatever price the market would support. That would help ST holders who could not attend certain games. If brokers bought some of these seats, c'est la vie. Note that the ST holder assumes risk of losing their seats should the buyer misbehave.

 

[PatsFan37]

At the risk of getting stampeded by the rush to judgment, it seems the Patriots are trying to keep season's tickets as a way to see the game rather than a way to make money.

Ownership of season's tickets is a kind of 'economic rent' but it's a pretty strained analogy. The Patriots want to spend this 'factor of production' in two ways: (1) to make lots of money on a few expensive seats so they can (2) keep other seats inexpensive for the phalanx of loyal fans who help create a home-team advantage and an atmosphere of appreciation for the team.

When season ticket holders can't use their tickets, the Patriots want the tickets to go to fans at face value, in the interest of fairness. Will people continue to scam tickets? Sure. But the actions of the organization to control scamming means people who invest time (waiting in line, watching the websites) are more likely to get the tickets than those with money. By trying to limit sales to 4 tickets per game and 8 tickets per season, they're trying to get rid of the people who buy in quantity so they can scalp.

The key word is trying. It might not always work, but they're willing to spend money and go to court to make it happen. That all seems reasonable to me.

By encouraging STH's to circumvent the rules, StubHub destroys the atmosphere the Patriots are trying to create.

For all the things the Pats do that pisses off a few of you (not enough bathrooms, parking is expensive, etc.) you'd be making a mistake to miss their overall goals.

 

[PatsFan37]

Secondly, Kraft should do what the Phins and others do. Set up a public website where ST holders can sell their unused seats to the public at whatever price the market would support. That would help ST holders who could not attend certain games. If brokers bought some of these seats, c'est la vie. Note that the ST holder assumes risk of losing their seats should the buyer misbehave.

Wrong on both counts.

There is a public website, it's patriots.com (tough to find, eh?) . Click on tickets (another tough one). TicketMaster runs a service called TicketExchange where ST holders can do exactly what you suggest. Please read this section where it says
Under this service, the selling ticket holder will not be held responsible for the conduct of individuals who purchase tickets.

You should check the facts before making this kind of statement, don't you think?

That the tickets MUST be sold at face value is the right thing to do. If the Pats don't want profiteering, they certainly can't encourage it on the own website. If you want to scalp your tickets at a profit, put on a scruffy coat and stand outside the stadium in the rain and sell them one or two at a time.