I Don't Get It

[Kontradiction]

Re: I Dont Get It

So basically no matter what happens he's in a no-win situation with you? Either he's over the hill and it was a good decision to trade, or he wasn't trying hard on the Patriots and it was a good decision to trade.

Just admit you're a Moss hater Kool-Aid drinker no matter what, and stop pretending you're being objective about this.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's either he was dogging it with us, or he was trying as hard as he could and just couldn't get separation like he used to. That doesn't mean that we should have automatically traded him, or that it was even a good decision to do so.

As for the Kool-Aid drinker part, you're pretty hilariously misinformed. I'll just chalk it up to the fact that you don't really read my posts or, if you do, your reading comprehension is on the same level of a chimpanzee. I've made my feelings on this trade pretty clear at least 50 times on this forum, but I guess I might as well do it again...

1. I staunchly supported giving him an extension in the offseason.

2. We didn't do what I wanted in the offseason. What I wanted was the same thing that Moss wanted. It's not the first thing this has happened. However, I can understand why the team traded him.

Now, given what we've seen so far this year, one could chalk it up to either one of two scenarios. The first is that Moss has lost more than just one step and can't get separation like he did in 2007-2008 against single and/or double coverage. If that's the case, then it still wasn't a good idea to trade him seeing as he was still the best receiver on this team regardless. If that's NOT the case, then the only other option is that he was giving less than 100% effort out there with us, which is certainly a possibility given his past.

Now, that's about the only two circumstances that I can think of. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with another circumstance that could exist with Mr. Moss through the first four games of the season?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: I Dont Get It

Moss lost the Jets game for us, and then after that Brady didn't even trust him enough to throw him the ball, and the malcontent got traded like he wanted.

So here in Pats fantasyworld, all the clueless, whiny fanboys cry a river and bad mouth Kraft and BB and everybody except Moss.

Brady certainly contributed to that loss with some absolutely god awful throws.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

Why do they never say it about anyone else? They were not the only ones who said it last year.
You seem to just want to dismiss anything that doesnt fit your viewpoint.

Ask them not me, I'm not in their friggin minds. I'll believe Brady and guys on the Patriots over them though. I don't use Bailey and Davis' words to prove Moss' effort, so I'm not just "dismissing" everything that goes against my position. That is precisely what YOU are doing though.

I go by logic mainly here, and logic says that BB doesn't play a guy that lacks effort. He doesn't play them virtually every offensive snap and then turn around and trade them.

Disingenous? That is his production.

Disingenuous... AT BEST.

The Jets are part of the schedule.

He didn't have good production against the Jets in 08, 09 or 10. Possibly they have a good defense?

If Brady hadn't lost faith in his effort, he would have gotten the ball.

TERRIBLE logic. Lookup the word gameplan and defense.

The gameplan doesnt say dont throw to Moss, Moss not getting open dictates that.

He was "open" on more than 1 occasion Monday. In fact there was a play that was replayed on Monday night that showed Moss blow by Davis, who was playing VERY deep.

I could care less what the media says. It is obvious to anyone who isnt starting from a predisposed defensive of Moss perspective that he gave up on the team.

It's obvious from any objective point of view that he did not. Curran and Davis are liars when they say Moss gave great effort all game in Miami, but Revis and Cromartie are honest when they say he gives up. Whatever Andy.

Moss was a key to the offense from 07-09.
In 2010 he was essentially kicked off the team. Sure his attitude was fine and gave 100%/

Essentially kicked off the team lol. He was traded. So Seymour was essentially kicked off the team too then, I suppose our defense has been better without him

 

[USCPatriot]

Re: I Dont Get It

Moss lost the Jets game for us, and then after that Brady didn't even trust him enough to throw him the ball, and the malcontent got traded like he wanted.

So here in Pats fantasyworld, all the clueless, whiny fanboys cry a river and bad mouth Kraft and BB and everybody except Moss.

WOW! That is a complete BS remark, BRADY is the one that lost us that game, he COMPLETELY overthrew Moss the first time, he didn't even have a chance to catch that thing. The second time he through it into double coverage which Moss had to come back and try to get it. It's called "not forcing it into double coverage", Brady was doing it obviously because Revis went out and thought they could take advantage of Cromartie on Moss. He underestimated Cromartie.

So here in real life, all the clueless, whiny fanboys cry a river and badmouth Moss instead of looking at the facts at blaming the accountable people.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

WOW! That is a complete BS remark, BRADY is the one that lost us that game, he COMPLETELY overthrew Moss the first time, he didn't even have a chance to catch that thing.

Moss was at the 40-35 when Brady made the decision and threw the ball. Cromartie was a half step ahead and still copleting his hip turn. Moss' change for the ball was to outrun a corner he had an edge on (completing the hip turn makes up the half step)

The second time he through it into double coverage which Moss had to come back and try to get it. It's called "not forcing it into double coverage", Brady was doing it obviously because Revis went out and thought they could take advantage of Cromartie on Moss. He underestimated Cromartie.

Wasn't double coverage. The safety that Int'd it wasn't near the play until it was tipped in the air by Moss.

So here in real life, all the clueless, whiny fanboys cry a river and badmouth Moss instead of looking at the facts at blaming the accountable people.

Do you believe that Moss gave 100% and was committed to the team in 2010? And if so why did his production drop to 45% of what it had been, and why did BB not want him around any more?

 

[Ring 6]

Re: I Dont Get It

Ask them not me, I'm not in their friggin minds. I'll believe Brady and guys on the Patriots over them though. I don't use Bailey and Davis' words to prove Moss' effort, so I'm not just "dismissing" everything that goes against my position. That is precisely what YOU are doing though.

I guess everyone is just picking on poor Randy.

I go by logic mainly here, and logic says that BB doesn't play a guy that lacks effort. He doesn't play them virtually every offensive snap and then turn around and trade them.

And logic says he doesnt trade away his #1 weapon for a throw away pick.

Disingenuous... AT BEST.

That is his production. Just because it refutes your position doesnt make it disingenuous. In fact I compared it to his other years.

He didn't have good production against the Jets in 08, 09 or 10. Possibly they have a good defense?

And those games are in the stats from those seasons as well.

TERRIBLE logic. Lookup the word gameplan and defense.

So, all of a sudden the team decided that Moss was useless and it had nothing to do with effort?
wanna buy a bridge?

He was "open" on more than 1 occasion Monday. In fact there was a play that was replayed on Monday night that showed Moss blow by Davis, who was playing VERY deep.

Where was the ball when that happened?

It's obvious from any objective point of view that he did not. Curran and Davis are liars when they say Moss gave great effort all game in Miami, but Revis and Cromartie are honest when they say he gives up. Whatever Andy.

But you are saying exactly the opposite, so your point would be no better.

Essentially kicked off the team lol. He was traded. So Seymour was essentially kicked off the team too then, I suppose our defense has been better without him

Moss was traded for next to nothing.
Seymour was traded for what may ultimately be one of the most valuable draft picks the Patriots have ever made.
It looks like it could be a top 5 pick after the rookie cap goes in. Before the rookie cap the Patriots would not want a top 5 pick because of the excessive cost. The Patriots got what may be a top 5 pick that will be cost effective. In the end that trade was a homerun.
Fior Moss they get a pick probably in the 90s to add to 5 other picks in the first 3 rounds on a team that is overloaded with young players.
That was the least necesary 3rd round pick we have ever acquired, but keep kidding yourself/

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

I guess everyone is just picking on poor Randy.

Are you kidding me? I've already listed a dozen people saying OPPOSITE things. You list 2 idiots on the Jets saying he "dogged" it in 1 half of 1 game as your proof that he quit on the team to get traded.

Anyway I'm tired of your act, you ignore all logic and reasoning and claim videos show something you've made up in your mind alone. Your logic is atrocious and I'm done pointing that out.

 

[USCPatriot]

Re: I Dont Get It

Moss was at the 40-35 when Brady made the decision and threw the ball. Cromartie was a half step ahead and still copleting his hip turn. Moss' change for the ball was to outrun a corner he had an edge on (completing the hip turn makes up the half step)

Cromartie was ALWAYS one step ahead of Moss, Moss mistimed the ball obviously cause Tom had been under and overthrowing him ALL day. Which caused him to slow down then have to speed back up.

Wasn't double coverage. The safety that Int'd it wasn't near the play until it was tipped in the air by Moss.

Yea, your right. I went back and watched he video, the INT was Moss's fault BUT he went up for a circus catch and ALMOST came down with it.


Do you believe that Moss gave 100% and was committed to the team in 2010? And if so why did his production drop to 45% of what it had been, and why did BB not want him around any more?

No, I don't believe he gave 100% but I DO believe he was COMMITTED to this team. He went to practice, was never late, was a leader in the locker room, that's more than Logan Mankins can say. If you think he was giving 45%, that's just astounding to me. So tell me, what is Terrance Wheatley giving? 100%? If so then MAN, I would rather have Asante Samuel give 10% rather than wheatley's 100%. What about Crable, McKenzie or even Wilhite? Those are some sorry 100%.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Re: I Dont Get It

Is the moral of this thread that someone was wrong or in the wrong?

Is the moral of this thread that a rash decision was made?

All signs point to there were discussions ... perhaps as early as the beginning of camp or sooner regarding Randy and his future with the team.

Randy and Bill supposedly had amicable and professional discussions perhaps even bypassing Randy's agent on some matters.

Bill could not give Randy the assurances he was looking for.

The team is preparing for this season and a possible lockout next season.

Players who have probable value up through and to 2012 get new deals at the right price.

Players who may not have value in 2012 will not be able to leverage any 2011 value they may have.


That's the ticket andy ... 2011 leverage gets you nothing because Bill has enough draft picks to replace anything he may lose for 2011. The draft picks have negated any leverage a player with an expiring contract may have.

All the rest makes for interesting speculative discussion.

BTW ... Moss has broken down towards the end of the last 2 seasons.

The value Randy had last week means nothing for the value he may have in December. The cold weather and an older body have contributed to Randy not even having leverage through playoffs this year.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: I Dont Get It

Why would players say that about Moss but never about anyone else if they are just making it up?
Moss wasnt any more heavily covered this year than any other year.
From 07-09 per every 4 games Moss averaged:

20.8 catches
314 yards
4 TDs

This year it was
9
135
3

That is less than 45% of the catches for less than 45% of the yards that he has average as a Patriot.
Are you seriously saying that defenses just decided to cover him tighter after those 3 years?

I don't get these people. This year, we have weapons that we didn't have last year. The ball's bring spread out more than it used to be, so of course Randy's stats were down. Everyone's were. Welker's on pace to have the worst year of his Patriots tenure too; if that's all that it takes to declare that someone's not trying, then when do we string him up for not giving 100%?

 

[JMarr]

Re: I Dont Get It

I can not accept that 'out of respect for Randy' the Patriots decided to trade away and all-pro player.
I also cannot accept that Moss' production would be less than half what it normally is, and also below the level of a bad starting WR, just because the Patriots decided they didn't want to throw to a top 5 guy and would rather throw to first year players instead.

Well, that just makes you one hell of a closed-minded and stubborn person, doesn't it? :rocker:

 

[eagle eye]

Re: I Dont Get It

OK. Thank you for the blind love of Randy viewpoint.

Just a qick question. If Moss gave the same effort this year as every other year, why did Belichick not want him around?
Ar you sayng Belichick is one of this people who did not deserve to watch him?

By the way no one is crticizing the Randy Moss that was here from 07-09, but if you saw the same player on the field this year, you are not being honest with yourself.

Are you saying he didn't even try to make that awesome one handed grab against the Jets? Like if a guy is doggin' it he doesn't make that type of catch or do you disagree with that.

Randy wanted out because the Patriots were using him as a decoy and thats not good for him in a contract year. He wants the opportunity to show his worth for a new contract wherever that might be and he was going to have that opportunity this year with the Patriots. Or at least thats how I'm reading it.

Everybody said he was a great locker room presence and a real hard worker. I remember soemebody coming on here and saying that its easy to think that Moss is doggin' it because he runs so gracefully that you think he is not all out when in fact he is.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Re: I Dont Get It

Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's either he was dogging it with us, or he was trying as hard as he could and just couldn't get separation like he used to.

Now, that's about the only two circumstances that I can think of. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with another circumstance that could exist with Mr. Moss through the first four games of the season?

1. Your 2 conclusions, like I said, are basically a no-win situation for Randy Moss no matter what he does in Minnesota. In your eyes if he plays well in Minnesota, it's proof that he didn't try the first 4 games as a Patriot. If he plays poorly, then it's proof he's over the hill and lost a step.

2. The more likely thing going on has nothing to do with Randy Moss's work ethic, any supposed diminished skill set, or supposedly being an under the radar locker room cancer. It's far more likely that the Patriots have made a major shift in offensive scheme/philosophy, as evidenced by the fact that they currently use multiple TE sets more than anyone in the NFL, twice as many as the next highest team. Moss is valued less by the team because of this lower reliance on the vertical spread offense. They are not willing to pay him for his value this year, and do not want to resign him. They followed the same basic process they used to justify trading Richard Seymour last year.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: I Dont Get It

1. Your 2 conclusions, like I said, are basically a no-win situation for Randy Moss no matter what he does in Minnesota. In your eyes if he plays well in Minnesota, it's proof that he didn't try the first 4 games as a Patriot. If he plays poorly, then it's proof he's over the hill and lost a step.

2. The more likely thing going on has nothing to do with Randy Moss's work ethic, any supposed diminished skill set, or supposedly being an under the radar locker room cancer. It's far more likely that the Patriots have made a major shift in offensive scheme/philosophy, as evidenced by the fact that they currently use multiple TE sets more than anyone in the NFL, twice as many as the next highest team. Moss is valued less by the team because of this lower reliance on the vertical spread offense. They are not willing to pay him for his value this year, and do not want to resign him. They followed the same basic process they used to justify trading Richard Seymour last year.

Not to mention getting Tate and others more reps helps this team in the future, for example next year.

 

[Fencer]

Re: I Dont Get It

At the risk of starting another Moss thread, the thing I cannot understand is the pleasant attitude toward Moss. I don't understand why people who are unhappy that he is no longer here aren't plssed at the reason he is not here: Randy Moss.
His entire season to date was an attempt to not be part of this team. His production was less than half of his production level since he has been here. Isn't it obvious he quit on the team?
Moss was traded becaue he made himself unwanted on the football team. The 3rd round pick was just what someone would pay to get him instead of waiting in line for waivers.
Randy Moss was never going to give an all out effort to the 2010 Patriots. Any anger for what might have been with a productive Moss as part of this team should be directed at the cause of that failure, and it is 100% Randy Moss.

To answer your question directly -- it's all about a football judgment. If Randy tried his hardest, then anything else he did is protected by the free-speech and no-slavery clauses in the Constitution. Boo him if you like, but he was within his rights as a man. But if he didn't try his hardest, he's a boo-worthy bum and actually a lot worse. And it's hard to read whether Moss is dogging it or not. Even at his best, he creates the illusion of dogging it and then, on some plays, makes the mistake of turning the illusion into reality. So judging whether he's more consistently dogging it is a tough call to make.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Re: I Dont Get It

There's a huge double standard in the NFL that nobody seems to talk about.

Teams can cut players whenever they want.

But when a player asks for a raise/extension or doesn't want to play for a particular team anymore, he's the bad guy.

Moss should've been paid last season and should've retired as a Patriot.

 

[BritPat]

Re: I Dont Get It

Andy, you're one of my favourite posters on here, but I think you're wrong about #81. I don't think he quit at all, certainly not in the Jets game. In the second half on Monday night he was continually blowing by Davies but the ball simply wasn't going his way.

I think the mutual parting of ways is exactly that - BB has decided the offense needs to go one way, which is back to how it was spreading the ball around etc, and Randy feels he wants to be the focus of the offense.

Good luck to #81, I wish him all the best, starting tomorrow.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Re: I Dont Get It

I remember when Moss first came here. There was a lot of excitement, but a whole bunch of trepidation. There were MANY (myself included), that were saying "Let's take a flyer on him for a year" but given his history of shutting down and playing like crap when he wasn't happy, there were also those demanding the "if we do this, BB needs to be on top of it and send him packing at the first sign of trouble".

Get what folks....... That's exactly what happened, only 3 years later then we though it might. Forgotten in all the great stuff he did for us, let's not forget that the "tiger doesn't change its stripes", and Moss is just being Moss

....... and BB just did what most of us cautioned he do back in 2007 when we first brought him in on a sweatheart deal. Dump him at the first sign of trouble.

Thanks Bill. Some of us appreciate you.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: I Dont Get It

1. Your 2 conclusions, like I said, are basically a no-win situation for Randy Moss no matter what he does in Minnesota. In your eyes if he plays well in Minnesota, it's proof that he didn't try the first 4 games as a Patriot. If he plays poorly, then it's proof he's over the hill and lost a step.

It's not a no-win situation. I said nothing about only playing well. What I said is if he goes to New York, blows the doors in off the Jets (2007 style) and smokes double coverage then it's more than likely he was mailing it in here. When here through the first four games this season, Moss had trouble beating single coverage, much less double coverage. If he can suddenly do it in New York with an alarming amount of ease, then you wouldn't agree that something's afoot? On the flip side, if he comes in and plays poorly, gets lost in double coverage, and is unable to beat single coverage on either one of the worst CB in the league, or a CB coming off of a hamstring injury on a consistent basis, then it's more than likely that his skills have dimished more than thought.

2. The more likely thing going on has nothing to do with Randy Moss's work ethic, any supposed diminished skill set, or supposedly being an under the radar locker room cancer. It's far more likely that the Patriots have made a major shift in offensive scheme/philosophy, as evidenced by the fact that they currently use multiple TE sets more than anyone in the NFL, twice as many as the next highest team. Moss is valued less by the team because of this lower reliance on the vertical spread offense. They are not willing to pay him for his value this year, and do not want to resign him. They followed the same basic process they used to justify trading Richard Seymour last year.

I'm not buying this. People keep referencing that the Patriots are going into more two TE sets. While this is true, they are also justifying the Moss move to help get back to a ball control offense. What these people, people like you, forget is that this team is in the top five of time of posession this season. Last season, with Moss on board and two TE's that are not on the same level as the two we have now, the team led the entire league throughout the whole season in time of posession. So, with Moss, they were the best ball control offense in the league. I don't see any reason why BB thought that he should trade Moss simply because of that. Especially after the 1/4 mark of the season. And, while you talk about a shift in philosophy, I would like to ask you how many TD's Moss had while here this year? If the philosophy shifted so much, why was Moss the primary scoring target for this team through the air? Why were some of those TD's strikes to the intermediate level of the field? Is the team interested in going towards a pound the rock, ball control style of offense? I think they are. However, I don't think BB would have traded Moss THIS SEASON, a trade which clearly doesn't put the team ahead of where it was WITH one of the greatest of all time at WR, unless something was going on behind the scenes.

Also, since you are clearly convinced that this move was due to a shift in offensive philosophy, then answer me this: most people knew that the team was shifting it's philosophy in the offseason. This is a fact. If people on this board knew it, then we can assume that the coaching staff knew it. If that's so, then why isn't the trade made in the offseason?

Of course, I fully don't expect an answer to the above question...

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: I Dont Get It

Andy, you're one of my favourite posters on here, but I think you're wrong about #81. I don't think he quit at all, certainly not in the Jets game. In the second half on Monday night he was continually blowing by Davies but the ball simply wasn't going his way.

That's simply incorrect.