Clay Matthews: The Gift That Keeps On Giving

[Ochmed Jones]

My hope, of course, is that Cunningham is the real deal, and that Coach Bill The Mad has a Master Plan that, a year hence, brings Robert Quinn HOME.

I am done beating my head against the wall trying to figure out my BB has passed on literally hundreds of talented 3-4 OLB's in the past 6 drafts or so.

But if I had to pick two telltale reasons it would be:

1.) BB prefers veterans at that position and will not tolerate rookie mistakes at a key position and

2.) BB does not have any young talent in the funnel because either a.) he thinks young pass rushers can not develop as understudies or b.) he doubts his coaching staff's ability to "coach up" young pass rushers. especially considering where we usually pick, theose players available will have a wart or two.

As for Cunningham, I saw him at TC when I was there and I think he has the quickest first step of all the OLB's on the roster. However, he is also the weakest by far. I think he gets exposed in the preseason as a weak run defender and teams will run right over him.

However as a third and long situational pass rusher, especially if lined up wide, he could add value to the team.

In summary, Cunnngham is a band aid on a grand canyon sized wound and I would rather have had Mathews. Although one freak injury can change everything in a heartbeat in the NFL.

 

[Sicilian]

Put another way ~ and to echo your point ~ it's all well and fine to parlay Picks so well that we develop exceptional Depth of Talent on our roster...But it would be folly, indeed, to do so if the result is to ensure, in the years ahead, that we constantly make the playoffs, but just as constantly fall short in the Big Games, due to a persistently pathetic Pass Rush.

Just because, traditionally, OLB's are among the sack leaders in the NFL, does not mean that pass rush comes exclusively from OLB, or even predominantly due to talent on the outside. Pressure (not sacks), is generated a number of ways, including the DE, interior linemen, ILBs, Safties, CB, and scheme. It can come from quick pressure, or good coverage. It can come from reaching the QB, or just generally making him uncomfortable.

The point is, while it can be frustrating to not have the elite talent at OLB we had in McGinest, Vrabel, Colvin, and year one of Thomas, getting value out of the picks ensures that we have strength and depth (almost as important) in every other area of the defense. In our scheme, OLB is important but not as much as NT, and arguably equal (or perhaps less important) than DE and ILB. Strong safety play is hugely important as well, though I would probably value an OLB higher personally.

No one position on the defense is going to single-handedly make this team a non-contender, with the exception of maybe NT.

 

[Off The Grid]

Just because, traditionally, OLB's are among the sack leaders in the NFL, does not mean that pass rush comes exclusively from OLB, or even predominantly due to talent on the outside. Pressure (not sacks), is generated a number of ways, including the DE, interior linemen, ILBs, Safties, CB, and scheme. It can come from quick pressure, or good coverage. It can come from reaching the QB, or just generally making him uncomfortable.

I think all that is pretty obvious, don't you?

My Chess Analogy was not to suggest that OLBs are the most important part of the team, but, rather, to contrast the potential impact of Matthews, in particular, with the other players who we've parlayed him into.

My point is that the OLBs ARE highly integral to the prospective success of this team.

And if you watched the Colt and Saint games of 2010 ~ in stark contrast to our EPIC conquest of the Colts in the Divisionals in 2004, when we had McGinest, Vrabel, AND Colvin at the height of their powers!! ~ it should be Crystal Clear...what is MISSING.

 

[mgteich]

The number of trades make this whole analysis complicated. However, let's revisit.

1) We had pick #23 didn't we, rather than 19. We traded down to #26 and secured the pick #162.
2) We traded the 26 and 162 for 41 which turned out to be Butler, but could just have easily been Brace since we also had 40 from Oakland. Belichick wasn't about to lose Butler. Personally, I would have jumped on Bulter at 34. We also ended up with Jax's 2010 #2, #83 which turned out to be and a 7th which turned out to be Edelman.

WOULD IT HAVE SO WRONG TO USE THE
26 on Matthews
40 on Butler and the
162 on Edelman

There is no question that Belichick got three players for the first rounder, as one would expect. Would I preferred Tate, Brace and one our 2010 seconds for a top OLB prospect? Would that be so aweful to contemplate?

The bottom line is that Belichick traded a 2009 1st for 2009 2nd, a 2009 3rd and a 2010 2nd. Was it a great trade? I guess so if Belichick couldn't find an OLB of high enough value.
===========

BOTTOM LINE
In 2009, we had a need for developmental linebackers. We passed at 26 and we passed at 34. Instead we drafted Chung, Brace, Tate and one of 2010 2nds. Call him Cunningham, effectively delaying the drafting of an OLB by one year. Was this great? Was it terrible? Was this so, so? I'm not sure. I don't know why you are.

I'd rather have a redraft of pick 26 and pick 34, wouldn't you? Did we really ger maximum value with Chung, Brace, Tate and a 2010 second?

When I first started this thread, I had gotten crossed up in the maze of trades and mistakenly thought that the book wasn't yet closed on that pick. That was the impetus for the thread start. I didn't intend it to be a referendum on Matthews per se -- more of a reminder to those still fuming that the Patriots passed up on Matthews that there would be other holes to fill if they hadn't.

So let's tackle it this way: if you'd still rather they had drafted Matthews at #19, how would you approach the roster spots currently filled by Butler, Tate, Edelman and Gronkowski?

Keep in mind the way the absence of those draftees might have affected other moves. E.g. if they didn't have the extra 2nd-round pick available for Gronk, they'd presumably have to use one of their other top picks on a TE -- you can't count on Hernandez being around in the 4th. Etc.

 

[Off The Grid]

I think it would be presumptuous to assume that we would've drafted Edelman, regardless. After all: we only have so many picks.

Even so: it would be equally presumptuous to assume that we would NOT have drafted Edelman: It's food for thought, is what it is, part of the overall Tapestry of Bill the Mad's Record.

***

I think it's fair to say that Coach Bill II is two things:

1 ~ Far and Away the greatest Coach in the game AS WELL as the greatest Trader of Picks.

2 ~ INSANE. His persistent neglect of ILB from 2005 to 2009, and that of OLB from 2009...and counting...and in the face of HORRIFYING Waste at RB, WR, TE, and, again: TIGHT END...Can ONLY be explained by Insanity.

Hey. I'll TAKE the Insanity, as it's part of the package.

I propose, merely, to call it as it IS.

***

The IMPORT of a Defender, it seems to me, is directly proportional to his Proximity to the FootBall at the time of the Snap.

Nose Tackles are the most important Element of a 3-4 Defense. That SHOULD go without saying.

But my point is this: The Front 7 wields MUCH more Impact on the outcome of a Game ~ or a Season ~ than does the Secondary, hence the CRITICAL importance of OLBs.

...As anyone who witnessed the Patriots marching to Super Bowl Glory in 2004 ought remember...considering we did so with McGinest, Vrabel, and Colvin at the HEIGHT of their aggregate Power...and with a Secondary consisting of Rodney Harrison, a box of Kleenex, a spool of Duct Tape, and a rolled up Newspaper.

***

My position on all this "Queen versus 2 Knights + 2 Bishops" bit is: he could've and he should've done BOTH...But if he DOES manage to do so, one year, hence, by drafting Quinn ~ and Heyward + Dareus!! ~ and goes on to lead us to FRESH Super Bowl Glory in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015...then I'll probably get over my initial disappointment!!

 

[Ochmed Jones]

My position on all this "Queen versus 2 Knights + 2 Bishops" bit is: he could've and he should've done BOTH...But if he DOES manage to do so, one year, hence, by drafting Quinn ~ and Heyward + Dareus!! ~ and goes on to lead us to FRESH Super Bowl Glory in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015...then I'll probably get over my initial disappointment!!

Do you really expect BB to take Heyward? How many Ohio State players has BB ever drafted? There is something about Tressel's defense that BB just does not like and because of that, he has a hard time projecting Tressel's players in our defense.

Dareus is going to need a huge year this year and he has to dfo it lined up next to Chapman.

What about Romeus from Pitt?

What about Bailey from Miami?

Both seem like perfect BB type players.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

How many Ohio State players has BB ever drafted? There is something about Tressel's defense that BB just does not like and because of that, he has a hard time projecting Tressel's players in our defense.
.

Zero per NFL.com draft tracker.. Last two Pats players drafted out of Ohio State were both pre-BB, Terry Glenn and Andy Katzenmoyer...'nuf said.

 

[Off The Grid]

Do you really expect BB to take Heyward? How many Ohio State players has BB ever drafted? There is something about Tressel's defense that BB just does not like and because of that, he has a hard time projecting Tressel's players in our defense.

Dareus is going to need a huge year this year and he has to do it lined up next to Chapman.

What about Romeus from Pitt?

What about Bailey from Miami?

Both seem like perfect BB type players.

Expect him to? Nah, can't say I do, for the reasons you just argued, and argued well.

What ABOUT Romeus??

Sir, that would be BEAUTIFULL.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Still think it was a good idea passing on Matthews? That would be 6 sacks in two games on top of 10 last year. How's Butler doing?

 

[jsull87]

Still think it was a good idea passing on Matthews? That would be 6 sacks in two games on top of 10 last year. How's Butler doing?

didn't realise this thread was a butler vs clay mathews thread. Some people just miss the point.

it's Mathews vs Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman, and (97% of) Rob Gronkowski

Now whether you choose one option or the other is fine but let's compare the 2 situations for what they are.

I just find it funny all the people who think they know better because they said draft clay mathews because he was the only recognisable OLB they knew in the draft where is the smugness of (probably the same) people who like me (i can admit it) were gagging for us to draft vernon gholston as the next best thing in pass rushing for the pats?

 

[captain stone]

I admit, I did not during the draft process envision Clay Matthews becoming a double-digit-sack 3-4 OLB .
In fact, I did not think he was much more than a blown-up (the Brian Cushing way?) Strong Safety who would play as a coverage OLB for a 4-3 defense.

Bill gets no grief from me for trading down from 23. I would've done the same thing.

Now, trading 47 & his 4th-rounder & his 5th-rounder to weird Uncle Al, just to move up to 41 to select Brace instead of Connor Barwin, is another matter entirely...

 

[Off The Grid]

I take a back seat to NO man in my admiration for the Ferocity, the Violence, and the FirePower of Clay Matthews!!

I was SCREAMING for us to draft him in 2009...

But let me be the first to say, and to say it explicitly:

When all is said and done, I believe that The Clay Matthews Trade will go down as One of the Biggest Heists in HISTORY!! :rocker:

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I take a back seat to NO man in my admiration for the Ferocity, the Violence, and the FirePower of Clay Matthews!!

I was SCREAMING for us to draft him in 2009...

But let me be the first to say, and to say it explicitly:

When all is said and done, I believe that The Clay Matthews Trade will go down as One of the Biggest Heists in HISTORY!! :rocker:

Heist for whom? Green Bay?

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

didn't realise this thread was a butler vs clay mathews thread. Some people just miss the point.

it's Mathews vs Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman, and (97% of) Rob Gronkowski

Now whether you choose one option or the other is fine but let's compare the 2 situations for what they are.

I just find it funny all the people who think they know better because they said draft clay mathews because he was the only recognisable OLB they knew in the draft where is the smugness of (probably the same) people who like me (i can admit it) were gagging for us to draft vernon gholston as the next best thing in pass rushing for the pats?

Matthews is dominating at a position we desperately need. Maybe we shouldn't be gloating about how good of a trade it was.

 

[fester]

I admit, I did not during the draft process envision Clay Matthews becoming a double-digit-sack 3-4 OLB .
In fact, I did not think he was much more than a blown-up (the Brian Cushing way?) Strong Safety who would play as a coverage OLB for a 4-3 defense.

Bill gets no grief from me for trading down from 23. I would've done the same thing.

Now, trading 47 & his 4th-rounder & his 5th-rounder to weird Uncle Al, just to move up to 41 to select Brace instead of Connor Barwin, is another matter entirely...

Given that Brace looks like a starting DE this year (see his snap count v. Jets) and Barwin flashed some promise last year and is able to do nothing this year, that trade does not look that bad right now.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Given that Brace looks like a starting DE this year (see his snap count v. Jets) and Barwin flashed some promise last year and is able to do nothing this year, that trade does not look that bad right now.

Or given the Jets tremndous success running off tackle, maybe the trade is looking worse than ever.

 

[Defsoul]

Or given the Jets tremndous success running off tackle, maybe the trade is looking worse than ever.

How can you fault Brace? He wasn't on the field when the Jets were running all over our nickel and dime defense. You should blame Wright and Wilfork for the Jets success, not Brace.