Cassel/Vrabel trade revisited

[CanadianPat'sFan]

1 SB Appearance and 4 NFC Championships in the past decade and yeah,I think he has a decent shot...not to mention of what he could do with an under performing Redskins team for the next few years.

If he takes the Redskins to the SB he has a good shot,If he wins the SB with them then pencil him in.

As of RIGHT NOW? McNabb is not a HOFer and just outside the bubble of Favre,Manning and Brady ...BUT the next 3 or 4 years of continued productivity and winning will certainly up his chances and I think he will do extremely well under the guidance of Shanahan who is a better coach than Reid.

Compare him with Jim Kelly:

Jim Kelly's numbers:

Games Played - 160
Career Record -- 101-59
Pass Attempts -- 4,779
Pass Completions -- 2,874
Percentage -- 60.1
Yards -- 35,467
TD's -- 237
Int's -- 175
Rating -- 84.4

McNabb:

Games Played -- 132
Pass Attempts -- 4,303
Pass completions -- 2,534
Percentage -- 58.9
Yards -- 29,320
TD's -- 194
Int's -- 90
Rating -- 86.5

Kelly was a first ballot HOFer.

Both did not win the big one, but McNabb might get one more shot you never know.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Compare him with Jim Kelly:

Jim Kelly's numbers:

Games Played - 160
Career Record -- 101-59
Pass Attempts -- 4,779
Pass Completions -- 2,874
Percentage -- 60.1
Yards -- 35,467
TD's -- 237
Int's -- 175
Rating -- 84.4

McNabb:

Games Played -- 132
Pass Attempts -- 4,303
Pass completions -- 2,534
Percentage -- 58.9
Yards -- 29,320
TD's -- 194
Int's -- 90
Rating -- 86.5

Kelly was a first ballot HOFer.

Both did not win the big one, but McNabb might get one more shot you never know.

Now that you put it like that, he'll probably make it. His numbers should be better than Kellys when he retires.

5 HOF quarterbacks of the 2000s. Brady,Manning,Favre, Mcnabb, Roethlisberger. Usual number as other decades. Big Ben should make it by the time he retires, unless his career really goes down the toilet.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Cassel came with some baggage, some of which was generated by the local media. He was after all the guy who hadn't started since college, he threw a pick to Jason Taylor once and got benched, sucked in pre season and it was obvious that was why they drafted first Gutierrez whom they reportedly loved and then KOC who taken in the third was obviously the replacement not to mention he had Moss and Welker and still only won 11 games... Perception is tough to shake. Some of us were mocked for suggesting Cassel actually had trade value or actually any value prior to his first start...

And McNabb is not a HOF QB unless he wins a Superbowl. He's had a productive career comparatively speaking but he's never managed to get a team over the hump. Entering the back 9 he isn't the player who took Philly to all those NFCC games anymore, and he will need lots of help and support and a little luck since he's been injury prone for four of his last five seasons. QB's who don't win championships generally don't go into the Hall unless they were individually statistically spectacular like Marino. Or they compiled tremendous stats over a lengthy career.

As for all the love for Shannahan and the predictions about what he will do for McNabb, Shanny the HC was a pretty good schemer but Shanny the GM has been less than stellar not to mention increasingly egotistical and that is what cost the HC his last job. He was a .500 HC/GM in his last three seasons in Denver, roughly a .600 HC/GM post Elway and his playoff record post Elway is 1-4. I wouldn't hold my breath for McNabb to secure that ring.

 

[eagle eye]

Now that you put it like that, he'll probably make it. His numbers should be better than Kellys when he retires.

5 HOF quarterbacks of the 2000s. Brady,Manning,Favre, Mcnabb, Roethlisberger. Usual number as other decades. Big Ben should make it by the time he retires, unless his career really goes down the toilet.

There will be more than 5 from this decade, the game has changed and QBs have been much more important over the last decade.

You can add Drew Brees and Kurt Warner to that list as certainties.

 

[JoeSixPat]

On Twitter yesterday,Reiss had some interesting comments on last years trade of Cassel and Vrabel to the Chiefs for the second rounder of the Chiefs #34 pick.

He says that he got lots of disgruntled Pats fans who felt that only getting KC's 2nd rounder at #34 for those two players was dissapointing in many views but after the McNabb to the Redskins trade that Pats fans should look at this deal as being in the same type deal except you have a proven future HOF QB who probably has 3-5 good years left for just the 37th pick in the second round and possibly just a 4th in 2011

For those that think we were screwed by that trade,you might rethink it after seeing this deal,Cassel is still unproven as a starting QB on another team and Vrabel is reaching 35......good thoughts from Mike on that.

The Chief's 2nd round pick was effectively an end of the 1st round pick - which is what I felt would be more than good value for Cassel, especially since having Moss on your team can make an below average QB look good.

Throwing in Vrabel was a bit of a shock, and to this day I'd have preferred that we keep him even at the $4.5 million - but I understand why they included him.

If indeed Vrabel was not inclined to accept a pay cut, leaving the Pats forced to cut him and leave him open to any team in free agency, that meant the possibility of him going to a Division rival.

In that sense, including him in the Cassel deal made a LOT of sense, as a win win for both teams... the Chiefs with room for Vrabel's salary get a good locker room veteran and someone that Cassel already knows well to be there with him during the season. The Pats ensure that Vrabel doesn't strengthen a Division Rival and Vrabel gets his full $4.5 million - probably a few million more than he'd have gotten on the open market for one season.

While hindsight is 20/20 you can't second guess that decision at the time it was made.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Compare him with Jim Kelly:

Jim Kelly's numbers:

Games Played - 160
Career Record -- 101-59
Pass Attempts -- 4,779
Pass Completions -- 2,874
Percentage -- 60.1
Yards -- 35,467
TD's -- 237
Int's -- 175
Rating -- 84.4

McNabb:

Games Played -- 132
Pass Attempts -- 4,303
Pass completions -- 2,534
Percentage -- 58.9
Yards -- 29,320
TD's -- 194
Int's -- 90
Rating -- 86.5

Kelly was a first ballot HOFer.

Both did not win the big one, but McNabb might get one more shot you never know.

Yes - thank you... if his career ends today I agree he's not a HOF QB... give him 3 more years under Shanahan and then compare his numbers to other HOF QBs - even those who never won a Super Bowl, and he's very likely in.

So calling him a likely HOF QB isn't a significant stretch.

That's not to say he's Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, who, if their career DID end today WOULD be in the HOF, but the point is that we shouldn't be complaining about Cassel's trade value compared to an admittedly older probable HOF QB.

 

[patsinthesnow]

There will be more than 5 from this decade, the game has changed and QBs have been much more important over the last decade.

You can add Drew Brees and Kurt Warner to that list as certainties.

Wow, forgot about Brees and Warner.

Brady and Manning will be the only two mentioned in the GOAT, top 5 lists, etc. Brees has a chance to get there if he can lead the Saints to the 10's dynasty.

Brady=GOAT consideration
Manning=GOAT consideration
Favre=Top 10, no GOAT, remembered as the gunslinger.
Warner=Maybe top 15, top 20
Mcnabb=Same as Warner
Brees=Undetermined, could get to GOAT if the Saints become the new dynasty.
Roethlisberger=I think his career will fall apart with all the head injuries.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Compare him with Jim Kelly:

Jim Kelly's numbers:

Games Played - 160
Career Record -- 101-59
Pass Attempts -- 4,779
Pass Completions -- 2,874
Percentage -- 60.1
Yards -- 35,467
TD's -- 237
Int's -- 175
Rating -- 84.4

McNabb:

Games Played -- 132
Pass Attempts -- 4,303
Pass completions -- 2,534
Percentage -- 58.9
Yards -- 29,320
TD's -- 194
Int's -- 90
Rating -- 86.5

Kelly was a first ballot HOFer.

Both did not win the big one, but McNabb might get one more shot you never know.

Kelly took his team to 4 straight superbowls, big difference between that and taking a team to multiple conference championships and losing all but one of those and then losing the only SB you got to. Also, it's the pro football HOF and not the NFL HOF. Kelly didn't play his first two seasons in the NFL because he wouldn't sign with Buffalo after they drafted him. He played in the USFL and racked up 9800 yards and 83 TD's there. His stats from the NFL were compiled in 11 seasons. McNabb has played 11 seasons already...

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Yes - thank you... if his career ends today I agree he's not a HOF QB... give him 3 more years under Shanahan and then compare his numbers to other HOF QBs - even those who never won a Super Bowl, and he's very likely in.

So calling him a likely HOF QB isn't a significant stretch.

That's not to say he's Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, who, if their career DID end today WOULD be in the HOF, but the point is that we shouldn't be complaining about Cassel's trade value compared to an admittedly older probable HOF QB.

I am not a huge McNabb fan but common guys to compare a late round draft pick who guided a Superbowl ready team with two great WR to a decent season. To a 2nd overall draft choice who threw to receivers for 8 years that were worse then Brady ever had. One year of production out of Cassel just does not equate to what McNabb has done IMO so to compare the trades would not make sense.

Kelly won a lot of games and went to 4 strait super bowls (one he is injured for but was their best shot IMO "Wide Right"). McNabb went to a SB and 4 strait NFC championship games.

For McNabb it all has to do with what he does from here on out on whether he will be a HOF'er. I really think Washington will surprise this year if they trade down to 13 - 15 range but still get some quality OT and a second this year with a pick in 2011. This would allow them to recoup their second rounder and pick up another OL. Between Parker, Johnson and Portis you have on of the best backfields ever in football....back in 2006 . Washington is starting to look like the over the hill gang again!!

McNabb I am sure knows the weakness's in the Redskins Defense and knows the NFC East teams very well, especially the Eagles. He is an accomplished QB with some upgrades to the OL this team could challenge quick.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Kelly took his team to 4 straight superbowls, big difference between that and taking a team to multiple conference championships and losing all but one of those and then losing the only SB you got to. Also, it's the pro football HOF and not the NFL HOF. Kelly didn't play his first two seasons in the NFL because he wouldn't sign with Buffalo after they drafted him. He played in the USFL and racked up 9800 yards and 83 TD's there. His stats from the NFL were compiled in 11 seasons. McNabb has played 11 seasons already...

Points taken.

Young is in the same boat and I am not diminishing anything Jim Kelly did in his great career. My point is he lead his team to three SB's (one he was on the bench) compared to McNabb's one but he did lead them to 4 strait final four (tis the season) appearances which is not to bad. Overall I would say that Jim Kelly threw to more talent over his career then McNabb has up until last year.

My main point is Kelly never won the big one despite always having successful teams just like Donovan. If Kelly was a first ballot HOFer I think McNabb would get there at some point as long as he does not crap the bed in Washington which I do not think he will do.

 

[VOODOOZF]

Is there any truth to the rumor that the Patriots turned down KC's first round pick for Cassel?

If memory serves the rumor was that KC was willing to part with their first round pick (which I believe was #3 or 4 in the draft) in exchange for Cassel because like the Patriots they did not want to pay big money to an unproven player.

I'm not saying this is fact... I'm just asking if there was ever any truth to it.

 

[Ice Cold Bruschi]

I wouldn't go so far as to call McNabb a "proven future HOF QB"

 

[bigfandan]

Kirk Warner is ahead of him with 1SB win and 3 SB appearances. There are 4 HOF QBs with Brady, Manning, Farve, and Warner. 5 seems a bit high.

I'm not sure McNabb is going to the HOF. I mean I know I'm nitpicking the article.

But is McNabb HOF calibre?

 

[102 Pat]

The trade was a good one and I say this as a long time Vrabel fan, although it would of been nice to have him around in the locker room last year. I still say he wouldn't of been traded if BB knew Bruschi was going to retire.

 

[jmt57]

Is there any truth to the rumor that the Patriots turned down KC's first round pick for Cassel?

If memory serves the rumor was that KC was willing to part with their first round pick (which I believe was #3 or 4 in the draft) in exchange for Cassel because like the Patriots they did not want to pay big money to an unproven player.

I'm not saying this is fact... I'm just asking if there was ever any truth to it.

That's the first I've ever heard of that - other than maybe some Pats fans speculating what Cassel would get - and it makes no sense. Even if the Pats didn't want to pay that money, if KC was willing to give up it's 1st then the Pats could have countered with something like 'give us a 2nd & next year's 2nd' instead.

I think you may be getting confused with the false rumor that Oakland offered the Pats a 2010 1st for Richard Seymour.

 

[jmt57]

Compare him with Jim Kelly:

Jim Kelly's numbers:

Games Played - 160
Career Record -- 101-59
Pass Attempts -- 4,779
Pass Completions -- 2,874
Percentage -- 60.1
Yards -- 35,467
TD's -- 237
Int's -- 175
Rating -- 84.4

McNabb:

Games Played -- 132
Pass Attempts -- 4,303
Pass completions -- 2,534
Percentage -- 58.9
Yards -- 29,320
TD's -- 194
Int's -- 90
Rating -- 86.5

Kelly was a first ballot HOFer.

Both did not win the big one, but McNabb might get one more shot you never know.

I think people will look at McNabb's career totals and compare him to players like Kelly, but in my opinion that is a mistake. The NFL game has changed dramatically since Kelly played, skewing many stats - especially in the passing game.

For example McNabb has now thrown for 32,873 yards - but has only been in the top ten in passing yards twice in his career: 8th in 2004 and 7th in 2008. He's been in the top ten in passing touchdowns in a season four times, but only once in the top five.

By comparison Kelly was among the top ten in the NFL in passing yards six times, including three seasons in the top five. For passing touchdowns Kelly was in the top ten nine tops, including five seasons in the top five and leading the league in touchdowns once.

Kelly was a more dominant QB in his era, among his peers, than McNabb has been in his era. Rule changes and changes in offensive philosophy throughout the league skew the overall career numbers. Kelly ranks 15th all-time in passing yards and 18th in passing touchdowns while McNabb ranks 24th and 22nd right now. By the time he retires McNabb will approach or pass Kelly in those rankings despite Kelly consistently ranking higher in those categories than McNabb has. In my opinion all-time career numbers are almost meaningless; instead, take a look and compare how a player ranked among his peers in his era.

 

[SeauOUCH]

Points taken.

Young is in the same boat and I am not diminishing anything Jim Kelly did in his great career. My point is he lead his team to three SB's (one he was on the bench) compared to McNabb's one but he did lead them to 4 strait final four (tis the season) appearances which is not to bad. Overall I would say that Jim Kelly threw to more talent over his career then McNabb has up until last year.

My main point is Kelly never won the big one despite always having successful teams just like Donovan. If Kelly was a first ballot HOFer I think McNabb would get there at some point as long as he does not crap the bed in Washington which I do not think he will do.

Kelley led his team to 4 straight SB's & played absolute powerhouse NFC teams every time. ( though they were small favorites in the 1st one but that giants team was stacked on D )

McNabb lost AT HOME in 4 NFC conference games & were HUGE favorites in at least 2 of those games.

It has become much more of a passing league now, Kelley's stats are more impressive than McNabb's. McNabb has alot of work to do still to make it to the HOF imo.

 

[Zeus]

Also, it's the pro football HOF and not the NFL HOF.

Some old AFL guys like Gino Cappelletti might take issue with that statement.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Well, it's only disingenius if I then try to make a judgment on BB and the Pats based on the hindsight results. I didn't have a problem with the trade either, but if Chung becomes a bust (which I don't expect), then you have to list it as a negative net result.

how so? by having cassell back up brady? by getting one more year out of vrabel?

the draft is about opportunities.....compared to other trades, it is in the same ballpark.....the pats had to do something

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think people will look at McNabb's career totals and compare him to players like Kelly, but in my opinion that is a mistake. The NFL game has changed dramatically since Kelly played, skewing many stats - especially in the passing game.

For example McNabb has now thrown for 32,873 yards - but has only been in the top ten in passing yards twice in his career: 8th in 2004 and 7th in 2008. He's been in the top ten in passing touchdowns in a season four times, but only once in the top five.

By comparison Kelly was among the top ten in the NFL in passing yards six times, including three seasons in the top five. For passing touchdowns Kelly was in the top ten nine tops, including five seasons in the top five and leading the league in touchdowns once.

Kelly was a more dominant QB in his era, among his peers, than McNabb has been in his era. Rule changes and changes in offensive philosophy throughout the league skew the overall career numbers. Kelly ranks 15th all-time in passing yards and 18th in passing touchdowns while McNabb ranks 24th and 22nd right now. By the time he retires McNabb will approach or pass Kelly in those rankings despite Kelly consistently ranking higher in those categories than McNabb has. In my opinion all-time career numbers are almost meaningless; instead, take a look and compare how a player ranked among his peers in his era.

Exactly. Kelly led the league in passing in 1990. McNabb has been playing (when he's healthy...) for the last five seasons in a league where 4000 yards has become common place thanks to the Polian Committee . And the fact that Kelly did what he did in 11 seasons vs. what McNabb has done in 11 is what you have to look at when comparing even those two. It's not the hall of the pretty good... And it really shouldn't be the hall of the famous. McNabb will have his supporters among the HOF voting population because he's always been something of a media darling. But at the end of the day given the QB's within his era, absent a ring he would be a tough sell. And I don't see Washington winning a SB in the next three seasons, which is probably at most what he has left given his bread and butter scrambling skill set. I don't doubt he could turn in a super focused Bledsoe like performance out of the gate this season, but those adreneline and revenge fueled early performances tend to revert to form in time. He doesn't have a ton of weapons to work with, and that OL has to be upgraded just to keep him in one piece, let alone to zone block for Shanny's three amigos backfield. Probably too much to do with #4 and #103.