Vince Wilfork...on WEEI...

[VrabelMayeWin]

I assume you realize that this makes no sense when referring to a 3-4 NT. Denver and Kansas City, to name two teams, certainly realize that.

The 2 down part ? Wilfork plays on 1st, 2nd and only 3rd and short. He is usually waddling off the field on 3rd down and passing situations.

 

[Deus Irae]

The 2 down part ? Wilfork plays on 1st, 2nd and only 3rd and short. He is usually waddling off the field on 3rd down and passing situations.

No, the value part. Frankly, I'm stunned that you even thought about going there since any Patriots fans who've been around since the Steve Martin era should know better.

 

[Miguel]

Wilfork's Average Cap Number for his 6 year contract was $1.85 million.

The below links shows the cap numbers for defensive tackles by year.
USATODAY.com
USATODAY.com
USATODAY.com
USATODAY.com
USATODAY.com
USATODAY.com

If one were to look at the 2004 draft,
DraftHistory.com

Wilfork would have to be considered one of the top players from that draft. Since he has not signed a second contract, he has to be the least paid top player from that draft. Example - Tommie Harris took home more cash in a single year - 2008 ($11.9 million) than has Wilfork over 6 years ($11.1 million).

On 7/20/2004 Mike Reiss reported that "the total value of the contract could possibly be up to $18.05 million, with a $4 million "escalator" in the fifth year and a $5 million "escalator" in the sixth year. DaBruinz, please explain how Wilfork made many of his incentives when his total take from the contract was $7 million less than its maximum value.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

No, the value part. Frankly, I'm stunned that you even thought about going there since any Patriots fans who've been around since the Steve Martin era know better.

I was here for that era. And I know Brace didn't look too good. But I also saw teams lose their NT and do just fine (in the Browns case they didn't do fine as a team but played the run better once they lose Rogers). Just because Belichick failed with Martin doesn't mean he can't find a decent, workmanlike NT while using draft picks to continue making the team more athletic.

 

[tobias funke]

The last thing you'll ever catch me doing on this forum is arguing about a contract with miguel

 

[Christopher Patriot]

Re: Vince Wilfork...on WEEI..

Im torn on this one, on one hand you have a stud nose tackle tailed fit to the 3-4 defense to a tee. on the other hand you have a nose tackle well like any man once they get paid handsomely they become a little complacent. He's 28, so he has 2, 3 years of dominance tops. Now a reasonable contract would be like 3 years 21 million. He is obviously lookiing at more haynesworth, and wares recent contracts. He's saying im the best on the team that attitude is not team first your telling me he can't provide for his family for even 15 million it's greed and it's not just him. BB said there was alot of complacency Maybe big Vince is one of them, so let's look we have a Myron pryor who showed flashes of quality play, Ron brace who has the size to make a impact a slew of draft picks. I wouldn't be mad if the patriots just did what I did in madden, trade wilfork for Stewart and second and Thirs round picks in this years draft. seriously in today's NFL threres not alot of teams that run alot and the thinking is with a explosive offense your mostly gonna be defending the pass which Vince is not a ware or suggs. So if they can't agree then franchise and trade him and as far as the comment about free agents not going to want to deal with the patriots. Everyone understands it's a business nothing surprises me if the patriots traded Brady tomorrow I would believe it was a greater good and benefited the team. We are poised to dominate this draft with Adalius, maroney, wilfork and possibly moss as trade bait. If we Pull gems out of this draft and hit on 70 percent of our picks. We will be in yh

 

[Deus Irae]

I was here for that era. And I know Brace didn't look too good. But I also saw teams lose their NT and do just fine (in the Browns case they didn't do fine as a team but played the run better once they lose Rogers). Just because Belichick failed with Martin doesn't mean he can't find a decent, workmanlike NT while using draft picks to continue making the team more athletic.

Draft picks are nothing in the abstract. When people start realizing that, perhaps sanity can return to the talk of drafts and trade. Draft picks are like money: of their own, they're meaningless and a waste of time to have. They are only important for what they can bring you.

And what you want draft picks to bring you is All Pro players at vital positions. That's what Wilfork is, and his value is higher than any draft pick this year.

As for the 3-4 teams who lose their NTs and do fine, could you name me all the 3-4 teams in the past 20 years that have been elite teams and were without a quality NT?

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

As for the 3-4 teams who lose their NTs and do fine, could you name me all the 3-4 teams in the past 20 years that have been elite teams and were without a quality NT?

SD and the Jets this year lost top NT.

 

[Deus Irae]

SD and the Jets this year lost top NT.

And, as a result, neither was an elite team. That's really the point. As loaded as those teams were at other spots, and they still weren't elite squads without that quality NT.

To be fair to the Jets, having Sanchez at the QB spot would have prevented them from being an elite team no matter who was at the NT spot.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

And, as a result, neither was an elite team.

They both had issues way beyond their NT. If we had a usable NT like those two and more talent due to the draft picks we would be just fine. I understand both sides of this argument but it's clear to me we would be fine in talent if we traded him for appropriate value and drafted well.

 

[Wolfpack]

Wilfork will act within his rights. The patriots will act within theirs. Wilfork can be happy with the franchise tag OFFER amount for a NEW one-year deal, or NOT. And since he will NOT be under contract to the patriots until he signs, there is no agreement with regard to public conduct.

There is absolutely no reason to expect that Wilfork will sign a tag before the draft or tell the media that he is happy with a franchise tag. Wilfork will not be out any money (other than fines for not attending camp) until the week before the first game, when I would expect him to come to practice. Those are his rights.

I don't think they can fine him assuming he had not signed the franchise tender. He can essentially shop himself around to other teams (once free agency begins) and maybe the Pats can work out a trade, but my prediction is they franchise him and he plays this year under the tag.

 

[Wolfpack]

he has the right to want the security of a long term deal....he has earned it.......he has also earned the right to go by the book and sing the franchise tender a few weeks into the season, get the year into the books and move on next year. in fact, with the way the pats have handled other players, he is within his rights to do whatever he thinks is right.

He also has the right to quit the NFL and seek his fortune elsewhere. But that doesn't necessarily mean that is the smart thing to do. He will be just another in a long line of players that complained about the franchise tender but when push comes to shove he will realize it is in his best interest to go out and have the best season he can have since 2010 becomes a contract year (again).

 

[Miguel]

DaBruinz, if Wilfork's rookie contract was so good, why did Jarvis Green, a backup, take home more cash than Wilfork in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 AND in 2009??

 

[Deus Irae]

They both had issues way beyond their NT. If we had a usable NT like those two and more talent due to the draft picks we would be just fine. I understand both sides of this argument but it's clear to me we would be fine in talent if we traded him for appropriate value and drafted well.

Again, anyone who saw the Patriots during the Steve Martin era should know better. Anyone still questioning at that point need only look at Kansas City and Denver this season. There are simply some players, at some positions, where it's not possible to recoup value.

Elite QB
Shutdown CB
Elite NT
Elite LT

You can't improve upon those with generic draft picks.

 

[Wolfpack]

sure.....and none of them was named wilfork.........so he's going to be there week 1 because those other guys were there week 1?

No, he's going to come to the exact same realization all those other guys came to: He will be there week 1 because it is in his best interest to be there week 1.

 

[Deus Irae]

No, he's going to come to the exact same realization all those other guys came to: He will be there week 1 because it is in his best interest to be there week 1.

You've got me curious.... how is it in his best interest to be there week 1 without a promise not to franchise, as opposed to coming in at the last possible week to get credit for the season?

 

[Wolfpack]

DaBruinz, if Wilfork's rookie contract was so good, why did Jarvis Green, a backup, take home more cash than Wilfork in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 AND in 2009??

Rookies in the NFL get hosed, especially when drafted by a team like the Pats that knows how to play hardball.

Note I am not criticizing the Pats, but rather criticizing the system. Fortunately, it looks like we will be seeing a slotted system in the next CBA.

 

[Wolfpack]

You've got me curious.... how is it in his best interest to be there week 1 without a promise not to franchise, as opposed to coming in at the last possible week to get credit for the season?

Coming in at the last possible week just to get credit for the season would seriously hurt his value on the free market during 2011. Teams simply will not offer as much money to a guy who did the bare minimum and was barely seen all year long as they would to a guy who played a full season and played well.

 

[Deus Irae]

Coming in at the last possible week just to get credit for the season would seriously hurt his value on the free market during 2011. Teams simply will not offer as much money to a guy who did the bare minimum and was barely seen all year long as they would to a guy who played a full season and played well.

If Vince comes in for 6 weeks and is his old, dominant self by the end of the year, the offers will still be there.

 

[Wolfpack]

If Vince comes in for 6 weeks and is his old, dominant self by the end of the year, the offers will still be there.

Well that's part of the point I am making. You can't just show up on Thanksgiving and expect to be dominating by week 17 when everyone else has been together since August.

Do you honestly think Vince Wilfork could just stroll into town on week 12 and Belichick will rush him right back into the same role he had before? No way that happens. Wilfork is smart enough to know that that strategy is just cutting off his nose to spite his face.