"Draft Redux" - Don Banks

[DaBruinz]

This post is The Answer, The Truth & The Way.

The reasons why we haven't won a SB in the past 4 years can be found right here; just add Bill's ******ed coaching decisions plus the worst pair of Coordinators in football.

Krafty needs to remove final say on personnel - both college & pro - from Bill, hire an outside voice with fresh ideas for GM, and insist that Bill hire professional Coordinators instead of the incompetent, mindless lap-dogs we're stuck with now.

*ROFMLAO*.. Should have know that any talk about the draft would cause you to rear your head and spew..

 

[mgteich]

To having gotten the corner and OT the team wanted and needed at 41 and 58 is f***ing amazing. As you said in another thread, Mayock had us taking Butler at 23. Most everyone had Belichick wanting Butler as one his top choices. Most understood that we needed an OT. Some are still pi$$ing and moaning that we didn't take a tackle at 23 instead of 58. Belichick also got one of the top safeties and landed us the best deep snapper in the country. All the rest was playing with house money.

ProFootballWeekly's Nolan Nawrocki successfully predicted 15 of the 32 first round picks in the 2009 draft (exact matches, player with team). Here's what he had to say about the Pat's draft afterwards:

"New England Patriots — Not seeing any value in the first round, Bill Belichick traded down multiple times, slipping out of the first round entirely. Receiving two additional 2010 second-round picks, from the Titans and Jaguars, is a big plus and could bring two future starters. Belichick was very savvy moving up and down the draft board, which he does as well as anyone in the NFL, executing a league-high seven trades over the weekend. He had also picked up a second-round pick for QB Matt Cassel. S Patrick Chung, DT Ron Brace and CB Darius Butler all have starter potential, as does Hawaii LS Jake Ingram. OT Sebastian Vollmer and WR Brandon Tate were reaches with pressing injury concerns, but both fit the Patriots’ offense very well, and LB Tyrone McKenzie could become a solid pro. With one of the NFL’s deepest rosters, Round Five on likely will not provide any value. The acquisition of future picks and the ability to wheel and deal make this draft a win for Belichick, player personnel director Nick Caserio and senior football advisor Floyd Reese. The Patriots also added WR Greg Lewis before the draft and dealt starting CB Ellis Hobbs to the Eagles.
Grade: Outstanding"

In retrospect, Vollmer clearly was no "reach" at all, and may end up as the best OT out of the draft.

 

[mayoclinic]

To having gotten the corner and OT the team wanted and needed at 41 and 58 is f***ing amazing. As you said in another thread, Mayock had us taking Butler at 23. Most everyone had Belichick wanting Butler as one his top choices. Most understood that we needed an OT. Some are still pi$$ing and moaning that we didn't take a tackle at 23 instead of 58. Belichick also got one of the top safeties and landed us the best deep snapper in the country. All the rest was playing with house money.

F***ing amazing is right.

I think Vollmer will end up being better than the tackle some wish we would have taken at 23 (Oher). And I think Butler will be at worst a solid starting CB, and at best a lockdown player for us.

I wanted LBs as much as anyone on this board. But you can't have everything, and BB hit the jackpot at least twice, and probably more. As you say, the rest was playing with house money.

Now if he doesn't address the pass rush situation this offseason, it's another matter.

 

[jays52]

F***ing amazing is right.

I think Vollmer will end up being better than the tackle some wish we would have taken at 23 (Oher). And I think Butler will be at worst a solid starting CB, and at best a lockdown player for us.

I wanted LBs as much as anyone on this board. But you can't have everything, and BB hit the jackpot at least twice, and probably more. As you say, the rest was playing with house money.

Now if he doesn't address the pass rush situation this offseason, it's another matter.

Nevermind how he parlayed the earlier picks into many seconds this coming year. '09 will be one of his best classes. You know how high I am on Vollmer, bud, and I think that he is going to be the best tackle of the draft (and a better than 50% chance to become the best player of the draft). I also think Chung is going to be the best SS of the draft, and the future defensive leader. A true micro-harrison. Nevermind Butler et all.

One note about LB's that I think is worth noting. I see many people wanting to draft a pass rushing LB this year. The issue with that is the time it will take an OLB to develop within the scheme. I think that the immediate solution is to go get Peppers, draft a guy in the 2nd, and groom him as the replacement. In my mind, it's three years too late to take a 1st round OLB.

 

[mayoclinic]

One note about LB's that I think is worth noting. I see many people wanting to draft a pass rushing LB this year. The issue with that is the time it will take an OLB to develop within the scheme. I think that the immediate solution is to go get Peppers, draft a guy in the 2nd, and groom him as the replacement. In my mind, it's three years too late to take a 1st round OLB.

It's never too late. I agree that we should have started 3 years ago (we could have taken Mathias Kiwanuka for example, or Manny Lawson), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get our act together.

I agree with you, however, that we shouldn't draft a DE/OLB with the expectation that they will step in from day 1 and make a difference. I'm not sure who can do that. Derrick Burgess certainly didn't. Maybe Peppers would, but I'd be leery of a guy with his inconsistency and the size of his contract.

I think the immediate solution is to pick up a veteran FA and draft 1-2 guys in the 2nd round. I like Shawne Merriman and Aaron Kampman as alternatives to Peppers at this point. And I'd make sure to go for guys who are stout enough to play the run as well as rush the passer - guys like Greg Romeus, Jeremy Beal, and Brandon Graham.

 

[jays52]

It's never too late. I agree that we should have started 3 years ago (we could have taken Mathias Kiwanuka for example, or Manny Lawson), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get our act together.

I agree with you, however, that we shouldn't draft a DE/OLB with the expectation that they will step in from day 1 and make a difference. I'm not sure who can do that. Derrick Burgess certainly didn't. Maybe Peppers would, but I'd be leery of a guy with his inconsistency and the size of his contract.

I think the immediate solution is to pick up a veteran FA and draft 1-2 guys in the 2nd round. I like Shawne Merriman and Aaron Kampman as alternatives to Peppers at this point. And I'd make sure to go for guys who are stout enough to play the run as well as rush the passer - guys like Greg Romeus, Jeremy Beal, and Brandon Graham.

Yeah, I hear you. I agree that it's never too late, my point was more eluding to the fact that this immediate need can only be met by FA (barring exceptional circumstance). I also agree with your assesment of the prospects, specifically Beal. However, I have to respectfully disagree one call on the FA prospects.

When it comes to the Merriman vs Kampman discussion, I think that the primary need this season needs to come into play. Leadership is a desperate need on defense, and when I see Kampman, I see a leader. When I see Merriman, I see the inverse. The way I view the defense currently is one inundated with high level tallent, yet little to know football acumen (relatively speaking, of course). Inserting a guy like Kampman who understands several techniques, and the intracacies of professional football will only accelerate the veteran learning curve the young guys so desperately need to ascend.

BTW, put me firmly in the sign Sharper camp. He'll be situational for us, but the young safeties need veteran awareness back there. Sharper is the best available vet leader in the entire NFL.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

With one of the NFL’s deepest rosters, Round Five on likely will not provide any value.

I'm kinda glad he was wrong on this. So are Ingram, Pryor, and Edelman, I'm sure.

 

[condon84]

You clearly don't watch the games. Pryor stands out every time he's out there. He's always doing his job and is rarely taken out of the play. The fact remains that the guy is all hustle.



Please talk about not being able to replace the talent we've lost and such. Tell me something, how old were McGinest, Bruschi, etc, when the Pats won their 1st? How about their 3rd? People like you act like the EXPERIENCE means nothing and that TALENT means everything. I have news for you.. You're wrong.

Also, the pats have had the talent to win, unforntuately, the league has seen fit to go out of their way to ensure that the Mannings get their rings.




Clearly someone who doesn't remember the 2001 team. Who were all these good/great players that the Pats used to supplement what they had? Torrance Small? Charles Johnson? Any of the other 20 something JAGs they signed that year?

The 2001 Pats didn't have 25 players on their roster with 3 years experience OR LESS.... In fact, the 2001 Pats had 31 players who had 5 OR MORE years experience...

People like you always claim that the "last few drafts haven't been good," but you refuse to give the players time to develop. You want instant results. You only look at the picks of the draft, not the other players acquired or the other picks added.

You are so delusional but I expected a reply like this from the number homer on this site, which says a WHOLE lot considering the rampant homerism that goes on on these boards.

You have excuses for everything, but the bottom line is......we haven't won a Super Bowl since 04 and our talent has gone down.

And the fact that you've gone on to even acuse the league of going out of their way for Peyton?? Dude, do you realize all the calls that have gone our way?

You can write all the essays you want, but that doesn't skew the reality everyone outside of the homers like you live in. The Pats are an 8-5 team because of the accumulative personnel decisions the past couple of years.

So go ahead, reply with some BS that you've obviously convinced yourself, you are my personal entertainment whenever you post because the crap you write are wildly entertaining.

Frankly, I'm still tyring to figure out if this is a schtick or if you are really as delusional as your posts would suggest. Either way, you are entertaining especially when someone is unaware of your gimmick and gets sucked in. LOL.

BTW, LMAO at you convicing yourself that Pryor is a standout. What's next? Ron Brace is our secret weapon and we're just waiting for the playoffs to unveil him?

 

[mayoclinic]

Yeah, I hear you. I agree that it's never too late, my point was more eluding to the fact that this immediate need can only be met by FA (barring exceptional circumstance). I also agree with your assesment of the prospects, specifically Beal. However, I have to respectfully disagree one call on the FA prospects.

When it comes to the Merriman vs Kampman discussion, I think that the primary need this season needs to come into play. Leadership is a desperate need on defense, and when I see Kampman, I see a leader. When I see Merriman, I see the inverse. The way I view the defense currently is one inundated with high level tallent, yet little to know football acumen (relatively speaking, of course). Inserting a guy like Kampman who understands several techniques, and the intracacies of professional football will only accelerate the veteran learning curve the young guys so desperately need to ascend.

BTW, put me firmly in the sign Sharper camp. He'll be situational for us, but the young safeties need veteran awareness back there. Sharper is the best available vet leader in the entire NFL.

I would have agreed with you previously about Merriman. But right now I think the Pats could use a guy with a high motor who gives 100% even when he's injured and wants to win really badly. There's much worse. We didn't do badly with the last San Diego "bad boy" we picked up in Lord Rodney. AD, on the other hand, came across as a choir boy.

I'd be happy with either Merriman or Kampman as a FA pickup - both should be much cheaper than Peppers.

As for Darren Sharper, who wouldn't want him after the year he's had. There will be 32 teams clamoring for his services. If you can find a way for us to get him, more power to you.

 

[jays52]

You are so delusional but I expected a reply like this from the number homer on this site, which says a WHOLE lot considering the rampant homerism that goes on on these boards.

You have excuses for everything, but the bottom line is......we haven't won a Super Bowl since 04 and our talent has gone down.

And the fact that you've gone on to even acuse the league of going out of their way for Peyton?? Dude, do you realize all the calls that have gone our way?

You can write all the essays you want, but that doesn't skew the reality everyone outside of the homers like you live in. The Pats are an 8-5 team because of the accumulative personnel decisions the past couple of years.

So go ahead, reply with some BS that you've obviously convinced yourself, you are my personal entertainment whenever you post because the crap you write are wildly entertaining.

Frankly, I'm still tyring to figure out if this is a schtick or if you are really as delusional as your posts would suggest. Either way, you are entertaining especially when someone is unaware of your gimmick and gets sucked in. LOL.

BTW, LMAO at you convicing yourself that Pryor is a standout. What's next? Ron Brace is our secret weapon and we're just waiting for the playoffs to unveil him?

C'mon dude, don't hit hyperbole back with hyperbole. I dig your posts, no need to lower yourself. I think that you need to look at the bigger picture with a more objective view. All great teams experience the loss of veteran leadership. What made those championship teams special was the how rare those players were. Those defenses were the last elite units the league has seen. The rule changes have effectively eliminated defensive football in a classical sense. A damn shame if you ask me, but it is what it is. We as fans are dealing with not a tallent loss, but a leadership loss. It is to be expected, especially when compounded by the loss of coordinator after coordinator. Look, for example, at Indy. What has been the constant in that program? Autonomy of the scheme. That has not been the case here, as everyone in the league understands the professional brilliance that abounds in Foxboro. Loss of intellectual tallent compounded with the loss of leadership will lead to the temporary decline of any organization. The fact that the Pats have remained an annual playoff team is a credit to the executive management of the team.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

As for Darren Sharper, who wouldn't want him after the year he's had. There will be 32 teams clamoring for his services. If you can find a way for us to get him, more power to you.

Who would you cut to make room for him, though? I can't remember the Pats ever carrying five safeties.

 

[mayoclinic]

Who would you cut to make room for him, though? I can't remember the Pats ever carrying five safeties.

Not sure. The options I can think of include:

1. Carry 10 DBs - 5 CB's and 5 S's. That's a lot, but I could see BB doing it, especially if Chung and McGowan play hybrid S/LB a lot in a 4-2-5 kind of scheme, or we play a lot of dime.

2. Carry 5 S's and 4 CB's. Sharper and Meriweather have enough range that we could probably get away with this, though it would be a bit thin at CB.

3. Trade James Sanders. I've been leaning away from this option the past few weeks with McGowan appearing to wear down, but there's no doubt Sharper would be an upgrade.

I'd be all for it. But I can't imagine it will happen. The market for Sharper will be crazy. I suspect he'll either stay a Saint or get a huge deal from someone eager for his ball skills and leadership.

 

[jays52]

I would have agreed with you previously about Merriman. But right now I think the Pats could use a guy with a high motor who gives 100% even when he's injured and wants to win really badly. There's much worse. We didn't do badly with the last San Diego "bad boy" we picked up in Lord Rodney. AD, on the other hand, came across as a choir boy.

I'd be happy with either Merriman or Kampman as a FA pickup - both should be much cheaper than Peppers.

As for Darren Sharper, who wouldn't want him after the year he's had. There will be 32 teams clamoring for his services. If you can find a way for us to get him, more power to you.

Guess we'll agree to disagree on the Merriman front. It's no secret how much I value your opinion, and the mutual respect that exists. I'm not being argumentative, but I just don't see in him what you do. No biggie, I'll just have to take a deeper look at him and question my analysis now that I have your differing opinion (probably one out of five on here that could change my mind).

Towards Merriman/Kampman vs Peppers, I see it from a monetary front. However, when I look at Peppers, I see a bored player. I see a player who understands his physical tallent and how the scheme he plays it limits it. In my mind, he is vastly under-utilized in that defense. I would be all for it, just have to find a way to make sense of it financially. A question for those more adept than myself at the salary game: is that feasible?

I agree on Sharper's current market value. However, the NO defensive scheme is highly conducive to his playing style. I think that his value statistically is inflated this year given scheme. I also think that his true value to that team is leadership and awareness. He's the first prospective FA in a long time I have seen as a guy with the je ne sais quois that NE so desperately needs. He's up there in years, too, isn't he?

 

[jays52]

Who would you cut to make room for him, though? I can't remember the Pats ever carrying five safeties.

I can't answer that question, but I do have a philosophy on safeties in today's NFL that may provide some semblance of insight. The NFL is beginning to mimick the Urban Meyer stuff, albeit with the NFL flavor placed on it. With the proliferation of the Urban Meyer game in the lesser leagues, the defenses have adapted to counter it. The most significant change has been four or more safeties on the field at one time. I have always felt that safety was one of the most critical and versitile components to any defense. This is beginning to show as the league evolves into a more spread heavy one.

I could see a shift to more safeties on the roster as the defenses evolve to counter the spread proliferation, in addition to the TE/Welker esque Y physical matchup game that more and more teams are employing. Note: the safety heavy defenses NE played when their D was peaking a few weeks ago. I could be completely wrong, but it's some fodder for thought.

 

[mayoclinic]

Guess we'll agree to disagree on the Merriman front. It's no secret how much I value your opinion, and the mutual respect that exists. I'm not being argumentative, but I just don't see in him what you do. No biggie, I'll just have to take a deeper look at him and question my analysis now that I have your differing opinion (probably one out of five on here that could change my mind).

Towards Merriman/Kampman vs Peppers, I see it from a monetary front. However, when I look at Peppers, I see a bored player. I see a player who understands his physical tallent and how the scheme he plays it limits it. In my mind, he is vastly under-utilized in that defense. I would be all for it, just have to find a way to make sense of it financially. A question for those more adept than myself at the salary game: is that feasible?

I agree on Sharper's current market value. However, the NO defensive scheme is highly conducive to his playing style. I think that his value statistically is inflated this year given scheme. I also think that his true value to that team is leadership and awareness. He's the first prospective FA in a long time I have seen as a guy with the je ne sais quois that NE so desperately needs. He's up there in years, too, isn't he?

Sharper turned 34 in November. I guess my question is, given that he's in a scheme that's "highly conducive to his playing style", why would he leave NO unless someone threw a boatload of money at him? I can't see us doing that, and I can't see us offering him a better setting for his skills than NO.

As for Merriman, I was vehemently in the "no" camp at the trading deadline a few weeks ago. My turnaround is mostly due to my assessment that this team could benefit form a guy with his intensity and drive. But I could be wrong.

Peppers would be an intriguing experiment. I'm not sure how to make the money work, and the cost would be astronomical if it panned, so I'm not sure it's worth the risk. But I'll be ok if proven wrong.

 

[condon84]

C'mon dude, don't hit hyperbole back with hyperbole. I dig your posts, no need to lower yourself. I think that you need to look at the bigger picture with a more objective view. All great teams experience the loss of veteran leadership. What made those championship teams special was the how rare those players were. Those defenses were the last elite units the league has seen. The rule changes have effectively eliminated defensive football in a classical sense. A damn shame if you ask me, but it is what it is. We as fans are dealing with not a tallent loss, but a leadership loss. It is to be expected, especially when compounded by the loss of coordinator after coordinator. Look, for example, at Indy. What has been the constant in that program? Autonomy of the scheme. That has not been the case here, as everyone in the league understands the professional brilliance that abounds in Foxboro. Loss of intellectual tallent compounded with the loss of leadership will lead to the temporary decline of any organization. The fact that the Pats have remained an annual playoff team is a credit to the executive management of the team.

Completely agree with your post and that was what I was trying to convey. We've just lost too much personnel, compounded by bad signings/mediocre draft picks, and here we are.

I still feel lucky to have Belichick as our coach because he is IMO the best in the business but I also understand that he's made some bad decisions along the way that's led us to where we are.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Lets see. of the 12 draft picks, 8 made the team out of camp, 1 was IRed because he tore his ACL during the Rookie Camp. 1 was PUPed and then IRed after 2 games because he tweaked his knee. 1 was IRed after TC. And the last was cut and signed to the practice squad. The other 8 are on the active roster and have seen some game time.

As others have mentioned, the Pats seem to have scored with Vollmer and he seems like he'll be able to take over for Light with no issues. And he could be an ALL-PRO (which is better than Pro-Bowl) caliber tackle.

Butler, Chung, Pryor, and Edelman all have shown to be rookies, but also have shown a lot of promise. Pryor has shown the most, earning a spot right out of camp and being a regular in the rotation. To the point where the Pats were forced to trade LeKevin Smith to make a spot for Pryor.

Yet, you think that this draft set the Pats back.. And you wonder why I have the opinion I do of you...

Well, it's about time you responded to my posts. I thought you put me on ignore?

It's no surprise that you are impressed with the Pats draft or anything they do in general. However, I'm not impressed with their picks despite all the ammo they had going into the draft. Their most glaring need was neglected once again - pass rush. I don't think they accomplished much, if anything last off season. I'm clearly in the minority in thinking their team has actually regressed. Their 8-5 record gives me enough evidence in thinking that for now (and they're very fortunate to be 8-5 right now).

It's no secret why this team hasn't won a super bowl in the last 5 years? They haven't been able to replace the players they lose. It's that simple. Their secondary has been a mess for years and their LB's have been almost as bad since 2005. Why is that? Why is taking the Pats so long to fill their most glaring needs? With the core group of players that they have, their needs should've been taken care of by now. It's been 5 years and their defense still isn't very good. Now take into account that their offense is struggling shows their team is regressing. It's a shame because the Pats had something special.

How did you like your edited name in your quote just like you edited mine for no reason?

 

[mgteich]

We had one of the best teams in the history of the NFL in 2007 and were one play away from winning it all. It was a miracle play and the player we didn't replace was in coverage. In 2008, we played without Brady.

I understand that there are those to whom this team is a failure because we have only the second best number of wins in a decade that any team in the history of the NFL, and we haven't won a Super Bowl in the last four seasons. Those folks are certainly entitled to their opinions.

Well, it's about time you responded to my posts. I thought you put me on ignore?

It's no surprise that you are impressed with the Pats draft or anything they do in general. However, I'm not impressed with their picks despite all the ammo they had going in to the draft. Their most glaring need was neglected once again - pass rush. I don't think they accomplished much, if anything last off season. I'm clearly in the minority in thinking their team has actually regressed. Their 8-5 record gives me enough evidence for now.

It's no secret why this team hasn't won a super bowl in the last 5 years? They haven't been able to replace the players they lose. It's that simple. Their secondary has been a mess for years and their LB's have been almost as bad since 2005. Why is that? Why is taking the Pats so long to fill their most glaring needs? With the core group of players that they have, their needs should've been taken care of by now. It's been 5 years and their defense still isn't very good. Now take into account that their offense is struggling shows their team is regressing. It's a shame because the Pats had something special.

How did you like your edited name in your quote just like you edited mine for no reason?

 

[SEA_Pat]

You have excuses for everything, but the bottom line is......we haven't won a Super Bowl since 04 and our talent has gone down.

You can write all the essays you want, but that doesn't skew the reality everyone outside of the homers like you live in. The Pats are an 8-5 team because of the accumulative personnel decisions the past couple of years.

OMG! We haven't won a Super Bowl in 5 years! Oh, there WAS that perfect season two years ago that was essentially one play away, let's discount that. And there were the 40 years prior to the first Super Bowl we won where except for a few brief shining moments we sucked consistently. But OMG! We're only 8-5 and heading to the playoffs again. The sky is falling!

Seriously, did you just start watching the Patriots play the day we beat the Rams? Your expectations that a team should win a Super Bowl every 5 years are simply ridiculous, and on that basis there is no team that could meet them in the history of Pro Football. To have a team achieve such consistency and excellence over the period of time they have done so, and to be in the position of still going to the playoffs in a year where they've rebuilt their defense is amazing. If you can't appreciate and enjoy that, I feel sorry for you.

 

[condon84]

OMG! We haven't won a Super Bowl in 5 years! Oh, there WAS that perfect season two years ago that was essentially one play away, let's discount that. And there were the 40 years prior to the first Super Bowl we won where except for a few brief shining moments we sucked consistently. But OMG! We're only 8-5 and heading to the playoffs again. The sky is falling!

Seriously, did you just start watching the Patriots play the day we beat the Rams? Your expectations that a team should win a Super Bowl every 5 years are simply ridiculous, and on that basis there is no team that could meet them in the history of Pro Football. To have a team achieve such consistency and excellence over the period of time they have done so, and to be in the position of still going to the playoffs in a year where they've rebuilt their defense is amazing. If you can't appreciate and enjoy that, I feel sorry for you.

I suggest you read my conversation with fellow posters from the beginning. It wasn't about "hey, we haven't won the SB in 5 years, we must suck." I'm not gonna flame because I'm assuming you haven't followed the conversation.

To summarize, we discussed why we have fallen off from the elite status we've been accustomed to. My theory has been because of the personnel lose and the replacements not being up to par to the talent we lost. Our draft picks have been mediocre while our FA pickups, aside from Welker and Moss, have been abysmal. We still have a great core of players that are still playing (Brady, Wilfork, Warren, Light, Faulk, etc.) that has allowed us to be a very good football team. However, the playmakers we had when we were winning SBs and the depth of talent we had are no longer what it used to. Football being a team game, a team needs to have good/great football players in all positions to become elite, IMO. We are still good, but we have positions that are not as strong (due to draft picks not panning out or FA pickups not working) that has been exploited this year by other teams.

No where did I expect us to stay atop for so long. I never posted that. It was just a discussion of why we are 8-5.

So if you have your own theory, please post and discuss, join the conversation.