Shefter: The definition of insubordination

[mayoclinic]

That, sir, is the question of the year. He seemed OK last year too. Maybe he was upset about being IRed last year ? Remember they didn't IR him for a while and we thought he'd be back. Who knows but obviously something happened.

I agree it's a huge question. But it started early this season, in training camp, when AD spoke out as our NFLPA rep against an 18 game season. It seemed then that he had a totally different attitude than he had the first 2 seasons. He was also very upset after the Seymour trade. I think his status as an NFLPA rep has something to do with his changed attitude, but I have no idea what exactlty is going on.

But at this point, he's a cancer. Has to go.

 

[jays52]

People are pointing the wrong fingers in this situation.
It's not solely on Thomas. It's more so on his teamates for not holding him accountable for his actions and words. There's fundamentally two types of football players; dedicated leaders and ****y slackers. It is on the dedicated leaders to keep the ****y slackers on the straight and narrow. They need to be the ones who motivate the slackers and dictate the tenor of the locker room. If there is a shortage of dedicated leaders, you get the Patriots we have seen lately. Don't just get on Thomas, get on his teamates.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Ray Lewis loves his boys on defense. Have never heard Ray Ray rip on any of his present or former Raven D boys ...except Adelius Thomas.
Think now we're beiginning to see why Ray said what he said ...."we won one SB and the Patriots won 3 SB without Adelius Thomas".

Belichick needs to remove this cancer from this team for the rest of the season with the message that Adelius should go home and spend his time off with this toes in the air thinking about what it is to be a leader and a winner.
Can't worry about the salary. If this dog is running his mouth to the media the way he is just imagine what postiive and uplifting things he's saying to his teammates and boys he hangs with.
Removing AD from this team is addition by subtraction

 

[DarrylS]

Trying to relate this to Halberstam's, "education of a coach".. and what we all learned about BB.. difficult to find a comparison, LT does not work... but this guy is putting himself before the team..

The outcome, stay tuned... my guess is he will not play on Sunday... and if he is cut at this late stage, it willl not surprise me.

It is amazing that this is getting so much play on all of the media sites... guess Tiger is fading.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Trying to relate this to Halberstam's, "education of a coach".. and what we all learned about BB.. difficult to find a comparison, LT does not work... but this guy is putting himself before the team..

The outcome, stay tuned... my guess is he will not play on Sunday... and if he is cut at this late stage, it willl not surprise me.

It is amazing that this is getting so much play on all of the media sites... guess Tiger is fading.

Well it would shock me because BB would then also have to cut several players to make up for the AD salary cap hit because of bonus acceleration.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

That's kind of like what happens to Ian here when posters keep doing things he's asked them not to like starting redundant threads to get more attention for their POV that the mods have to merge.

For the record his contract was for $7M+ and he's already pocketed $20M in signing and option bonuses. He's only "making" $1.9M this season. Next season his salary will be someone elses problem, although we'll be on the hook for $4.4M in dead cap for 2010 and 2011. That will only cause a problem if both of those seasons are capped, and even then it won't be an insurmountable one.

Belichick has already benched him this season over either attitude or performance concerns. That he will again if those continue to be an issue in his estimation, or he won't if they don't, is what it is. He doesn't really care what they say about him in the media. Ty Law called him a liar and he still started him until he was injured and held a roster spot for him for several weeks. Ditto Drew although playing him thereafter was not by choice...

Unlike the fan base, Bill doesn't make choices based on emotion. And he really doesn't care what you...or we think. Coaches who do don't last long in this league.

given the makeup of the roster, and given the fact that it has been clear for some time now that thomas is gone after the season, would it not have been productive to coach thomas up and get what you can out of him? I mean this event was a no-brainer.....thomas was treated no differently than 3 other guys. why he is the one talking now has more to do with what happened earlier in the season and the realization that there is no way he is here at after this year. do the math, dead men walking behave no differently

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Well it would shock me because BB would then also have to cut several players to make up for the AD salary cap hit because of bonus acceleration.

What happens in an uncapped year? Anyone know?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Trying to relate this to Halberstam's, "education of a coach".. and what we all learned about BB.. difficult to find a comparison, LT does not work... but this guy is putting himself before the team..

The outcome, stay tuned... my guess is he will not play on Sunday... and if he is cut at this late stage, it willl not surprise me.

It is amazing that this is getting so much play on all of the media sites... guess Tiger is fading.

how would you behave if you were a dead man walking like thomas? would you sit there and be the good soldier if you had already been singled out this year and you knew you were history, but you also know you were getting 8M on your way out?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

What happens in an uncapped year? Anyone know?

you can carry alot of dead money. since there there is no lower cap, either, just watch what kinds of players find themselves walking the street this offseason. the roster purges this offseason will be the biggest feature of an uncapped year

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

given the makeup of the roster, and given the fact that it has been clear for some time now that thomas is gone after the season, would it not have been productive to coach thomas up and get what you can out of him? I mean this event was a no-brainer.....thomas was treated no differently than 3 other guys. why he is the one talking now has more to do with what happened earlier in the season and the realization that there is no way he is here at after this year. do the math, dead men walking behave no differently

Obviously BB is smart enough to have tried time and again to 'coach AD up'. Bruschi said as much. I had a similar problem in my last company. Superstar engineer. Key employee. Major critical role in product development. Not performing. Developed a bad attitude. Spread it to others. Talked to him time and again. Neither carrot nor warnings worked. No salary cap so I eventually fired him. He was shocked. Couldn't believe I'd do that to him despite several heart to heart warnings. People's internal reality is often at odds to the real world.

In AD's case he HAS his signing bonus. No matter what somebody will pay him several million dollars next year and a couple years after. What's to lose in his mind? He can play games and still collect every dime.

 

[mayoclinic]

People are pointing the wrong fingers in this situation.
It's not solely on Thomas. It's more so on his teamates for not holding him accountable for his actions and words. There's fundamentally two types of football players; dedicated leaders and ****y slackers. It is on the dedicated leaders to keep the ****y slackers on the straight and narrow. They need to be the ones who motivate the slackers and dictate the tenor of the locker room. If there is a shortage of dedicated leaders, you get the Patriots we have seen lately. Don't just get on Thomas, get on his teamates.

I don't think we're point the wrong fingers. I'm not "just" on Thomas. But he is a cancer at this point, and has to go.

I've said repeatedly in other threads that the team, and especially the defense, is suffering from a lack of leadership (other than BB) at multiple levels. The loss of Pioli from the FO, of McDaniels and Capers (and Weis and Romeo before them) from the coaching staff, and of Bruschi/Harrison/Vrabel from the roster has created a huge void.

Mayo and Wilfork are "quiet" captains. AD's crap would never have been tolerated under Rodney and Tedy. He would have been called out, and put into line. More likely, he never would have pulled that crap in the first place.

I think more than anything this offseason we need to rebuild the foundation of the defense with leaders who are on the same page. You get rid of the problem players before they spread to others, and you try to get foundation players to put in place. Not an easy job, but both things have to be done.

I expected growing pains, especially with the defense. I didn't expect to be questioning the heart of the team.

 

[BradyManny]

I expected growing pains, especially with the defense. I didn't expect to be questioning the heart of the team.

Agreed.

Heck, it's too bad we didn't sign Willie Mac in the offseason to police these youngsters. He'd be a more useful spot on the roster than AD has become at this point.

 

[MassPats38]

how would you behave if you were a dead man walking like thomas? would you sit there and be the good soldier if you had already been singled out this year and you knew you were history, but you also know you were getting 8M on your way out?

If he knows he's a "dead man walking," wouldn't he attempt to play the good soldier to get a decent follow on salary? Wouldn't this be his contract year for his next deal, the type players play up for to show the former team was wrong in letting him go?

Right now, the only effect he appears to have on future earnings is negative, showing he is (1) unproductive and (2) disruptive to a team. That does not equate to dollar signs, and players tend to want more, even if handed $8 million for sitting on their keister for a year.This likely isn't a lottery winner figuring there will not be another pay day.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

There's always a team dumb enough to overpay

 

[BradyManny]

People are pointing the wrong fingers in this situation.
It's not solely on Thomas. It's more so on his teamates for not holding him accountable for his actions and words. There's fundamentally two types of football players; dedicated leaders and ****y slackers. It is on the dedicated leaders to keep the ****y slackers on the straight and narrow. They need to be the ones who motivate the slackers and dictate the tenor of the locker room. If there is a shortage of dedicated leaders, you get the Patriots we have seen lately. Don't just get on Thomas, get on his teamates.

Never having been a part of a football locker room, I ask - is this something a defensive player would need to do, is the locker room divided in such a way? It feels like the veteran leaders on this team - Brady, Faulk, Welker - are on the offensive side of the ball, leaving essentially Vince or Ty as the only guys left on defense (Seau, aside) that know how to work and win in this league. That may be the problem.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I still think somwhere along the line thomas figured there is no way he's not cut after this season, so why take crap from a guy who has to give you 8M the moment you hit the street. selfish? yep, but very understandable in light of a personality conflict

You're getting your concepts confused. "Dead money" is not money that has to be paid to the player when he's cut (à la Charlie Weis' ND buyout). Dead money is the money already paid to the player that was allocated to future years of the salary cap that has to be moved into earlier years.

As a matter of fact, the Pats could probably suspend Thomas for "conduct detrimental," which would cost him $100,000+ per game.

What happens in an uncapped year? Anyone know?

You can cut players with impunity, because there's no salary cap to account for.

 

[Tunescribe]

All this nonsense just goes to show how pro athletes have never lived in the real world. Makes me sick to see it happening now on the Patriots, which was the one organization in all of sports that seemed to have a system in place precluding this kind of behavior. It's hard to believe that players like Brady, Faulk, Seau, Wilfork and Light can't throw some weight around the locker room and put an end to this crap. They should call a players-only meeting and rip into some people.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Obviously BB is smart enough to have tried time and again to 'coach AD up'. Bruschi said as much. I had a similar problem in my last company. Superstar engineer. Key employee. Major critical role in product development. Not performing. Developed a bad attitude. Spread it to others. Talked to him time and again. Neither carrot nor warnings worked. No salary cap so I eventually fired him. He was shocked. Couldn't believe I'd do that to him despite several heart to heart warnings. People's internal reality is often at odds to the real world.

In AD's case he HAS his signing bonus. No matter what somebody will pay him several million dollars next year and a couple years after. What's to lose in his mind? He can play games and still collect every dime.

right, but given the situation and whats at stake, the staff needs to work in a way that puts thomas in a situation to get as much out of him as possible. as bad as it is, the team still need him even if only for depth. there literally are no other options on the bench that will work well enough to get anywhere in the playoffs.

this reminds me of the TBC benching for the 2006 AFCC against the colts. the pats could have used him and his benching was something other than 'putting the pats in the best situation to win' as coach always puts it.

I mean mid-season is not the time to be making examples of 30-something dead men walking

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That, sir, is the question of the year. He seemed OK last year too. Maybe he was upset about being IRed last year ? Remember they didn't IR him for a while and we thought he'd be back. Who knows but obviously something happened.

Perhaps AD was expending more time being the newly elected player rep than the player coaches expected him to be on the field. Maybe he was focused on being a union leader as opposed to a team leader. We needed veteran leaders to step on on and off the field this season. Some guys can lead on the field and even off it by example, but simply don't have the persona to be vocal leaders in the locker room. AD is certainly not one of them since he is proving to be tremendously vocal...

Whether or not he's lost a step (Felger thinks he's still fast on a line but he's lost his burst and that can be a matter of motivation as well as something physical) or not, Bill likely expected him to step up and fill a more vocal positive leadership role within the team, something he didn't have to do when Rodney and Tedy and Vrabel were still here. Guys like Vince and Ty Warren aren't necessarily inclined to be that guy although both appear to lead on the field and by example (work ethic and attitude). Mayo is the heir apparent but still just a second year player and he's had his own injury and rapid learning curve to deal with. AD could have emerged as a big man and go to guy and leader on this team this season, but he apparently chose not to for a variety of reasons including not being happy with a decision this organization made on the eve of the season. You can't always predict how a guy will perform when the chips are down until you've seen them placed in that situation. Amazingly some of the most talented and personally motivated players in this league morph into total jackasses under those circumstances.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

You're getting your concepts confused. "Dead money" is not money that has to be paid to the player when he's cut (à la Charlie Weis' ND buyout). Dead money is the money already paid to the player that was allocated to future years of the salary cap that has to be moved into earlier years.

As a matter of fact, the Pats could probably suspend Thomas for "conduct detrimental," which would cost him $100,000+ per game.



You can cut players with impunity, because there's no salary cap to account for.

thomas' roster option bonus along with his signing bonus are spread out over the term of the contract which runs through 2011. so there are 2 years worth of guarantees payable to thomas the moment the contract is terminated.

the pats would have a hard time with the union justifying fines for conduct detrimental......what conduct exactly? being late for the meeting? then why aren't the other 3 being fined? for talking to the press? doubt it. you have to be a rabble-rouser in the locker room at a minimum and if he isn't than all BB can do is make him inactive and pay him anyway.

what needs to happen is conversation between the 2 about what they can do to get the most out of the situation until the end of the year and then keep it between them. it is the only thing that will work to the advantage of the rest of the team. you can't make an example of someone while giving him 8M on his way out the door