My knock on Maroney and the offense

[Rob0729]

Laurence Maroney has stepped up and filled the void left on this website with last year's departure of Chad Jackson.

Comparing Maroney to Jackson isn't fair. I was a defender of Jackson, but I would be the first to admit that Jackson didn't do much other than about a half dozen or so plays in his rookie season. Maroney played spectacular at the end of the 2007 season and was solid in the first part of his rookie season. The guy has had injuries and some problems getting through the line, but he has contributed worlds more to this team than Jackson has.

Also, Maroney is going to be competiting for the starting job this preseason. Jackson was at best competiting for a third WR slot, but was most likely going to be the 4th WR at best. Jackson had to compete against guys who could contribute more on special teams which is a big factor in who you keep as your 4th or 5th WR. It isn't as much of an issue for starters.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mike Lombardi discussed the Ronnie Brown situation in Miami in this morning's Diner column, and had some interesting thoughts on RB in general:

"Brown lacks instincts for the position. Running back is what I call a “crib position.” This means that the moment your momma takes you from your crib, you have running back skills and instincts. It’s not a learned position, and Brown at times makes me feel that he’s not instinctive with the ball. I bet this drives Dan Henning, the Dolphins’ offensive coordinator, nuts as he loves backs who have a unique feel for the game. The running game is hard to make successful; most plays are designed to get four yards. The success of the running game lies in the back’s ability to make yards on his own, and this is where Miami’s running game fell short last season."

The National Football Post | Diner Morning News: Ronnie Brown

Substitute Maroney for Brown and I think this would be dead-on. Maroney has tremendous physical ability, but I'm not sure the instincts will ever be there. Knowshon Moreno and Donald Brown have the instincts in spades. It makes me a bit pessimistic that Fred Taylor (or anyone else) can "teach" Maroney how to use his talents to run more effectively.

 

[Ring 6]

Mike Lombardi discussed the Ronnie Brown situation in Miami in this morning's Diner column, and had some interesting thoughts on RB in general:

"Brown lacks instincts for the position. Running back is what I call a “crib position.” This means that the moment your momma takes you from your crib, you have running back skills and instincts. It’s not a learned position, and Brown at times makes me feel that he’s not instinctive with the ball. I bet this drives Dan Henning, the Dolphins’ offensive coordinator, nuts as he loves backs who have a unique feel for the game. The running game is hard to make successful; most plays are designed to get four yards. The success of the running game lies in the back’s ability to make yards on his own, and this is where Miami’s running game fell short last season."

The National Football Post | Diner Morning News: Ronnie Brown

Substitute Maroney for Brown and I think this would be dead-on. Maroney has tremendous physical ability, but I'm not sure the instincts will ever be there. Knowshon Moreno and Donald Brown have the instincts in spades. It makes me a bit pessimistic that Fred Taylor (or anyone else) can "teach" Maroney how to use his talents to run more effectively.

I disagree 100%.
Unless you are talking about an instinct to avoid injuries.
Somehow, there has been this misconception created that Maroney has been in some way bad on the football field. I do not have a clue where that comes from. His rookie year, splitting time with Dillon was excellent. In year 2, his rushing average was superior and he was the starting RB on the highest scoring offense in NFL history. Last season he was injured.

If your point is that Maroney relies on his instincts more than most, you may be correct. This is where the MISCONCEPTION that he doesn't hit the hole hard or 'dances' comes from. His running style in instinctual. He absolutely relies on sensing and cutting back to an opening. If you prefer a 'put your head down and bull for an extra yard' kind of back, then you won't be happy with Maroney. If you prefer a back whos style is to find daylight and run to it, then you would be happy with Maroney.

As far as whether he has the proper instincts or not, take a look at his statistic for his career for the opportunities he has had to run with the ball. They are very good. Since he is an instinctual back, and his numbers are good, his instincts are good.

Nice job though finding a negative article about a rb and blaming Maroney of being whatever that guy is.

 

[DW Toys]

Mike Lombardi discussed the Ronnie Brown situation in Miami in this morning's Diner column, and had some interesting thoughts on RB in general:

"Brown lacks instincts for the position. Running back is what I call a “crib position.” This means that the moment your momma takes you from your crib, you have running back skills and instincts. It’s not a learned position, and Brown at times makes me feel that he’s not instinctive with the ball. I bet this drives Dan Henning, the Dolphins’ offensive coordinator, nuts as he loves backs who have a unique feel for the game. The running game is hard to make successful; most plays are designed to get four yards. The success of the running game lies in the back’s ability to make yards on his own, and this is where Miami’s running game fell short last season."

The National Football Post | Diner Morning News: Ronnie Brown

Substitute Maroney for Brown and I think this would be dead-on. Maroney has tremendous physical ability, but I'm not sure the instincts will ever be there. Knowshon Moreno and Donald Brown have the instincts in spades. It makes me a bit pessimistic that Fred Taylor (or anyone else) can "teach" Maroney how to use his talents to run more effectively.

Mayo, Good job in putting this in perspective. Maroney is not a full time back. I feel it's not the instinct as much as vision which we have all beat to death. For all the statistic hounds that try to justify Maroney as a good back, I am not sold. They are meaningless without more input.

This is about 50/50 across the board. It's not that he is not a great kid, it is that he needs a clean slate. Maroney has hit the ceiling about his abilities. He can't change into a back that will fight for the extra yard. If you could put just as an example, a Heath Evans desire and tough guy mind set into Maroney, you would have something. I feel IMO that Maroney has so much ability that he has not had to fight for success his whole career prior to the NFL. He flashes one minute and goes out of bounds the next. No one will disagree with me that he does not like to be hit.

He cannot be changed. He is a 190lb scat back in a 22lb body. Please don't throw stats at me unless you tell me down, distance, team, conditions, time of the game when the yards were measured, personnel package and score. Getting twenty carries for two yards and breaking one off for 25 do not impress me. It's consistency.

I hope I am wrong but if he is kept , and if the offer is good enough he could be moved, I feel he will not get any better. "Feel", "vision", "fear of injury"? I don't know. Something is not right for a first round talent.
DW Toys

 

[Synovia]

Mike Lombardi discussed the Ronnie Brown situation in Miami in this morning's Diner column, and had some interesting thoughts on RB in general:

"Brown lacks instincts for the position. Running back is what I call a “crib position.” This means that the moment your momma takes you from your crib, you have running back skills and instincts. It’s not a learned position, and Brown at times makes me feel that he’s not instinctive with the ball. I bet this drives Dan Henning, the Dolphins’ offensive coordinator, nuts as he loves backs who have a unique feel for the game. The running game is hard to make successful; most plays are designed to get four yards. The success of the running game lies in the back’s ability to make yards on his own, and this is where Miami’s running game fell short last season."

The National Football Post | Diner Morning News: Ronnie Brown

Substitute Maroney for Brown and I think this would be dead-on. Maroney has tremendous physical ability, but I'm not sure the instincts will ever be there. Knowshon Moreno and Donald Brown have the instincts in spades. It makes me a bit pessimistic that Fred Taylor (or anyone else) can "teach" Maroney how to use his talents to run more effectively.

If Mike Lombardi doesn't think Ronnie Brown is a good running back, then he isn't qualified to talk about football. Brown has been one of the best RBs in football despite playing behind a terrible line.

 

[Synovia]

. Please don't throw stats at me unless you tell me down, distance, team, conditions, time of the game when the yards were measured, personnel package and score. Getting twenty carries for t

DW Toys, we HAVE DONE EXACTLY THAT. Look up how DVOA is calculated.

Oh Wait, because you're lazy, I'll do it for you.

DVOA breaks down every single play of the NFL season to see how much success offensive players achieved in each specific situation compared to the league average in that situation, adjusted for the strength of the opponent.

IE, it takes runs on 3rd and 4 inside the 20, and compares them against other runs on 3rd and 4, inside the 20, and adjust to strength of opponent's defense.

Maroney rates out fantastically. You just dislike the guy so much that you can not think objectively.

 

[alvinnf]

Third qtr after picking up 8 on a screen against the Giants. Maroney failed to pick up 2 yds on back to back plays, punt. That's all we need to know about Maroney. If you can't get the dirty 2 yds, and the first. I don't care if you can take one the distance.

 

[BradyFTW!]

If Mike Lombardi doesn't think Ronnie Brown is a good running back, then he isn't qualified to talk about football. Brown has been one of the best RBs in football despite playing behind a terrible line.

I dunno, when he was running for 113 yards and 4 TDs on 16 carries against us, I know I was thinking "it's a good thing he doesn't have football instincts"...

 

[BradyFTW!]

Third qtr after picking up 8 on a screen against the Giants. Maroney failed to pick up 2 yds on back to back plays, punt. That's all we need to know about Maroney. If you can't get the dirty 2 yds, and the first. I don't care if you can take one the distance.

Except he can do that. He does it very effectively, actually.

By the same token, I guess you think that Warrick Dunn, Kevin Faulk, and Barry Sanders were all crappy RBs? Not to say that Maroney has much in common with any of them, but they weren't exactly vaunted for their "always gets 2 yards" type of games...

 

[Synovia]

Third qtr after picking up 8 on a screen against the Giants. Maroney failed to pick up 2 yds on back to back plays, punt. That's all we need to know about Maroney. If you can't get the dirty 2 yds, and the first. I don't care if you can take one the distance.

Name a running back. I'm sure I can find a place where he failed on back to back carries. Walter Payton, Jim Brown, anyone.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I feel IMO that Maroney has so much ability that he has not had to fight for success his whole career prior to the NFL.

Just a pet peeve of mine but, barring extreme cases, I have a hard time buying the argument that first-round running backs didn't "fight for success" to get where they are. Even 'lazy' professional athletes work hard. If they didn't, they'd be out of the league. It takes a true physical freak to be pro-caliber without having to work hard and 'fight for success'.

 

[Synovia]

Just a pet peeve of mine but, barring extreme cases, I have a hard time buying the argument that first-round running backs didn't "fight for success" to get where they are. Even 'lazy' professional athletes work hard. If they didn't, they'd be out of the league. It takes a true physical freak to be pro-caliber without having to work hard and 'fight for success'.

Even the posterchild for "not fighting for it", Manny Ramirez, was reported to work out 3 or 4 hours a day.

 

[eom]

yeah, those kind of comments get to be a little ridiculous.

people see success and assume it must be just some kind of 'god given' talent and the guy never had to work a day in his life.
you think michael jordan didn't put in the work to get where he was?

generally speaking, it's the players who aren't as successful that don't put the work in.
that whole 'god given' ability is a crock.

edit: and while I'm at it, maroney has done plenty well in every measurable way, it's just that he's made of glass.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Reminds me of Parcells' quote that he's coached guys who had Lawrence Taylor's athleticism that nobody's ever heard of, because they didn't have the work ethic. It doesn't matter how athletic you are: if you're not working hard, you're not going to be an even marginally productive pro.

 

[mayoclinic]

I disagree 100%.
Unless you are talking about an instinct to avoid injuries.
Somehow, there has been this misconception created that Maroney has been in some way bad on the football field. I do not have a clue where that comes from. His rookie year, splitting time with Dillon was excellent. In year 2, his rushing average was superior and he was the starting RB on the highest scoring offense in NFL history. Last season he was injured.

If your point is that Maroney relies on his instincts more than most, you may be correct. This is where the MISCONCEPTION that he doesn't hit the hole hard or 'dances' comes from. His running style in instinctual. He absolutely relies on sensing and cutting back to an opening. If you prefer a 'put your head down and bull for an extra yard' kind of back, then you won't be happy with Maroney. If you prefer a back whos style is to find daylight and run to it, then you would be happy with Maroney.

As far as whether he has the proper instincts or not, take a look at his statistic for his career for the opportunities he has had to run with the ball. They are very good. Since he is an instinctual back, and his numbers are good, his instincts are good.

Nice job though finding a negative article about a rb and blaming Maroney of being whatever that guy is.

Wow, touchy aren't we? Sorry to have offended you.

We obviously disagree. I've never lambasted Maroney like some on this board, but I don't think that he is the most instinctive RB that I have seen. I think he is tentative about finding and hitting holes, and lacks the vision that separates good from great RBs. I also think he runs too high. He has been productive and I have never been on the "trade Maroney" bandwagon, but if I could substitute Donald Brown or Knowshon Moreno for him I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Deus Irae]

The next person who comes out of the crib with all the instincts needed to be a professional football/basketball/hockey/baseball player already in him will be the first in history.

 

[alvinnf]

Name a running back. I'm sure I can find a place where he failed on back to back carries. Walter Payton, Jim Brown, anyone.

It's an example, Do you feel confident handing the ball to Maroney in the SB, confident in knowing he's going to get those 2 yards. Now you put Walter Payton and Jim Brown in that same sentence and tell me how feel. You know if you need to get 2 tough yards in the biggest spot, Maroney, does'nt belong in the same sentence as Payton and Brown.
Also, I don't think many people stuffed Jim Brown, that was'nt his game, his game was to stuff you.

 

[eom]

well, you presented your example, so I guess the way to go would be to present a counterexample as illustration.
I'll use a bit more than 2 carries --- the '07 playoffs.

you might not actually remember it, but the jags were being hyped up as the pats killers at the time.
the team that would finally bring down new england, so it wasn't some trivial game against a nobody opponent.

2-14-NE 22 (10:14) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney pushed ob at JAC 45 for 33 yards
2-8-JAC 43 (9:03) 39-L.Maroney right guard to JAC 37 for 6 yards
2-3-JAC 19 (6:26) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at JAC 13 for 6 yards
(TD drive)

2-1-JAC 10 (1:27) 39-L.Maroney right guard to JAC 10 for no gain
3-1-JAC 10 52) 39-L.Maroney left guard to JAC 1 for 9 yards
1-1-JAC 1 08) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right guard to JAC 1 for no gain
2-1-JAC 1 (15:00) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

1-10-NE 19 (7:42) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NE 26 for 7 yards
1-10-NE 31 (6:39) 39-L.Maroney right guard to NE 30 for -1 yards
1-10-JAC 46 (3:59) 39-L.Maroney right guard to JAC 40 for 6 yards
2-4-JAC 40 (3:15) 39-L.Maroney left guard to JAC 34 for 6 yards
2-23-JAC 34 (1:16) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at JAC 25 for 9 yards
(35 yd FG no good)

2-1-NE 27 (14:18) 39-L.Maroney left guard to NE 29 for 2 yards
2-8-NE 31 (13:00) (Shotgun) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NE 36 for 5 yards
2-2-JAC 48 (11:20) (Shotgun) 39-L.Maroney left end to JAC 26 for 22 yards
(TD drive on most excellent fake and direct snap to faulk)

1-10-NE 45 (3:37) (Shotgun) 39-L.Maroney left tackle pushed ob at JAC 26 for 29 yards (26-S.Knight). NE 39-Maroney 1st career 100-yard postseason game. 6th 100-yard rush game in Patriots history.
1-10-JAC 26 (3:02) 39-L.Maroney right end to JAC 15 for 11 yards
(TD drive)

1-10-NE 20 (9:39) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to NE 21 for 1 yard
1-10-JAC 26 (8:11) (Shotgun) 39-L.Maroney right guard to JAC 24 for 2 yards
(FG is good)


I think that's 22 carries for 122 yds --- I'll take that production.
as your next counterexample, you could show me the rb's in the league who have never been stuffed.

I wonder if I should check out the sd game....

 

[Deus Irae]

It's an example, Do you feel confident handing the ball to Maroney in the SB, confident in knowing he's going to get those 2 yards. Now you put Walter Payton and Jim Brown in that same sentence and tell me how feel. You know if you need to get 2 tough yards in the biggest spot, Maroney, does'nt belong in the same sentence as Payton and Brown.
Also, I don't think many people stuffed Jim Brown, that was'nt his game, his game was to stuff you.

Pick out the man many consider the greatest running back of all time and then use him to claim that someone else doesn't match up. Great idea, that'll show 'em........

 

[DW Toys]

DW Toys, we HAVE DONE EXACTLY THAT. Look up how DVOA is calculated.

Oh Wait, because you're lazy, I'll do it for you.




IE, it takes runs on 3rd and 4 inside the 20, and compares them against other runs on 3rd and 4, inside the 20, and adjust to strength of opponent's defense.

Maroney rates out fantastically. You just dislike the guy so much that you can not think objectively.

Oh Wait! I guess I missed the game time, the opponent, the conditions and the circumstance. Great stat lesson. Why bother to watch?

Oh Wait! Lazy? Yeh I guess I could look in a stat book to find out how good a player is.

Oh Wait! Yep I guaranty BB has got his stat book ready on Saturday to see who he drafts.

O.K. Cousin. It's fourth and one at the three with :20 seconds to go and we are behind by four. Do I give the ball to Morris, Faulk, Taylor or Maroney?
You'll answer your own question...nuff said now?
DW Toys