Should have re-signed Samuel...

[Mack Herron]

This is a bit like saying the team that drafted 198 should have selected Tom Brady. Hindsight is wonderful isn't it? What was Samuels asking for? None of us know. They felt it was a bit too rich for their blood.

Only if you think that Asante is better than anything we got, which not everyone seems prepared to admit..

 

[Rob0729]

In 2008 the Pats desperately needed but never found a CB nearly as good as Asante. We clearly would have been better off with SAmuel this year, and if they knew then what they know today, they would have worked an extension for Samuel before his final year. People who argued to sign him back then, step forward. Predicting is difficult but, nevertheless, the FO got wrong in this case.

I still don't know if the Pats got it wrong. I don't think Samuel is worth the money he was signed. I don't think the secondary would have been that much of a problem if the Pats had a pass rush. People fail to factor that into the equation. If the opposing QB has all day to throw, players are going to get open. You can only cover a guy for so long no matter who you are.

Yes, the secondary was A problem, but they lost a lot of key defensive players this year. I think Wheatley was about to turn the corner (no pun intended) and I think Adalius Thomas would have made a big difference in the pass rush. Those are big factors in the problems with the secondary.

 

[Nunchucks]

The Patriots went 11-5 without Samual...Would Samuel have won that one extra game?

Loss to Miami- Blowout
Loss to Chargers - Blowout
Loss to Pitssburg - Blowout
Loss to Jets - OT Maybe
Loss to Colts - Maybe

Samuel was a solid CB for us and we certainly could have used his help in 2008, but I don't think his loss is something we need to dwell on.

 

[Rob0729]

Only if you think that Asante is better than anything we got, which not everyone seems prepared to admit..

There is a difference between him being better than what the Pats has and whether he was worth the cost of resigning. I agree he is better than any CB on the roster (although we don't know what Wheatley or Whilhite will become), but he isn't worth being paid as one of the elite CBs in the league. Especially with Seymour, Mankins, and especially Wilfork coming up to contract years and most likely commanding top contract. We cannot get into the cap hell Indy is in going into this offseason by paying multiple players near the top at their position.

 

[condon84]

In 2008 the Pats desperately needed but never found a CB nearly as good as Asante. We clearly would have been better off with SAmuel this year, and if they knew then what they know today, they would have worked an extension for Samuel before his final year. People who argued to sign him back then, step forward. Predicting is difficult but, nevertheless, the FO got it wrong in this case.

True.

My main argument was that Asante was signed by the Eagles to be a playmaker that he was in NE and that's what he's provided for the Eagles. People jumped on me and started to discredit Asane's playmaking abilites and even saying he is an average CB. People seem to not like the idea of ex Patriot players being successful.

I am sure if the price wasn't as high as what Asante and his agent set it, the Pats would have gladly signed him.

 

[emoney_33]

True.

My main argument was that Asante was signed by the Eagles to be a playmaker that he was in NE and that's what he's provided for the Eagles. People jumped on me and started to discredit Asane's playmaking abilites and even saying he is an average CB. People seem to not like the idea of ex Patriot players being successful.

I am sure if the price wasn't as high as what Asante and his agent set it, the Pats would have gladly signed him.

When did people start to discredit Samuel's abilities? Also an average #1 CB is not the same as an "average CB". And your last sentence is what the whole damn point is. He is NOT as good as the contract he was awarded.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Would it be better to overpay at this position, and not the flexibility necessary at others?? This topic has been discussed ad infinitum..

Yup ... What he said ... :yeahthat:

 

[Den-in-NH]

All right guys - forget about the big play. Let's look at a CB's most basic funtion: passes defended.

Samuel had 22 in the regular season.

Hobbs had 11.

O'Neal had 8.

Wheatley and Wilhite each had 2.

The prosecution rests.

 

[Deus Irae]

All right guys - forget about the big play. Let's look at a CB's most basic funtion: passes defended.

Samuel had 22 in the regular season.

Hobbs had 11.

O'Neal had 8.

Wheatley and Wilhite each had 2.

The prosecution rests.

Different systems of defense make such a stat useless for comparison.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

last night's play says it all

discuss...

Correction: They should have re-upped him in 2006, a year before he hit the open market, and after he had already shown a lot of potential. Even Reiss has come around to that viewpoint.

Conversely, I don't see how anyone can fault them for NOT re-signing him at the whacked out market price he commanded this time last year.

 

[condon84]

Different systems of defense make such a stat useless for comparison.

How so? If you are a CB, your main priority on passing downs are to defend the pass.

It's not rocket size dude. It's CBs trying to defend the pass.

You are a CB. You are playing zone, someone comes in your zone, you go cover him and defend any passes coming his way while he is in your zone.

YOu are a CB. You are playing man coverage. You try to prevent passes to your man.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

if they knew then what they know today, they would have worked an extension for Samuel before his final year.

Mack, it's my understanding from numerous arguments on this board, that the Pats did try to sign him to an extension prior to his final year. That would be around the same time that Assante got his "get paid" tattoo. hmmm

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

True.

My main argument was that Asante was signed by the Eagles to be a playmaker that he was in NE and that's what he's provided for the Eagles. People jumped on me and started to discredit Asane's playmaking abilites and even saying he is an average CB. People seem to not like the idea of ex Patriot players being successful.

I am sure if the price wasn't as high as what Asante and his agent set it, the Pats would have gladly signed him.

I don't know that I would say he's earned that contract yet. Its only his first year with them, and he did ok, but imho, not great. I personally am not discrediting Samuels abilities, and I do think he's a good corner, just an overpayed one. My only reason for not liking Samuel, was his attitude about his contract, and money. I like alot of ex-Patriots, but the ones who left in a greedy manner, I simply have no love for them. Branch would be a prime example.

 

[MassPats38]

All right guys - forget about the big play. Let's look at a CB's most basic funtion: passes defended.

Samuel had 22 in the regular season.

Hobbs had 11.

O'Neal had 8.

Wheatley and Wilhite each had 2.

The prosecution rests.

Indeed it does. You have established that defenses had so little regard for Samuel that QBs threw at him twice as often as anybody on the Pats squad. And yes, that is sarcasm.

Did any of those players play an equivalent number of snaps? Were offenses more inclined to throw against the Eagles than run against them? What were the total number of passes attempted against the Eagles in comparison to the Patriots, and proportionally were offenses inclined to throw short, medium or long against linebackers, CBs or safeties? What type of pass rush did the Eagles have? Were QBs under more or less pressure against the Eagles than they were against the Patriots?

If a defense cannot get of the field, numbers can be inflated (tackles, PDs, etc.). If you compare the statistics from two players from two teams, those statistics are meaningless unless you identify the similarities (for example, the number of times a QB threw at a CB) and the result. A defensive back with 5 INTs is looking good, unless the ball is thrown into his hands 20 times and he dropped 15. A defensive back with 22 PDs may be fine, unless he got torched 45 times.

Of the Pats players you mention, only Hobbs played a full-time role this season. The rest were fill-ins or nickel backs. Unless you can answer the questions, your stats comparison is apples and oranges between the two teams and you have done no more than provide arbitrary numbers that may reflect anything from a very good corner to a mediocre to poor corner benefitting from strong pressure on the QB and therefore lousy passes thrown into the secondary.

 

[Den-in-NH]

Perhaps someone can help me out and provide stats on thrown at.

I can't seem to find these numbers, but I know I've seen them. If that info is available simple percentages will tell the rest of the tale.

The point I'm trying to make is that while admittedly, Samuel is a gambler looking for a pick more often than PDef's and admittedly he is a greedy jerk, he would have been an asset to this squad. Would he have made a playoff-impacting difference, I'm not sure. But, I would rather have paid him to stay than have gone through the Bryant/O'Neal saga.

Also, FWIW, I would have made a much bigger play to retain Randall Gay, especially if you knew you were losing Samuel. He's a solid player.

And also, FWIW, be prepared for Hobbs to go the same route as Samuel - I've never met a more "me" player than Ellis Hobbs. The dude is a self-absorbed egomaniac.

 

[ausbacker]

Perhaps someone can help me out and provide stats on thrown at.

I can't seem to find these numbers, but I know I've seen them. If that info is available simple percentages will tell the rest of the tale.

The point I'm trying to make is that while admittedly, Samuel is a gambler looking for a pick more often than PDef's and admittedly he is a greedy jerk, he would have been an asset to this squad. Would he have made a playoff-impacting difference, I'm not sure. But, I would rather have paid him to stay than have gone through the Bryant/O'Neal saga.

Also, FWIW, I would have made a much bigger play to retain Randall Gay, especially if you knew you were losing Samuel. He's a solid player.

And also, FWIW, be prepared for Hobbs to go the same route as Samuel - I've never met a more "me" player than Ellis Hobbs. The dude is a self-absorbed egomaniac.

Ofcourse Asante would have been an asset to the team, but not at $57 million for 6 seasons. The Asante homers don't seem to be able to recognise that or the poor journalism intimating Samuel leaving is the source of the backfield's woes. There's a myriad of reasons, including Wilson & Gay leaving (of which I have stated in another thread).

The defensive progress work has begun. Let it evolve.

 

[Mack Herron]

Mack, it's my understanding from numerous arguments on this board, that the Pats did try to sign him to an extension prior to his final year. That would be around the same time that Assante got his "get paid" tattoo. hmmm

You are misinformed. That tatoo story was created by the media.

 

[Den-in-NH]

Asante's tatoo reads "Get Rich To This" which is the name of a Goodie Mob song.

Goodie Mob is a hip hop group (Cee Lo of Gnarls Barkley fame was a member).

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Asante's tatoo reads "Get Rich To This" which is the name of a Goodie Mob song.

Goodie Mob is a hip hop group (Cee Lo of Gnarls Barkley fame was a member).

Thanks for the explanation, as opposed to just saying I was wrong

 

[MassPats38]

Perhaps someone can help me out and provide stats on thrown at.

I can't seem to find these numbers, but I know I've seen them. If that info is available simple percentages will tell the rest of the tale.

Part of the problem drummed here is simple stats do not necessarily tell the tale. For example, Dre Bly has had statistics that compare across the board to Samuel in virtually all categories, but few would call him a true number 1 corner for any NFL team. Ball hawk, sure. Number 2 corner, okay. But if you look at his career statistics, as teams he played for got worse, his statistics got better. Does that mean he became a better corner in those years or were there a lot more opportunities to get stats?

The Belichick philosophy is a high-priced secondary is not necessary if the front seven put sufficient pressure on a QB and force bad decisions or throw aways. Nobody questioned that philosophy in 2004 with Troy Brown in as a nickel back. The best defenses currently have the ability to pressure QBs. With the abilities of NFL receivers, I cannot think of any secondary that would not be carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey if a QB is given all the time needed to complete a pass. DBs react to receivers, they do not run predictable routes, so no matter how good the DB, he cannot smother a fast/quick receiver forever.

If there is a belief Samuel would have made a radical difference with the pressure put on QBs this year, look at 2005 when there were similar issues. Samuel's biggest contribution that year was tackles, and feel free to look at how badly the secondary got torched in passing yards.

I agree Samuel is a legitimate number 1 cornerback in the NFL. DaBruinz described him as an average number 1 cornerback, and I would agree with that assessment. I do not agree he is a cornerback worth any contract approaching what Bailey gets, and suspect the Eagles will be eating that decision down the road (if not with his season production this year).

As has been repeated frequently in this thread, adding Samuel would not fix the defense issues and simply plugging him in would not return the defense to the good old days of 2003 and 2004. Rules change, personnel change and players age. Statistics do not reflect those factors. For those enamored of Samuel after his post-season interception record, he is not Albert Haynesworth, Shawn Merriman, or the 2000 version of Ray Lewis and makes a defense immediately perform better by his presence.