Should have re-signed Samuel...

[Rob0729]

I can't believe we are rehashing this again. It isn't whether we should have resigned Samuel, it is whether he is worth what he got paid.

If the Pats blew it with Samuel, I say it was two years ago not giving him a deal before he became a hot commodity. What he was asking for then vs, what he got even in NFL salary inflation terms was a drop in the bucket. Samuel was asking for good CB money, not great, but he was still a question mark in terms of production at that point. Ultimately, he got elite money to go play with the Eagles.

I don't think the Pats should have paid Samuel what he got. I'm sorry, but he would not have been that much of a difference maker on defense where the Pats' pass rush was non-existant for much of the season. If he was willing to make more of a cap friendly deal (which he wasn't), then I would say yes.

As for pointing to the one great play he made yesterday, you can argue on the flipside that his dropped sure INT in the Super Bowl cost the Pats that game and a perfect record. But you really shouldn't judge a player on one or two plays.

 

[Scouse Patriot]

Who else watched that game last night and knew there'd be this discussion.....

 

[emoney_33]

Look at Asante's numbers of INT last year with the Pats, he had 6 EVEN THOUGH teams stayed away from him and picked on Ellis Hobbs.

I would like for you to cite the facts, i.e. how often each was thrown to (and their success rates).

Hobbs on the other hand, had ample opportunities to make plays because of all the passes thrown his way, yet he only had 1 INT. Did the front seven play harder when the QB threw those 6 INTs to Asante? Look at Hobbs and Asante's INT numbers the previous years. Again, Hobbs was picked on constantly yet, he produced less INTs. Great front seven's helped DBs inflate their numbers, but UNLESS you are a playmaker, you're not going to make the play.

Has Hobbs been coached not to react to the QB?
How often has Hobbs had safety help?
How often has Hobbs played a deep safety zone where it would be stupid to jump a short route since he's the only one responsible for the deep zone?
How often has Hobbs been in the same situations as Samuel, where it is a good idea to read the QB and jump the route?

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

Here's another food for thought-as much as you guys hate Eric Mangini(for good reasons), wasn't he also the same guy who did an excellent job in developing Samuels and these other young corners like Hobbs?

We can debate all we want about Samuels' value, but has the level of CB play dropped off since Mangini left? I was somewhat thinking about this.

 

[condon84]

The Hobbs haters keep saying he was picked on so much last year and teams didn't throw at Asante but in reality Hobbs was only thrown at 12 more times than Asante. The numbers were 106 for Hobbs and 94 for Asante.

Asante also gave up more TDs. 6 for Samuel 4 for Hobbs.

Hobbs gave up a completion 54.7 percent of the time and Samuel was 53.2 percent.

Numbers like those are ******ed. They're inaccurate and doesn't really tell how players impact the game. It's like when LBs can amass tackle totals but they're well beyond the line of scrimmage. What constitutes a pass thrown his way? Does he have to be within 10 yards of the receiver? Since the Pats use zone coverage, what if a pass is thrown in between two players? I know, and tons of posters here as well, that Hobbs was constantly being picked on. It was a weekly discussion here.

Again, numbers like those are the reason people can write ridiculous articles like this.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

Who else watched that game last night and knew there'd be this discussion.....

If the Eagles played a much more decent opponent, we wouldn't be having this discussion, no.

With that being said, the Panthers' QB and WRs are a heck of alot better than the Vikings'. I can't honestly say Samuels will have much success against Steve Smith, Deangelo Williams, and co.

BTW-in the Dallas game 2 weeks ago, receivers Samuels were going up against had him beat, but somehow Romo misfired on them.

 

[DaBruinz]

While our front 7 helped juiced up Asante's INT numbers, it was because he is a good CB that he made those plays. Again, let me cite Ed Reed. The guy is a GREAT safety, but the Raven's front seven is even more of a pressure defense than ours and makes QBs make bad throws. Now if Ed wasn't a playmaker, he wouldn't have the INTs he has but he is a playmaker. You can't descridet him. Look at Asante's numbers of INT last year with the Pats, he had 6 EVEN THOUGH teams stayed away from him and picked on Ellis Hobbs. Hobbs on the other hand, had ample opportunities to make plays because of all the passes thrown his way, yet he only had 1 INT. Did the front seven play harder when the QB threw those 6 INTs to Asante? Look at Hobbs and Asante's INT numbers the previous years. Again, Hobbs was picked on constantly yet, he produced less INTs. Great front seven's helped DBs inflate their numbers, but UNLESS you are a playmaker, you're not going to make the play.

WOW. No wonder you can't be taken seriously. First off, teams threw at Asante with regularity. They didn't stay away from him and pick on Hobbs. That is just you being obtuse and making sh!t up.

Maybe in the bizarro world you live in.

Really? What exactly did Asante do that was so spectacular on that play that someone like Ty Poole or Hank Poteat couldn't have done it? Did Asante have to jump over the receiver? Did he have to stand on one hand? Seriously, I saw the play and have watched the replay. ANY average corner in the league could have made that play.

No. You factor in how often the opposing offense throw the CBs way and how that CB defends the pass. Teams have generally stayed away from Asante this year. Yes he has given up his share of completions, but again, it's ridiculous for people to nitpick. In today's rules, it's impossible to be a shut-down CB.

Teams didn't stay away from Asante this year any more than any other year. Sorry. But you're just down right wrong and don't know what you are talking about.

The Tyree catch with one hand was not Asante's fault. Asante had the sideline coverage while our Safeties had the middle. It wasn't man-to-man. Asante could have done a better job, but you can't blame that on him. His would be INT was huge. He screwed up there, but you're drawing straws to make you're argument dude. Look at the body of work and honestly evaluate that. Is Asante one of the top corners today?

Thank you for proving that you didn't even watch the SB. The Tyree catch WAS Asante's fault because he WAS in man coverage on Tyree and Tyree got away from him. If Samuel could have done a better job, how is that not his fault? On the Tyree TD, Samuel was the one in coverage. He was the one who STOPPED RUNNING and then tried to blame Meriweather, who was the safety, but lined up on the TE.

Samuel is an average #1 corner in the NFL. In all honesty, I would have kept him at about 6-7 mill a year, but not at 9. he's not worth that.

BTW, if Samuel was so great, why didn't he line up opposite Burress in the SB? Why did the Patriots not use him there all game long?

Adalius is playing the position Bill envisioned him of playing. You can draw your own conclusions.

And you know this how?

 

[emoney_33]

Numbers like those are ******ed. They're inaccurate and doesn't really tell how players impact the game. It's like when LBs can amass tackle totals but they're well beyond the line of scrimmage. What constitutes a pass thrown his way? Does he have to be within 10 yards of the receiver? Since the Pats use zone coverage, what if a pass is thrown in between two players? I know, and tons of posters here as well, that Hobbs was constantly being picked on. It was a weekly discussion here.

Again, numbers like those are the reason people can write ridiculous articles like this.

Yes throw away facts because they directly contradict your assertion that "Hobbs was constantly being picked on".

"Screw stats damnit, my eyes know everything!"

It amazes me how stupid some of you guys think BB is.

 

[Mix]

Numbers like those are ******ed. They're inaccurate and doesn't really tell how players impact the game. It's like when LBs can amass tackle totals but they're well beyond the line of scrimmage. What constitutes a pass thrown his way? Does he have to be within 10 yards of the receiver? Since the Pats use zone coverage, what if a pass is thrown in between two players? I know, and tons of posters here as well, that Hobbs was constantly being picked on. It was a weekly discussion here.

Again, numbers like those are the reason people can write ridiculous articles like this.

The numbers are only "******ed" to you because they show you have no idea what you are talking about and disprove what you have been saying.

 

[DaBruinz]

The Hobbs haters keep saying he was picked on so much last year and teams didn't throw at Asante but in reality Hobbs was only thrown at 12 more times than Asante. The numbers were 106 for Hobbs and 94 for Asante.

Asante also gave up more TDs. 6 for Samuel 4 for Hobbs.

Hobbs gave up a completion 54.7 percent of the time and Samuel was 53.2 percent.

*glub* *glub* *glub* That's the sound of Condon's argument going down like the Titanic.

Thank you for providing that information, Mix. Could you provide the website you got it from? Thanks.

 

[Canada's #1 Pats Fan]

Maybe in the bizarro world you live in.

Watch the replay. Jackson looks at his receiver the second the ball is snapped. At the snap, Assante is his 7 yards off, upon seeing the lookdown by Jackson, he stops in his tracks and awaits the pass. Not only Hobbs makes that INT, but I will also say that Moreland, Gay, Starks, you and me make that INT.

 

[Scouse Patriot]

If the Eagles played a much more decent opponent, we wouldn't be having this discussion, no.

If he never made a pick we wouldn't be. As soon as he made it I could already see a thread on how wrong BB and the crew (quality rap group name right there) were to let him go.

 

[Mix]

*glub* *glub* *glub* That's the sound of Condon's argument going down like the Titanic.

Thank you for providing that information, Mix. Could you provide the website you got it from? Thanks.

Link

The article has been archived so you can't see all of it without paying but the stats are from Stats Inc so they might be on their site somewhere.

Deus Irae posted most of the numbers from the article here though.

 

[Rob0729]

Numbers like those are ******ed. They're inaccurate and doesn't really tell how players impact the game. It's like when LBs can amass tackle totals but they're well beyond the line of scrimmage. What constitutes a pass thrown his way? Does he have to be within 10 yards of the receiver? Since the Pats use zone coverage, what if a pass is thrown in between two players? I know, and tons of posters here as well, that Hobbs was constantly being picked on. It was a weekly discussion here.

Again, numbers like those are the reason people can write ridiculous articles like this.

Hobbs would play solid defense all game and give up one 20 yard reception and people on this board would talk how Hobbs couldn't cover anyone and was picked on and burned all game long. Hobbs wasn't picked on nearly as often as you make it sound since teams picked on O'Neal and whoever else was on the other side far more than Hobbs.

Hobbs is just one of those guys who could do 99 things right in the game and his detracters will rost him for the one thing he did wrong. He was like Reche Caldwell before him who dropped one ball in the entire regular season and dropped two balls in the AFC Championships and was promptly labeled as "hands of stone" or "can't hold onto the ball". Or like Matt Light who plays solidily all season and gets burnt once or twice for a sack by a speedster like Freeney and gets slammed as a mediocre LT. Some players are lightning rod players who get crap for all they do wrong and no credit for anything he does right.

 

[DaBruinz]

Numbers like those are ******ed. They're inaccurate and doesn't really tell how players impact the game. It's like when LBs can amass tackle totals but they're well beyond the line of scrimmage. What constitutes a pass thrown his way? Does he have to be within 10 yards of the receiver? Since the Pats use zone coverage, what if a pass is thrown in between two players? I know, and tons of posters here as well, that Hobbs was constantly being picked on. It was a weekly discussion here.

Again, numbers like those are the reason people can write ridiculous articles like this.

*ROFLMAO*

I love when people like you open your mouth with comments like these. It just goes to show that you are ignorant and can't be reasoned with. You are so biased that even if reality beat you with a 2x4, you'd still say it wasn't true.

Being that I haven't seen the site that Mix got his information from, I am going to take a guess at the answers:

1) What consistitues a pass his way? When the receiver he's covering is deemed the person that is the target of the pass.

2) Even in a ZONE coverage, a player is still responsible for the coverage in his zone.

3) It wasn't a constant argument that Hobbs was picked on more than others. It was people talking from a position of ignorance. Much like you are doing now.

As for KC Joyner's article, book, and the "Science of Football". Some of his methodology might be wrong, but he applies it the same way across the board. So that players are evaluated fairly.

Also, what is wrong with that article? Do you not like it because it put Mayo in a negative, all be it true, light?Did you actually watch the games? Most of Mayo's tackles were beyond the line of scrimmage. And not one or 2 yards.. Wer're talking 5 -7 yards. Now, the difference between myself and Joyner is that I don't damn Mayo for that. In the running game, it speaks of the front 3 not doing their job and controlling the inside lanes and allowing O-lineman to get to the upper level where he can engulf Mayo.

Mayo had a lot of nice plays this year. However, just because he was the best defensive rookie doesn't mean he's without issues. There are plenty of things for him to improve on and get better at. And, god willing, he'll be healthy for the Pats and be improving year in and year out.

 

[cstjohn17]

last night's play says it all

discuss...

I am the biggest Samuel fan on the board, but the Pats made the right decision by not re-signing him after the 2007 season. It was just too much money, they should have signed him before the 2006 season for a modest amount of money. Instead the basically told him to prove he was worth top money, he put together back to back great seasons and established himself and one of the best YOUNG corners in the league.

To summarize:

• My personal Binkie = Yes
• Good player = Yes
• Worth $55+ Million = No

 

[DaBruinz]

Link

The article has been archived so you can't see all of it without paying but the stats are from Stats Inc so they might be on their site somewhere.

Deus Irae posted most of the numbers from the article here though.

I think that Stats,Inc is going to be a site I get a subscription to. They carry a ton of great information. I used to go to them when talking about dropped passes and such. Now CNNSI.com has that information on their site. I bet Condon84 would contradict them as well..

 

[DaBruinz]

I am the biggest Samuel fan on the board, but the Pats made the right decision by not re-signing him after the 2007 season. It was just too much money, they should have signed him before the 2006 season for a modest amount of money. Instead the basically told him to prove he was worth top money, he put together back to back great seasons and established himself and one of the best YOUNG corners in the league.

To summarize:

• My personal Binkie = Yes
• Good player = Yes
• Worth $55+ Million = No

CST - Like Givens and Branch before him, Samuel was offered a contract extension prior to the 2007 season. Like Givens and Branch before him, Samuel turned it down.

There is only so much a team can do.

 

[cstjohn17]

CST - Like Givens and Branch before him, Samuel was offered a contract extension prior to the 2007 season. Like Givens and Branch before him, Samuel turned it down.

There is only so much a team can do.

I don't argue with their value system and I also don't argue with players getting millions of dollars more some where else. Stuff happens.

 

[neuronet]

I agree with this. Asante's 4 post-season Pick-6's is now a league record. The guy is a playmaker and would have made an impact. I agree we undervalued him.

That isn't how the Patriots work. They don't have many super-high paid standouts. That way the preserve the depth of the team. If we had forked out the big bucks for Samuels, who would we have had to go without this year?

Randy Moss could have gone pretty much anywhere at the end of last year. He gave up millions of dollars to stay with the Patriots. He understands the Patriots' system, and likes it enough to want to be a part of it.