Should have re-signed Samuel...

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

Absolutely. the subject has been discussed and discussed out here.

On the one hand you can argue that Piolichick erred in not signing Asante in his pre-contract year when they could have gotten him at a reasonable price and that we lost a player who could have made a difference this year; on the other hand, you can argue that you can't argue with success and that the Pats have done pretty well with their system of not paying top dollar at every position and that everything looks clear in hindsight.

There's something to be said for both sides of the argument; those on side A are not going to convince those on side B and those on side B are not going to convince those on side A.

Let's move on.

Or the Pats could be runned by Jerry Jones-and pretty much LOTS of players will get break-the-bank contracts.

Really-look at what it did to the Dallas locker room over the long haul with all those overpaid egos.

Seriously-I think if we've learned ANYTHING from this year, the TEAM comes FIRST. Sure-it drives us nuts when we have glaring weaknesses that our teams don't bother to fix, but coaching, accountability, investing in the draft, etc come FIRST. You saw the Dallas Cowboys this year...they did almost none of that.

 

[DarrylS]

Or the Pats could be runned by Jerry Jones-and pretty much LOTS of players will get break-the-bank contracts.

Really-look at what it did to the Dallas locker room over the long haul with all those overpaid egos.

Seriously-I think if we've learned ANYTHING from this year, the TEAM comes FIRST. Sure-it drives us nuts when we have glaring weaknesses that our teams don't bother to fix, but coaching, accountability, investing in the draft, etc come FIRST. You saw the Dallas Cowboys this year...they did almost none of that.

Or how about any year for the Washington Redskins..

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Or the Pats could be runned by Jerry Jones-and pretty much LOTS of players will get break-the-bank contracts.

Really-look at what it did to the Dallas locker room over the long haul with all those overpaid egos.

Seriously-I think if we've learned ANYTHING from this year, the TEAM comes FIRST. Sure-it drives us nuts when we have glaring weaknesses that our teams don't bother to fix, but coaching, accountability, investing in the draft, etc come FIRST. You saw the Dallas Cowboys this year...they did almost none of that.

i happen to come down on your side of the argument. my only point was that neither you nor I are going to convince those who think that Asante could have saved our season...or whatever. that's why i think we should just stop beating this dead horse.

 

[Spiral]

I concentrated on AS nearly every play yesterday. He wound up on the ground twice--once while celebrating in the end zone, and the other time when he sat down after injuring his hip. He played 7-8 yards off the LOS on just about every play, and made no effort to involve himself in the defense on any play other that passes thrown at his man. He got credit for one tackle but I didn't notice. Maybe he pushed his man out of bounds after a catch or something. I sincerely believe that he chooses to play only on the left side b/c most running plays go to the other side. I liked him when he played for the Patriots, but an $8M/year player should be more involved than that.

 

[Lampshade]

I concentrated on AS nearly every play yesterday. He wound up on the ground twice--once while celebrating in the end zone, and the other time when he sat down after injuring his hip. He played 7-8 yards off the LOS on just about every play, and made no effort to involve himself in the defense on any play other that passes thrown at his man. He got credit for one tackle but I didn't notice. Maybe he pushed his man out of bounds after a catch or something. I sincerely believe that he chooses to play only on the left side b/c most running plays go to the other side. I liked him when he played for the Patriots, but an $8M/year player should be more involved than that.

He was questionable all week with a bad hip. Had it not been a playoff game I doubt he would have seen the field. You could see he was troubled by it all night.

They threw at him thee times. One incompletion, one 14 yard catch, and one pick-six.

Edit: Sheldon Brown was also playing 7-8 yards off the LOS on the other side.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

i happen to come down on your side of the argument. my only point was that neither you nor I are going to convince those who think that Asante could have saved our season...or whatever. that's why i think we should just stop beating this dead horse.

Or look at it this way too-2/3 of the time players get fat contracts, what do they do? They get fat and lazy, and a big head to boot. Sure-Asante had a solid season for the Eagles, but maybe that's b/c he's in yr 1 of his new contract, and wants to prove to everyone his worth? What if he resigned with the Pats to play more years? Yep-he would start to get too much in a comfort zone.

Like I was referencing with Dallas-it happened with a number of them that got big contracts recently(Romo, Flozell Adams, TO, Newman, SS Roy, Columbo, Barber, and Hamlin)-they got fat, complacent, and a couple of them ended up getting a big head.

BTW-if we want to make further arguments, how about the injuries to Adalius Thomas, Rodney Harrison, and a couple of other key D players? Thomas' pass rush could have netted at least one more win. Harrison's glue to the secondary could have netted another. We can go on and on.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

He was questionable all week with a bad hip. Had it not been a playoff game I doubt he would have seen the field. You could see he was troubled by it all night.

They threw at him thee times. One incompletion, one 14 yard catch, and one pick-six.

Edit: Sheldon Brown was also playing 7-8 yards off the LOS on the other side.

Without Brian Dawkins, that secondary is poopie. Pt being that Dawkins is the GLUE to that secondary-even if their CBs were Deltha O'Neills.

 

[condon84]

A lot of Pats fans are discrediting Asante in this board today. I don't understand why. The guy is a good player and one of the top CBs in the NFL. He made numerous plays for NE and is continuing what he did for us with the Eagles. He's not Deion so it ridiculous for anyone to expect him to never get beaten. But some comments I've read on this board about how his INT last night, any average corner could have made. Really?

On average, when a QB throws the ball over 25 times in a game, some of them are awful and only the playmakers put themselves in a position to take advantage of those plays. The first Ed Reed INT yesterday was a horribly thrown ball by Pennington and he took advantage of it. Asante's INT was not a good pass and he took advantage of it. The way you guys make it sound is that Ellis Hobbs could have made that play. LOL. Hobbs would not have been in position to make that play. He would have been ten yards off the receiver still.

The bitter pill is hard to swallow, but it's idiot to discredit Asante's picks in the postseaon. Is he worth the contract the Eagles gave him? That's all relative. Has Adalius play justified the contract we gave him?

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

There's only one CB in the league right now that I would spend Asante type money on and he goes by the name of.... well I can't spell it right without looking it up which i don't feel like doing but you know who I'm talking about.

To respond to the comment about his play yesterday supposedly showing he is worth the contract, Asante's drop on the last drive on SB42 shows exactly why he's NOT worth the contract.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

There's only one CB in the league right now that I would spend Asante type money on and he goes by the name of.... well I can't spell it right without looking it up which i don't feel like doing but you know who I'm talking about.

To respond to the comment about his play yesterday supposedly showing he is worth the contract, Asante's drop on the last drive on SB42 shows exactly why he's NOT worth the contract.

Less not forget that the Vikings lost that game yesterday b/c they have the WORST coach in the NFL-Brad Childress.

 

[j00fek]

thnx for all the comments guys, i knew this would get people going

 

[MassPats38]

A lot of Pats fans are discrediting Asante in this board today. I don't understand why.

The bitter pill is hard to swallow, but it's idiot to discredit Asante's picks in the postseaon. Is he worth the contract the Eagles gave him? That's all relative. Has Adalius play justified the contract we gave him?

The OP was we should have re-signed Samuel, not do we think Samuel is a decent CB. If you want to argue he is a legitimate shutdown corner and merits what amounts to $9.3 million/year in contract money, have at it. I would characterize him as a legitimate number 1 corner in the NFL and a ball hawk, but his hawkishness gets him burned as well (I cited one example this season). He is not, has not been and will never be Champ Bailey in his coverage skills, and Bailey only makes slightly more than Samuel.

It is an accomplishment for any defensive player to hold a postseason record. I didn't read much of people bashing the record.

How is Samuel's contract value relative? Relative to what? Does his being on the field generate an overall improvement in the defense that gets wins for the Eagles? Did the Eagles' team interceptions or PDs go up from last year? The defense was 7-layers of awful for much of the season, showed 4 good games before the playoffs and the Eagles got in with a 9-6-1 record giving up 17 fewer points on the season than the Pats (who had defensive issues of their own) and 11 fewer than the Eagles did last year without him in posting an 8-8 record. The only reason Philly is even in the playoffs is because of the gift in the form of two other teams including Tampa Bay that absolutely imploded in the final four games to finish 9-7. You have to win in the season to get to the playoffs, so I guess if you could shelve Samuel and play him in the playoffs only for a portion of that contract it might be worth it.

As for Thomas, he does earn his money. The Patriots 3-4 defense does not generally produce high sack totals for individual players, and Thomas was brought in and rotated through a number of different positions last season. He is a difference maker on the field, even if it does not show in statistics. In this defense, Thomas over Samuel hands down.

 

[DaBruinz]

A lot of Pats fans are discrediting Asante in this board today. I don't understand why. The guy is a good player and one of the top CBs in the NFL. He made numerous plays for NE and is continuing what he did for us with the Eagles. He's not Deion so it ridiculous for anyone to expect him to never get beaten. But some comments I've read on this board about how his INT last night, any average corner could have made. Really?

People have been talking the truth about Samuel for the last 2 seasons. Its a huge assumption on your part that people are "discrediting" Samuel. Samuel was the beneficiary of MANY plays by the front 7. Just like Ty Law was the beneficiary. No one is pretending that he was supposed to be Deion Sanders, but the reality is that Samuel got burned as much as he made plays when he was with the Pats.

On average, when a QB throws the ball over 25 times in a game, some of them are awful and only the playmakers put themselves in a position to take advantage of those plays. The first Ed Reed INT yesterday was a horribly thrown ball by Pennington and he took advantage of it. Asante's INT was not a good pass and he took advantage of it. The way you guys make it sound is that Ellis Hobbs could have made that play. LOL. Hobbs would not have been in position to make that play. He would have been ten yards off the receiver still.

Yes, Ellis Hobbs would have made that interception. So would Hank Poteat, Ty Poole, and Otis Smith. I won't say Earthwind Moreland, because that would be pushing it.

The bitter pill is hard to swallow, but it's idiot to discredit Asante's picks in the postseaon. Is he worth the contract the Eagles gave him? That's all relative. Has Adalius play justified the contract we gave him?

So, if a CB plays 20 post-season games and gets 4 picks, those 4 picks indicate he's a better CB than someone who gets 3 picks in 5 post season games? Not in my book.

I noticed how you blatantly ignored the mention of David Tyree burning Samuel twice last year and how Samuel dropped the game winning interception. Funny thing about that.

Yes, in my eyes, Adalius HAS justified the contract the Pats gave him. Especially since he came in and played out of position for most of last year.

 

[DaBruinz]

Less not forget that the Vikings lost that game yesterday b/c they have the WORST coach in the NFL-Brad Childress.

Hey now. Herm Edwards is insulted that you are giving his Title away to someone like Brad Childress.

 

[condon84]

People have been talking the truth about Samuel for the last 2 seasons. Its a huge assumption on your part that people are "discrediting" Samuel. Samuel was the beneficiary of MANY plays by the front 7. Just like Ty Law was the beneficiary. No one is pretending that he was supposed to be Deion Sanders, but the reality is that Samuel got burned as much as he made plays when he was with the Pats.

While our front 7 helped juiced up Asante's INT numbers, it was because he is a good CB that he made those plays. Again, let me cite Ed Reed. The guy is a GREAT safety, but the Raven's front seven is even more of a pressure defense than ours and makes QBs make bad throws. Now if Ed wasn't a playmaker, he wouldn't have the INTs he has but he is a playmaker. You can't descridet him. Look at Asante's numbers of INT last year with the Pats, he had 6 EVEN THOUGH teams stayed away from him and picked on Ellis Hobbs. Hobbs on the other hand, had ample opportunities to make plays because of all the passes thrown his way, yet he only had 1 INT. Did the front seven play harder when the QB threw those 6 INTs to Asante? Look at Hobbs and Asante's INT numbers the previous years. Again, Hobbs was picked on constantly yet, he produced less INTs. Great front seven's helped DBs inflate their numbers, but UNLESS you are a playmaker, you're not going to make the play.

Yes, Ellis Hobbs would have made that interception. So would Hank Poteat, Ty Poole, and Otis Smith. I won't say Earthwind Moreland, because that would be pushing it.

Maybe in the bizarro world you live in.

So, if a CB plays 20 post-season games and gets 4 picks, those 4 picks indicate he's a better CB than someone who gets 3 picks in 5 post season games? Not in my book.

No. You factor in how often the opposing offense throw the CBs way and how that CB defends the pass. Teams have generally stayed away from Asante this year. Yes he has given up his share of completions, but again, it's ridiculous for people to nitpick. In today's rules, it's impossible to be a shut-down CB.

I noticed how you blatantly ignored the mention of David Tyree burning Samuel twice last year and how Samuel dropped the game winning interception. Funny thing about that.

The Tyree catch with one hand was not Asante's fault. Asante had the sideline coverage while our Safeties had the middle. It wasn't man-to-man. Asante could have done a better job, but you can't blame that on him. His would be INT was huge. He screwed up there, but you're drawing straws to make you're argument dude. Look at the body of work and honestly evaluate that. Is Asante one of the top corners today?

Yes, in my eyes, Adalius HAS justified the contract the Pats gave him. Especially since he came in and played out of position for most of last year.

Adalius is playing the position Bill envisioned him of playing. You can draw your own conclusions.

 

[condon84]

How is Samuel's contract value relative? Relative to what? Does his being on the field generate an overall improvement in the defense that gets wins for the Eagles? Did the Eagles' team interceptions or PDs go up from last year? The defense was 7-layers of awful for much of the season, showed 4 good games before the playoffs and the Eagles got in with a 9-6-1 record giving up 17 fewer points on the season than the Pats (who had defensive issues of their own) and 11 fewer than the Eagles did last year without him in posting an 8-8 record. The only reason Philly is even in the playoffs is because of the gift in the form of two other teams including Tampa Bay that absolutely imploded in the final four games to finish 9-7. You have to win in the season to get to the playoffs, so I guess if you could shelve Samuel and play him in the playoffs only for a portion of that contract it might be worth it.

As for Thomas, he does earn his money. The Patriots 3-4 defense does not generally produce high sack totals for individual players, and Thomas was brought in and rotated through a number of different positions last season. He is a difference maker on the field, even if it does not show in statistics. In this defense, Thomas over Samuel hands down.

His value is relative to how the defense expects the CBs to play and what kind of plays they're expected to make. With the Eagles, since they play a zone blitzing scheme, QBs are generally called on to make quick decisions based on the "zones" that are left open. CBs in that scheme need to be able to break to the ball and deflect/intercept passes. This is why the Eagles felt that his value is high. You look at a Tampa 2 defense where the CBs are called on to cover ths sideline with safety help on top. CBs aren't valued as highly in this scheme and that's why the Colts or Tampa Bay do not overpay for CBs. So a CBs worth is relative to what defense they're in. Obviously, the Eagles thought Asante was worth it.

 

[The_Riddler]

I still have confidence in Wilhite and Wheatley, they'll be fine. They just need some reps. Wilhite made major strides in these last 3-4 games.

 

[Deus Irae]

While our front 7 helped juiced up Asante's INT numbers, it was because he is a good CB that he made those plays. Again, let me cite Ed Reed. The guy is a GREAT safety, but the Raven's front seven is even more of a pressure defense than ours and makes QBs make bad throws. Now if Ed wasn't a playmaker, he wouldn't have the INTs he has but he is a playmaker. You can't descridet him. Look at Asante's numbers of INT last year with the Pats, he had 6 EVEN THOUGH teams stayed away from him and picked on Ellis Hobbs. Hobbs on the other hand, had ample opportunities to make plays because of all the passes thrown his way, yet he only had 1 INT. Did the front seven play harder when the QB threw those 6 INTs to Asante? Look at Hobbs and Asante's INT numbers the previous years. Again, Hobbs was picked on constantly yet, he produced less INTs. Great front seven's helped DBs inflate their numbers, but UNLESS you are a playmaker, you're not going to make the play.

Hobbs has played 4 seasons, and has 9 interceptions in that time. Samuels had his 10 interception season in year 4, to give him 16 interceptions in 4 seasons. Both players had 6 interceptions in their first 3 seasons.

 

[Mix]

Look at Asante's numbers of INT last year with the Pats, he had 6 EVEN THOUGH teams stayed away from him and picked on Ellis Hobbs. Hobbs on the other hand, had ample opportunities to make plays because of all the passes thrown his way, yet he only had 1 INT. Did the front seven play harder when the QB threw those 6 INTs to Asante? Look at Hobbs and Asante's INT numbers the previous years. Again, Hobbs was picked on constantly yet, he produced less INTs.

The Hobbs haters keep saying he was picked on so much last year and teams didn't throw at Asante but in reality Hobbs was only thrown at 12 more times than Asante. The numbers were 106 for Hobbs and 94 for Asante.

Asante also gave up more TDs. 6 for Samuel 4 for Hobbs.

Hobbs gave up a completion 54.7 percent of the time and Samuel was 53.2 percent.

 

[drew4008]

Good riddance to that thug.