Why do we give Gostowski a pass for how unclutch he has been in the playoffs?

[ctpatsfan77]

We’re fortunate to have gone 2 decades with AV and ghost. Just look at Tampa, using a 2nd rounder on Aguayo and cutting him a year later.

To be fair to Aguayo, the problem was that he got undeserved hype as the best college kicker of all time, when he clearly didn't merit that title.

As but one example of what I mean—in his junior season, he went just 4/7 in the 40s, and 1/3 from 50+. By comparison, Gostkowski, in his senior season at Memphis, was 7/7 from the 40s and 3/3 from 50+. [That said, Gostkowski had three misses that season, all in the mid-to-high 30s.]

 

[Angelpats]

Who is "slamming" AV?

Also, how many XPs did AV have to make from the 15 yard line? All of Ghosts XPs for the last 3 years have been 33 yard FGs

Anyone who denies how good AV had been for us.

We are 12th in the league is xp percentage. He missed one in our last Super Bowl and a field goal that was even closer. He is good, 3rd best in the league now, but let him kick some Super Bowl game winners before calling him our best kicker ever. It’s also missed an xp in the Falcons SB that forced us to go for two 3 point conversions.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Anyone who denies how good AV had been for us.

We are 12th in the league is xp percentage. He missed one in our last Super Bowl and a field goal that was even closer. He is good, 3rd best in the league now, but let him kick some Super Bowl game winners before calling him our best kicker ever. It’s also missed an xp in the Falcons SB that forced us to go for two 3 point conversions.

I don't think anyone is trying to claim he's superior to Vinatieri, I'm certainly not. Adam is used as an example because he had misses himself in the playoffs. He missed a 31 yard FG against Carolina, that's a shorter kick than the new XPs.

There's simply a hypocrisy to this:

Vinatieri misses two FGs in Super Bowl 38, then makes the game winner: clutch.

Gostkowski misses a FG and XP in Super Bowl, then doesn't get a chance to kick the game winner: not clutch.

 

[Bruins29]

Anyone who denies how good AV had been for us.

We are 12th in the league is xp percentage. He missed one in our last Super Bowl and a field goal that was even closer. He is good, 3rd best in the league now, but let him kick some Super Bowl game winners before calling him our best kicker ever. It’s also missed an xp in the Falcons SB that forced us to go for two 3 point conversions.

Please point out a poster who has denied how good AV has been. And that BTW has nothing to do with pointing out his misses.

Also, I will ask again, how many 33 yard PATs did AV attempt in his career?

Also, who decided that kicking SB game winners determines the GOAT kicker?

Also, its not surprising Ghost does not have the leagues highest FG % rating. He is on the highest scoring team in the league (Ghost has a lot to do with that too) and kicks more PATs than any other kicker.

Also, if AVs stats were better than Ghosts that is the first place the AV lovers would go to prove some point they are trying to make. Instead, they have to rely on cherry picking, strawmanning and moving goal posts.

 

[captain stone]

Fair enough. Who do you sign and bring in to compete??

The good ones have already been taken of course, so this guy seems like the best available:

Patrick Murray - Unsigned Free Agent - 2018 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

 

[Joey007]

Woodhead had a long rushing TD called back late in the game the gave the Pats the lead because of a bogus hold at the line of scrimmage by Gronk. That was a really bad call.

Might have been one of the most frustrating losses I can remember due to how fluky it was. God that pissed me off.

 

[Angelpats]

Please point out a poster who has denied how good AV has been. And that BTW has nothing to do with pointing out his misses.

Also, I will ask again, how many 33 yard PATs did AV attempt in his career?

Also, who decided that kicking SB game winners determines the GOAT kicker?

Also, its not surprising Ghost does not have the leagues highest FG % rating. He is on the highest scoring team in the league (Ghost has a lot to do with that too) and kicks more PATs than any other kicker.

Also, if AVs stats were better than Ghosts that is the first place the AV lovers would go to prove some point they are trying to make. Instead, they have to rely on cherry picking, strawmanning and moving goal posts.

Well it seems like you don’t appreciate what AV has done for us.

He has kicked about 100 33yd XP’s.

Hall of fame voters will decide that.

You are wrong Ghost is one of the highest % fg kickers. I think he’s too 3.

Ghost has better stats. AV has made more profound kicks. It’s like the Peyton and Brady argument.

I’m not bashing Ghost. He’s the best kicker we can have right now. But to say he has been better than AV disregards what he did for us.

 

[Bruins29]

Well it seems like you don’t appreciate what AV has done for us.

He has kicked about 100 33yd XP’s.

Hall of fame voters will decide that.

You are wrong Ghost is one of the highest % fg kickers. I think he’s too 3.

Ghost has better stats. AV has made more profound kicks. It’s like the Peyton and Brady argument.

I’m not bashing Ghost. He’s the best kicker we can have right now. But to say he has been better than AV disregards what he did for us.

Ghost is better kicker than AV. Sorry you dont want to admit it or can't see it. That is how this works. If you want to say AV has been more clutch, have it it. He has. The team has put him in situations so he can be.

Also, comparing SG/AV to Manning and Brady dosent work either.....at all.

And I am a huge AV fan and closely followed him. You strawmanning this wont work on me.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think anyone is trying to claim he's superior to Vinatieri,

The numbers show that Gost has been a better kicker than Vinatieri, in both the regular season and the playoffs. That's indisputable. One can question that the why (distances, difficulties, etc...), but not the what. One can also note the recent struggles of Gost without going into career comparisons and without denigrating everything Gost has done in New England.

 

[Tunescribe]

Think about it.

I still say that if it weren’t for him, we beat Denver in 2015. Not only does it become a tie game at the end instead of going for 2, but odds are BB has more faith in letting him kick once or twice rather than constantly going for it on 4th down late in the game so many times. So going for the FG and making it just one of those times would have been enough for us to win in regulation.

In the SB against Atlanta, he misses an extra point again. He’s lucky that Tom was able to somehow pull off two 2 point conversions in a row, otherwise he may have cost us another ring.

And then this last year he goes and misses a chip shot FG, along with yet another missed XP. Can’t completely blame the loss on him obviously, but those points add up.

Come to think of it, has this guy ever done anything clutch in the playoffs?

I understand why we haven’t gotten rid of him, as good kickers can be hard to find. (ask the Chargers) But why do we herald this guy like he’s one of the best? He’s folded under pressure time and time again.

Why are YOU getting a pass for making so many inane threads? Give it a rest already!

 

[Angelpats]

Ghost is better kicker than AV. Sorry you dont want to admit it or can't see it. That is how this works. If you want to say AV has been more clutch, have it it. He has. The team has put him in situations so he can be.

Also, comparing SG/AV to Manning and Brady dosent work either.....at all.

And I am a huge AV fan and closely followed him. You strawmanning this wont work on me.

I’m not strawmanning you. I just don’t think stats tell the whole story. We just disagree. That’s all there is to it.

 

[Bruins29]

I’m not strawmanning you. I just don’t think stats tell the whole story. We just disagree. That’s all there is to it.

This isn’t debatable Spin it all you want and say you disagree. SG>AV. Sorry you don’t live in reality.

 

[Joey007]

Why are YOU getting a pass for making so many inane threads? Give it a rest already!

Hey this one is a little out there, but my other threads are more than fair.

It’s the offseason, we need topics to discuss

 

[Angelpats]

This isn’t debatable Spin it all you want and say you disagree. SG>AV. Sorry you don’t live in reality.

Same old you. You really can’t ever have a polite argument can you. This is how you react whenever somebodies disagrees with you. When AV gets into the hall of fame, maybe you will see that stats aren’t all that matters.

 

[Deus Irae]

Same old you. You really can’t ever have a polite argument can you. This is how you react whenever somebodies disagrees with you. When AV gets into the hall of fame, maybe you will see that stats aren’t all that matters.

1. How would Vinatieri getting into the HOF change the reality of the numbers?
2. Where did Bruins29 say that Vinatieri wasn't a good, or great, kicker?

 

[Bruins29]

Same old you. You really can’t ever have a polite argument can you. This is how you react whenever somebodies disagrees with you. When AV gets into the hall of fame, maybe you will see that stats aren’t all that matters.

I have plenty of polite arguments here. What are you my stalker ? Yikes

This particular issue just isn't really debatable without a lot of cherry picking. Go ahead, have the last word.

 

[Triumph]

Since the question posed is not about just 2017, that's not just the raw hard facts. That's ignoring his full career and cherry picking one season.

When you must sugar coat the 2017 season and recent truth with past history you have lost the debate.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

And as I've pointed out in this thread already, when has Gostkowski ever missed a FG in the playoffs with seconds left with the season on the line? He hasn't had those same opportunistic moments that Vinatieri had, so we point out his every miss but forgive or even forget every one that Adam missed.

I'll bring it up again, Adam was 13/24 from beyond 30 yards for the 2003 season, including the playoffs. Had the Pats not gotten in FG range at the end of Super Bowl 38, if the kick never happens and we go on to lose the game, he would have been 12/23 beyond 30 on the season, and 0/2 in the biggest game of the year. Would we still consider him money after that?

I prefer to deal with what actually happened and not what might have happened "had" something else occurred or "if" another set of circumstances had arisen or what we "would" think if things were different...

You're right that #4 is lionized because of the opportunities he had that Gostkowski never had. But, the bottom line is that Vinatieri delivered when those opportunities arose. That can't be changed and that can't be taken away from him. He will be the first K to go into Canton on his first ballot.

Gostkowski's stats are awesome and I am not aware of another K I'd rather have running out on the field for the Patriots...but I still do close my eyes and cross my fingers whenever he has to make a clutch PAT or FG.

 

[bresna]

All of that said, if Gostkowski is such a problem, why has Belichick literally made almost zero effort to bring in any competition? He could easily have brought in an extra kicker, but he didn't.

His hit on the salary cap, year on year, has made it fiscally difficult to cut him. Even this year, the last year of his current contract (Stephen Gostkowski Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap), he'd cost them $1,500,000 in dead money on their salary cap. So if they cut him, they would pay him $1,500,000 and then have to pay his replacement as well. Probably not a smart move cutting him in this scenario, particularly with an unknown kicker.

The big thing will be to see what happens with him next year.

 

[chasa]

The good ones have already been taken of course, so this guy seems like the best available:

Patrick Murray - Unsigned Free Agent - 2018 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

I mean if that fella is the best available, I don't see the team making a switch