What's with the sudden panic over the offense?

[Deus Irae]

Of course there is concern. But how dare the Pats send TB out there with those bums. The best pass catching TE tandem in the league by far (probably in history), a great slot receiver in his prime, another solid up and coming WR, 2 promising WR rookies, a sold receiving TE who just won a SB. 3 or 4 hungry journeymen who now get to play with the GOAT. A surpurb O'line, and as mentioned a pretty solid lineup of running backs. That does not include any sleeper WR rooks or UDFA TEs

Yeah, what garbage. Of course its the Pats fault for not predicting that one of the TEs was going to go on a killing spree. Luckily, the first game isnt this sunday, hint hint....

Some of you guys kill me. Its like if the team does not have proven all-pros at every position or dosent go out and sign the Mike Wallaces or trade for Larry Fitz its the Pats saying we dont care.

Be concerned about something that needs concern. The sieve D we have had the last few years.

Amendola - injury
Edelman - injury, unproven
Jenkins - scrub/JAG
Jones - scrub/JAG
Dobson - rookie
Boyce - rookie
Thompkins - rookie
Harrison - rookie
Hawkins - scrub

Gronk - injury
Ballard - injury
Fells - injury, JAG
OhOh - scrub
Sudfield - rookie
Ford - rookie


If you're not worried about that group, you should be. There's not a single player listed that can be penciled in with any reliable projection of worth.

 

[Bruins29]

Amendola - injury
Edelman - injury, unproven
Jenkins - scrub/JAG
Jones - scrub/JAG
Dobson - rookie
Boyce - rookie
Thompkins - rookie
Harrison - rookie
Hawkins - scrub

Gronk - injury
Ballard - injury
Fells - injury, JAG
OhOh - scrub
Sudfield - rookie
Ford - rookie


If you're not worried about that group, you should be. There's not a single player listed that can be penciled in with any reliable projection of worth.

Every year I worry about injuries. This year its obviously magnified do to not only past history (which I think can even out) but depth. We have seen several years go down the tubes skimpily because the team was just not healthy. I am an advocate of going out and getting reliable players but I dont know how you do that exclusively.

Yes, we know and obviously in hindsight the FO screwed up. WW did not stay, Lloyd is not wanted, AH is dead, and yes, the guys we have now have had injuries.

Lloyd was injured last year and WW missed the playoffs 2 years ago when nobody even touched him. I am not saying it makes me feel better, but injuries do happen. Maybe DA and Gronk will be healthy. Maybe they wont.

My issue is this. Until AH went off the deep end I dont think it was as bad as everyone is making it. Now I think its an issue as a top 3 target is gone from what we had going into this year, which was not super confidence building to begin with.

So with that, I suppose we have to assume another move will be made. My major contention is what does complaining about it do? We have to work with what we have or work with hopefully who the FO manages to bring in before now and Game 1. Or alternatively work with whom they develop. Maybe Boyce, Dobson, and Sudfield become ballers. We dont know.

I am a mortgage the future for now guy because getting TB another ring is all I want to see. So if they have to give up future pics (that would not matter or develop before TB is out of prime) I dont care if it brings talent to the team now.

Again, what would you do? What should they do? I dont think a Fitz trade is possible. Wallace seemed too expensive. I dont even think whats his face from the steelers would have been that much of a an upgrade.

 

[Deus Irae]

Every year I worry about injuries. This year its obviously magnified do to not only past history (which I think can even out) but depth. We have seen several years go down the tubes skimpily because the team was just not healthy. I am an advocate of going out and getting reliable players but I dont know how you do that exclusively.

Yes, we know and obviously in hindsight the FO screwed up. WW did not stay, Lloyd is not wanted, AH is dead, and yes, the guys we have now have had injuries.

Lloyd was injured last year and WW missed the playoffs 2 years ago when nobody even touched him. I am not saying it makes me feel better, but injuries do happen. Maybe DA and Gronk will be healthy. Maybe they wont.

My issue is this. Until AH went off the deep end I dont think it was as bad as everyone is making it. Now I think its an issue as a top 3 target is gone from what we had going into this year, which was not super confidence building to begin with.

So with that, I suppose we have to assume another move will be made. My major contention is what does complaining about it do?

It's a message board. If we aren't going to talk about the positives and negatives, why bother being here?

We have to work with what we have or work with hopefully who the FO manages to bring in before now and Game 1. Or alternatively work with whom they develop. Maybe Boyce, Dobson, and Sudfield become ballers. We dont know.

I am a mortgage the future for now guy because getting TB another ring is all I want to see. So if they have to give up future pics (that would not matter or develop before TB is out of prime) I dont care if it brings talent to the team now.

Again, what would you do? What should they do? I dont think a Fitz trade is possible. Wallace seemed too expensive. I dont even think whats his face from the steelers would have been that much of a an upgrade.

Brady is so good that he'll probably still find a way to make this (at least mostly) work, but it didn't take hindsight for people to see this as a screw up. People could see it with the Welker and Lloyd moves. Yeah, it's probably too late to be bringing in high end talent, barring the payment of a king's ransom or some act of seemingly divine intervention, but it never had to come to this. Smarter offseason/FA work and a better draft approach by the front office, and this stuff never comes to pass.

That's the problem, IMO.

 

[supafly]

Amen to that. I will never understand why Kraft never broke the bank to get Brady a HOF-quality receiver. Imagine what Brady could have done with a Jerry Rice or Calvin Johnson. Look at the production he got out of a past-his-prime Randy Moss. When you think about what might have been if Brady had just one receiver equal to his talent...

In the salary cap era, and even moreso with the current cap situation that is basically almost a flat cap lately, teams will have to be careful as to how they spend their money. That is salary cap 101. Our team has probably been better than any of the other 31 teams in this specific regard in the past 10+ yrs.

The Patriots are a team who choose to try and field the most competitive team as possible now, while also keeping a close eye on the future at the same time. They aren't going to sacrifice winning "now" so that they can be screwed in the future--and I don't blame them. The goal is to win as many games as possible on a consistant basis.

Their general approach has been to limit the QB position at roughly 15% of their cap, as proven in the Belichick era. When you have a franchise QB who costs a lot you have to pick and choose where and how you want to spend that money. It would be very difficult to bring in a WR like you mention at approximately 10-12 million dollars a year. The elite receivers of the game such as Fitzgerald and Johnson are costing even more than that.

All you have to do is look at the teams who are doing this. They either:

1. Have the current luxury of a franchise QB under a cheap rookie deal, such as Kaepernick, Wilson, RG3, etc (which will change soon)

OR

2. They have a WR costing tons of money such as Fitzgerald or C.Johnson and simply aren't winning many ballgames in a TEAM setting

If you can develop a way to manage the salary cap while including the enormous costs of such a receiver AND keeping the core parts of our team together, I'd love to hear your plan. More importantly, I'm sure that Belichick would also love to hear it also.

Everyone would love to have the #1 receivers that ARZ and DET currently have, but last I checked they weren't exactly competing at a very high rate every year either. Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as it may appear.

 

[supafly]

Yeah, it's probably too late to be bringing in high end talent, barring the payment of a king's ransom or some act of seemingly divine intervention, but it never had to come to this.

If you had to pick from 3 choices Deus, which would you personally prefer?

1. Trade a 2nd/3rd/4th round pick in next yr's draft for a more talented/proven receiver right now (It's hard to predict specific players in this pointless exercise, but I'm thinking along the lines of a Jeremy Maclin-- just to give one example. You may have other ideas as to what specific players may fall in between the 2-4 round range). This would enable us to go back to more 3 WR sets, should that be what Belichick feels is the best move.

2. Pick up another TE in the hopes of keeping more along the lines of the current system in place. This would likely mean someone like a Dallas Clark, Evan Moore etc. The cost would be next to nothing, as would the risk. The potential reward could possibly mean picking up some of the lost production from Aaron Hernandez in the joker/move TE role.

3. Stay put with everything in the hopes that we can make the current players work to our advantage, even if that means using 2 TE sets on obvious running downs, then bringing in a 3 WR set for obvious passing downs. This would of course mean that we'll have to rely on some of the unproven players that you listed on the previous page to step up and produce.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Of course there is concern. But how dare the Pats send TB out there with those bums. The best pass catching TE tandem in the league by far (probably in history), a great slot receiver in his prime, another solid up and coming WR, 2 promising WR rookies, a sold receiving TE who just won a SB. 3 or 4 hungry journeymen who now get to play with the GOAT. A surpurb O'line, and as mentioned a pretty solid lineup of running backs. That does not include any sleeper WR rooks or UDFA TEs

Yeah, what garbage. Of course its the Pats fault for not predicting that one of the TEs was going to go on a killing spree. Luckily, the first game isnt this sunday, hint hint....

Some of you guys kill me. Its like if the team does not have proven all-pros at every position or dosent go out and sign the Mike Wallaces or trade for Larry Fitz its the Pats saying we dont care.

Be concerned about something that needs concern. The sieve D we have had the last few years.

This about sums it up.

Also.....Mike Wallace sucks.

 

[captain stone]

Bill, Skippy & Brady now must understand that they need to Run to set up the Pass.
Pass to set up the Run, with our suck-ass receivers, will not work.
If they continue to trot out the same predictable playbook, then they & we are all in serious, serious trouble.

 

[Deus Irae]

If you had to pick from 3 choices Deus, which would you personally prefer?

1. Trade a 2nd/3rd/4th round pick in next yr's draft for a more talented/proven receiver right now (It's hard to predict specific players in this pointless exercise, but I'm thinking along the lines of a Jeremy Maclin-- just to give one example. You may have other ideas as to what specific players may fall in between the 2-4 round range). This would enable us to go back to more 3 WR sets, should that be what Belichick feels is the best move.

2. Pick up another TE in the hopes of keeping more along the lines of the current system in place. This would likely mean someone like a Dallas Clark, Evan Moore etc. The cost would be next to nothing, as would the risk. The potential reward could possibly mean picking up some of the lost production from Aaron Hernandez in the joker/move TE role.

3. Stay put with everything in the hopes that we can make the current players work to our advantage, even if that means using 2 TE sets on obvious running downs, then bringing in a 3 WR set for obvious passing downs. This would of course mean that we'll have to rely on some of the unproven players that you listed on the previous page to step up and produce.

Well, I start by looking at what they've got. My guess is 3-4 TEs and 5-6 WRs, with the final total being 9 'receivers', plus Slater (10 is possible, but that will be cutting into other positions). Barring more bizarre happenings, the following players should be locks, for one reason or another:

Gronk
Amendola
Dobson

which leaves six spots open. Ballard seems a safe bet to make the club, given what we've been hearing about him so far. Boyce was a 4th round pick, which means he's likely to make the club, as well. That takes the count up to five spots likely filled. From there, I look at the rest:

Fells
OhOh
Sudfeld
Ford

Edelman
Aiken
Harrison
Hawkins
Jenkins
Jones
Thompkins

Looking at that group, I'm more confident that they can find 1 TE than I am in their finding 3 WRs. Not only that, but I don't know that the team's going to want to allow themselves to need production from 2 rookie WRs on a small 5 man crew, so I'd be looking at the WR position.

I have no faith in any WR in that group. I'm all for bringing in more, if you can find WRs worth the price.



One of the sad ironies of this offseason is that we hear part of the reason Lloyd was not brought back is the off-the-field stuff. Well, his off-the-field stuff is a dream compared to what we're finding with Hernandez. Bring back Lloyd and you've got 2 receivers you can pencil in for numbers if healthy (Lloyd, Amendola). Had this team played its cards right in the offseason, it could have gone into this season with a WR corps of:

Welker
Amendola
Lloyd
Wheaton
Dobson
Edelman/WR6

along with Swearinger at S.


Instead, their going to have to make do with a bunch of slappies at WR and a S who was getting pulled on passing downs. But at least they got a DE who's not a DE and a couple of guys from Rutgers. :bricks:

 

[mgteich]

It seems likely that we will keep four TE's until Gronk is ready for prime time. The open question is whether the we are ready to risk counting on 2 rookies and Edelman. How many will we keep of the free agents. I believe that the prudent answer is 2.

Well, I start by looking at what they've got. My guess is 3-4 TEs and 5-6 WRs, with the final total being 9 'receivers', plus Slater (10 is possible, but that will be cutting into other positions). Barring more bizarre happenings, the following players should be locks, for one reason or another:

Gronk
Amendola
Dobson

which leaves six spots open. Ballard seems a safe bet to make the club, given what we've been hearing about him so far. Boyce was a 4th round pick, which means he's likely to make the club, as well. That takes the count up to five spots likely filled. From there, I look at the rest:

Fells
OhOh
Sudfeld
Ford

Edelman
Aiken
Harrison
Hawkins
Jenkins
Jones
Thompkins

Looking at that group, I'm more confident that they can find 1 TE than I am in their finding 3 WRs. Not only that, but I don't know that the team's going to want to allow themselves to need production from 2 rookie WRs on a small 5 man crew, so I'd be looking at the WR position.

I have no faith in any WR in that group. I'm all for bringing in more, if you can find WRs worth the price.



One of the sad ironies of this offseason is that we hear part of the reason Lloyd was not brought back is the off-the-field stuff. Well, his off-the-field stuff is a dream compared to what we're finding with Hernandez. Bring back Lloyd and you've got 2 receivers you can pencil in for numbers if healthy (Lloyd, Amendola). Had this team played its cards right in the offseason, it could have gone into this season with a WR corps of:

Welker
Amendola
Lloyd
Wheaton
Dobson
Edelman/WR6

along with Swearinger at S.


Instead, their going to have to make do with a bunch of slappies at WR and a S who was getting pulled on passing downs. But at least they got a DE who's not a DE and a couple of guys from Rutgers. :bricks:

 

[Deus Irae]

It seems likely that we will keep four TE's until Gronk is ready for prime time. The open question is whether the we are ready to risk counting on 2 rookies and Edelman. How many will we keep of the free agents. I believe that the prudent answer is 2.

So you've got 6 WRs, 4 TEs and Slater. That's going to make it tight somewhere else.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, it will. But as of now, I would much rather have the extra WR than the extra QB and/or the extra RB.

It is quite possible that a couple of the rooks and the jags will step up sufficiently so that we keep one less WR.

BTW, I don't think that we will keep 4 TEs' once Gronk is healthy. Of course, I presume that Gronk won't be on the PUP list.

So you've got 6 WRs, 4 TEs and Slater. That's going to make it tight somewhere else.

 

[captain stone]

So you've got 6 WRs, 4 TEs and Slater. That's going to make it tight somewhere else.

Slater can replace the 10th DB.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Yes, it will. But as of now, I would much rather have the extra WR than the extra QB and/or the extra RB.

It is quite possible that a couple of the rooks and the jags will step up sufficiently so that we keep one less WR.

BTW, I don't think that we will keep 4 TEs' once Gronk is healthy. Of course, I presume that Gronk won't be on the PUP list.

4 TE's will be next year when it's back to a two TE offense.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, it will. But as of now, I would much rather have the extra WR than the extra QB and/or the extra RB.

It is quite possible that a couple of the rooks and the jags will step up sufficiently so that we keep one less WR.

BTW, I don't think that we will keep 4 TEs' once Gronk is healthy. Of course, I presume that Gronk won't be on the PUP list.

Slater can replace the 10th DB.

Number issues just with the offensive skill positions alone:

3 QBs (Brady/Mallet/Tebow)
5 RBs (Ridley/Vereen/Blount/Washington/Bolden)
4 TEs
6 WRs

That puts them at 18 even before you get to the O-line and Slater. Cutdowns are going to be a lot more interesting than they could've/should've/would've been.

 

[Joker]

The offense doesn't concern me...when has the offense failed to put up numbers since BB took over?...they have a good line, Brady, good RB depth....the Pats will score enough to win games and challenge for a playoff berth. I fail to see a WR corps that doesn't produce within the team framework....and there is still an entire preseason to get to, with the cuts from other teams providing experience, if that is what is needed. I trust Belechick...so we'll see.

It's the defense that I question....IF the defense takes a step forward from last season AND the new blood proves to be contributors, I really don't worry about the Pats taking the AFC East crown.

Too early to speculate about any postseason success IMO...injuries, other teams injuries,sudden marked improvement by other out of division AFC opponents...I'm not smart enough to speak on that.

 

[mgteich]

I see no reason to keep 3 QB's or 5 RB's.

Number issues just with the offensive skill positions alone:

3 QBs (Brady/Mallet/Tebow)
5 RBs (Ridley/Vereen/Blount/Washington/Bolden)
4 TEs
6 WRs

That puts them at 18 even before you get to the O-line and Slater. Cutdowns are going to be a lot more interesting than they could've/should've/would've been.

 

[jmt57]

I see no reason to keep 3 QB's or 5 RB's.

Agreed: perhaps one (more likely 5 RB) or the other, but definitely not both.

 

[supafly]

Agreed: perhaps one (more likely 5 RB) or the other, but definitely not both.

I certainly agree with this thought. Actually, I believe that one of the reasons why Tebow was an improvement over our past QB3 in Kafka was due to the ability to be more versatile which could potentially save another roster spot, along with also helping to prepare the defense as a scout team QB in practice vs certain schemes.

I think 3 QB's stay, as we definitely still need something of a pure passer and someone with sufficient experience of a couple/few yrs in the system with Mallett.

I don't see both Bolden and Blount making the team, nor do I feel that there would be a need to have both on the roster.

 

[Patters]

As long as we have Brady, we don't don't need any receivers. He's that good.

 

[AzPatsFan]

What's the sudden panic over the Offense?

It is simply Unfamiliarity with the situation, and worry wart attitudes, by some fans.

Seldom have Patriot fans in the Belichick era not known who most of the starters were at a given position. Usually there is an incumbent and a challenger who may be better or not, sooner or later.

But I remember the old Patriots and many other teams today, who have obvious holes at positions, and no idea who will fill them.

Belichick's approach has worked miracles. He signs several middling veteran FAs, and drafts players at the position. He lets TC and sometimes the early season games, to sort out the starting players. The only surprising thing now, is that he simply cut or did not bring back the incumbents, at WR (and DL).

But the talent is there, to replace them, and the entire TC exists to fit them in. Even the AH situation, occurring when it did 6 weeks before TC, allows BB and his staff to react and prepare for AH's permanent absence. The Playbook can be altered, or other players acquired. It is very similar to losing a player to IR and a career ending injury.

The team will be complete by season's beginning, and will be at least mediocre, and probably a lot better than that, at the position in question.

Incidentally, I take the deviation from the usual MO, as an indication that BB believes the team is in very good shape, and improving these weaker positions are just frosting on a well baked cake.