PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

The Silver Lining to the Branch Cloud


Status
Not open for further replies.
OK, after I'd posted, Boston Strangler says he's seen a Borges article about, roughly, that subject. Un-named players, of course. Nothing about Bruschi.

So, Closing Time, show me the other agreements with your quote, or live up to your handle and truly let it be closing time - for you.
 
ClosingTime said:
Perception is reality though and the perception amongst the players is that the Pats have treated Deion unfairly.

This is your oppinion, not the players. Your oppinion is just like Jackson's statement on ESPN "THE PLAYERS HATE THEIR COACH"

I also think you are just as wrong as Jackson was.

You have stated in another Post "BRADY" is the reason for their success.

While i agree Brady is one of the keys to the Pat's success i also recognize that BB is just as important and maybe more important in the long run then Brady is to this organization.

BB is unique in NFL coaching history.

Not just because he is smart, many coaches are smart.

Not just because he understands the Players, many coaches understand the players.

Not just because he understands the game of football, some coaches also understand the game of football.

Not just because he plans for every imaginable problem, some coaches do this.

Not just because he refuses to get caught up in his own importance, no other coach has been so successful and yet so unchanged by their success.

Not just because he understands the salary cap and thus aquires talent based on fiscal responsibility, this is a unique ability in the NFL and no other coach understands the cap or what fiscal fiscal responsibility is when it comes to aquiring and keeping talent that is why most teams have a coach and a GM. BB is the only coach GM to have sustained success in the modern era of football.

BB is unique because He understands ALL OF THE ABOVE and on top of that BB has a PLAN and that plan is unique in NFL history.

Most coaches and FO's go about amassing talent to win titles and hope to be successfull maybe once in a decade based on history. They are all doomed to the Super Bowl and bust cycle of management.

BB's plan is to have a few of stars and a well paid MIDDLE CLASS which give the two or three stars a platform from which to launch a title challenge in any given year they play.

No other coach has the power, the fiscal disipline and tunnel vision required to launch and maintain this type of approach. That is why other teams have said it is difficult to follow the Pat's model.

BB can be successful with this plan because he has a coaching method which stresses the fundementals of football and breaks down the weekly opponets weaknesses and strenghs into two or three manageable and understandable concepts and approaches at each position. These concepts and approaches are then taught to each position during the week of the game.

By reducing the large informational load down to two or three basic concepts he gives his players the best opputunity to be successful on the field.

The players usually respond well for they have had their minds freed from thinking and can go onto the field and simply play ball letting their instincts take over and focusing with thier minds only on the simple concepts and responsibilities they have been taught that week.

What BB has recognized is the difference between the middle class NFL players and the stars in football is for the most part only a few hundreds of a second and that a well coached, highly disciplined and properly motovated middle class of players can compete successfully against the teams built on the stars of the NFL.

From my observations of the BB i would wager that when Brady retires or heaven forbid is injured .....the Pat's will continue to vie for titles, maybe they will enjoy a little less success but i can assure you that unlike other teams that drop off the map within a year or two of success that as long as BB is in charge the Pat's will over time be more successful then any other club in the nation.

That being said the indivigual player will always have to conform to the TEAM as long as BB is Coach and GM and when all the dust settles the players who are true TEAM players will recognize that the Pat's are a team worthy of their play and thier loyalty.
 
Last edited:
Patriotic Fervor said:
OK, after I'd posted, Boston Strangler says he's seen a Borges article about, roughly, that subject. Un-named players, of course. Nothing about Bruschi.

So, Closing Time, show me the other agreements with your quote, or live up to your handle and truly let it be closing time - for you.


LOL, thanks for the mention in your post, however, let me correct one thing. It is Boston Straggler not "Boston Strangler". I am not a serial murderer (or at least I was cleared of all charges).....
 
ClosingTime said:
Remember, you catch more flies with honey thatn vinegar.
Honey? That would be so easy. And here I'm thinking it takes money.:)

Don't kid yourself. This is all about the money. In football, respect is what you take to the bank.
 
PatsFan37 said:
Honey? That would be so easy. And here I'm thinking it takes money.:)

Don't kid yourself. This is all about the money. In football, respect is what you take to the bank.

There are a lot of great football players that would disagree with you on this.

Too name only three, Brady, Seymore and Bruschi.
 
Don't have the time. Follow your team a little more closely and keep believing that it all has a silver lining. Others here I'm sure have the links handy and will inform you in due time.

Browsnfan, in 2001 Troy Brown was still a very very good WR as was Patten, certainly better than Gabriel, who hasn't played one preseason game with the Pats or Reche Caldwell. To myknowledge, Jackson has zero catches in the NFL and has been injured most of the preseason. Very few rookie WRs perform well.
what's insane is that you missed the entire point which is the 2001 Pats offense was terrible. Great D and special teams.
And to think all this was because I said Brady was so damn good he didn't need a Marvin Harrison, Edgerinn James, R. wayne to put up huge numbers.
Funny how all players are great when they are with the Pats but then once they are gome (Givens, Branch) they isntantly become average, slightly above average players.
 
Closing Time
I really think that you are certainly listing decisions on the part of the Patriots that can affect how the players may regard the Patriots. But I think you are way over estimating that Branch or any single player will have really much of an impact at all.

How is the fact that the Patriots will not give Branch any more money than what they think his value is have any huge weight by itself compared to what the players already know full well from Milloy, Law, Andruzzi, Patten, Washington, Woody, Fauria, Ashworth, Givens - and even such icons as McGinest and Viatieri ?? I just don't see how Branch is that much more of a factor.

Even before Branch, I don't think any of the players had any illusions about whether the Patriots would pay them more than what they could get on the FA market. In fact, let me say I think they had ZERO illusions. It seems that they would have no expectations at all but that they would have to take a little (or even considerably) less to resign. There are enough examples that I'm sure you are well aware of. So I just don't see how the hard line with Branch has much of an additional influence.

However, I believe that the way they dealt with just the one player, Seymour, on the other hand, did have a possibly HUGE impact on what the players might hope for. Here was a guy who negotiated and made a small holdout statement and got a top deal. If players use wishful thinking, they will readily DISREGARD that Seymour is indeed a premier player as a defensive lineman. Instead, players will fixate on the idea that you can get more if you play hard ball and hold out. You can well believe that the Patriots were WELL aware of the effect Seymour's situation might have on the rest of the players, but felt that his value put them in a position where they had to accept that problem.

So, while I don't believe that Branch has much effect on other players compared to past examples, I do believe that Branch following right after Seymour is a BIG deal. If the Patriots were to give in to Branch's demands when noone, including players, can think that he is in the top echelon of WRs, it sets a disastrous and immediate precedent. EVERY player coming up on his last year (and certainly their agents) would have to try to get as good or better deal as they might expect (or even wish in their wildest dreams) from free agency and if they couldn't, it would become the standard practice to use a holdout to try to get what Branch did. Absolute chaos. It would result in team disruption around every player in the last year of their contracts for years to come.

I'm not sure if it has been expressed by others, apologies if I don't give credit, but the Patriots HAD AND HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE IN THIS MATTER. They have to hold the inflexible tough line or all future negotiations are huge problems if not impossible. They might get few or even no players who would accept deals at fair value but less than free agency numbers. As it is much discussed in this forum, that is an absolute key to the Patriots way of operating. They HAVE to be able to get a significant number, if not almost all of their players, to play under contracts that are less than the players could get elsewhere. Otherwise, this whole notion of a deep well paid middle class would go out the window.

What I have seen mentioned nowhere but is a really significant problem for the Patriots is that they have little ability right now to negotiate extensions with the other players who are currently also in the last year of their contracts. You know every single agent is waiting to see how the Branch situation is going to come out and wouldn't for a second accept an extension at typical Patriot valuation. If Branch holds out until the 10th week of the season, it may cause almost all of these last year players to go ahead and wait then to negotiate in a free agent situation. That will be a really big problem for the Pats next spring and almost certainly they would not be able to keep many of these players. That would be really BAD.

Not only do I feel that the Pats have to hold the hard line, but I am on record as believing that they also may feel that they have to indeed assess the fines and even go after a portion of this year's allocation of orginal signing bonus to set the precedent that holdouts will cost players something significant rather than just being a 'no cost' option with no downside for the player.

I have no idea if the Patriots took into account the possibility of opening the door to an arbitration when they gave Branch permission to negotiate with other clubs. I'd hate to think they didn't take that into account and feel that the risks were acceptable or even almost zero. What I can guess at is that they may have felt that this was one more aspect of setting expecations for other players coming up insofar as it would show that they wouldn't accept anything other than a VERY favorable compensation for Branch. They may have been trying to show that holding out does not even have any likelihood of getting the Patriots to accept a trade at minimal compensation.

If Branch does not win any benefits from the arbitration, I expect that the Patriots will just let him sit until week 10 and then integrate him back into the team. I have my doubts that if Branch wins nothing that, even if they got a VERY acceptable trade offer compensation after that, that they would even consider it because, again, that would set a very bad precedent.

I really believe that the message the Patriots want to (and indeed probably must) establish is that for last year players, they will only entertain a normal negotation pretty much close to their estimation of player value or the player will have to take the risk of injury. And that they are willing in virtually every case to let the player go to free agency if he doesn't negotiate a deal that the Patriots will accept. i.e. the infamous take it or leave it.

Just my 2 cents worth.

p.s. I agree with you that this probably isn't a 'silver lining' in any way. I see no benefits for the Patriots - only possible difficulties. Sorry about that JR4.
 
Last edited:
....... ....... nm
 
Last edited:
RAWKY said:
This is your oppinion, not the players. Your oppinion is just like Jackson's statement on ESPN "THE PLAYERS HATE THEIR COACH"

I also think you are just as wrong as Jackson was.

You have stated in another Post "BRADY" is the reason for their success.

While i agree Brady is one of the keys to the Pat's success i also recognize that BB is just as important and maybe more important in the long run then Brady is to this organization.

BB is unique in NFL coaching history.

Not just because he is smart, many coaches are smart.

Not just because he understands the Players, many coaches understand the players.

Not just because he understands the game of football, some coaches also understand the game of football.

Not just because he plans for every imaginable problem, some coaches do this.

Not just because he refuses to get caught up in his own importance, no other coach has been so successful and yet so unchanged by their success.

Not just because he understands the salary cap and thus aquires talent based on fiscal responsibility, this is a unique ability in the NFL and no other coach understands the cap or what fiscal fiscal responsibility is when it comes to aquiring and keeping talent that is why most teams have a coach and a GM. BB is the only coach GM to have sustained success in the modern era of football.

BB is unique because He understands ALL OF THE ABOVE and on top of that BB has a PLAN and that plan is unique in NFL history.

Most coaches and FO's go about amassing talent to win titles and hope to be successfull maybe once in a decade based on history. They are all doomed to the Super Bowl and bust cycle of management.

BB's plan is to have a few of stars and a well paid MIDDLE CLASS which give the two or three stars a platform from which to launch a title challenge in any given year they play.

No other coach has the power, the fiscal disipline and tunnel vision required to launch and maintain this type of approach. That is why other teams have said it is difficult to follow the Pat's model.

BB can be successful with this plan because he has a coaching method which stresses the fundementals of football and breaks down the weekly opponets weaknesses and strenghs into two or three manageable and understandable concepts and approaches at each position. These concepts and approaches are then taught to each position during the week of the game.

By reducing the large informational load down to two or three basic concepts he gives his players the best opputunity to be successful on the field.

The players usually respond well for they have had their minds freed from thinking and can go onto the field and simply play ball letting their instincts take over and focusing with thier minds only on the simple concepts and responsibilities they have been taught that week.

What BB has recognized is the difference between the middle class NFL players and the stars in football is for the most part only a few hundreds of a second and that a well coached, highly disciplined and properly motovated middle class of players can compete successfully against the teams built on the stars of the NFL.

From my observations of the BB i would wager that when Brady retires or heaven forbid is injured .....the Pat's will continue to vie for titles, maybe they will enjoy a little less success but i can assure you that unlike other teams that drop off the map within a year or two of success that as long as BB is in charge the Pat's will over time be more successful then any other club in the nation.

That being said the indivigual player will always have to conform to the TEAM as long as BB is Coach and GM and when all the dust settles the players who are true TEAM players will recognize that the Pat's are a team worthy of their play and thier loyalty.

lengthy .... but GOOD :rocker:

a concept that goes to what you were saying is

"We're NOT collecting talent here ... we're building a Team"

That comes out of PATs organization, don't know if was BB that said it.
 
TheBostonStraggler said:
LOL, thanks for the mention in your post, however, let me correct one thing. It is Boston Straggler not "Boston Strangler". I am not a serial murderer (or at least I was cleared of all charges).....

My humblest and most profound apologies! Sometimes it seems, as I'm here typing, these fingers have a mind of their own!

I stand corrected, and thank you for your posts.
 
ClosingTime said:
Don't have the time. Follow your team a little more closely and keep believing that it all has a silver lining. Others here I'm sure have the links handy and will inform you in due time.

Browsnfan, in 2001 Troy Brown was still a very very good WR as was Patten, certainly better than Gabriel, who hasn't played one preseason game with the Pats or Reche Caldwell. To myknowledge, Jackson has zero catches in the NFL and has been injured most of the preseason. Very few rookie WRs perform well.
what's insane is that you missed the entire point which is the 2001 Pats offense was terrible. Great D and special teams.
And to think all this was because I said Brady was so damn good he didn't need a Marvin Harrison, Edgerinn James, R. wayne to put up huge numbers.
Funny how all players are great when they are with the Pats but then once they are gome (Givens, Branch) they isntantly become average, slightly above average players.

Well, it certainly seems you find plenty of time to post!
 
arrellbee said:
......

p.s. I agree with you that this probably isn't a 'silver lining' in any way. I see no benefits for the Patriots - only possible difficulties. Sorry about that JR4.

you mean if BB/SP don't have players holding out any more as a result of
this Branch thing that that is not a good thing, "silver lining"? :confused:

Well, if they go though this sort of thing again in the future with other
players then you'd be right... there was no benefical side effect.
I just think players are going to think twice before the try the Branch thing.
 
ClosingTime said:
Don't have the time. Follow your team a little more closely and keep believing that it all has a silver lining. Others here I'm sure have the links handy and will inform you in due time.

Browsnfan, in 2001 Troy Brown was still a very very good WR as was Patten, certainly better than Gabriel, who hasn't played one preseason game with the Pats or Reche Caldwell. To myknowledge, Jackson has zero catches in the NFL and has been injured most of the preseason. Very few rookie WRs perform well.
what's insane is that you missed the entire point which is the 2001 Pats offense was terrible. Great D and special teams.
And to think all this was because I said Brady was so damn good he didn't need a Marvin Harrison, Edgerinn James, R. wayne to put up huge numbers.
Funny how all players are great when they are with the Pats but then once they are gome (Givens, Branch) they isntantly become average, slightly above average players.

I am new here, and hopefully not stepping on anyone's toes, but I think some of the other posters are correct. You seem to make things up. David Patten is (still) one of my favorite players of all time. By the above statement, you seem to indicate he was a very very good receiver. Yes, it did turn out that way for the Pats in 2001. BUT, coming into that season, Patten had been in the league for 4 years. In that time he had averaged 17 catches for 251 yds per year. I don't think that qualifies as a very very good receiver. Doug Gabriel has been more productive in his early career than David Patten was in his. Hopefully it works out as well for the Pats but in no way can you say that Patten is/was "certainly better than Gabriel". Please stop making things up. I realize you are very busy, but the research on this took me less than 1 minute.
 
CT:Browsnfan, in 2001 Troy Brown was still a very very good WR as was Patten, certainly better than Gabriel, who hasn't played one preseason game with the Pats or Reche Caldwell. To myknowledge, Jackson has zero catches in the NFL and has been injured most of the preseason. Very few rookie WRs perform well.
_____________

Shmessy: I will give you this....you ARE very disciplined in keeping "on message" in working hard to ignore the fact that TE's and RB's are allowed to catch passes.
If you tally the entire offensive pass catching capabilities of the two teams, this team is faaaaarr superior.
Are you new to the sport? Didn't someone ever tell you that TE's and RB's can catch passes?
_____________-

CT: what's insane is that you missed the entire point which is the 2001 Pats offense was terrible. Great D and special teams.
_____________

Shmessy: And somehow they still won.......oh, but they didn't like the organization.....yeah, that ruins the whole thing doesn't it?
_______________

CT:And to think all this was because I said Brady was so damn good he didn't need a Marvin Harrison, Edgerinn James, R. wayne to put up huge numbers.
________________-

Shmessy: Brady, the Patriots and their fans don't give an Indianapolis Nickel of care for "numbers" - - just rings.

However, given that Brady has a far better and deeper RB situation behind him (and a better OL to boot) and you can see why he's been wearing a *%$t -eating grin all preseason.
________________

Funny how all players are great when they are with the Pats but then once they are gome (Givens, Branch) they isntantly become average, slightly above average players.
_______________

We certainly appreciated their contributions while they were here. It WILL be very interesting to see how Givens does in Tennessee and if he makes that $5million per year look well-spent.

And it will be very interesting to see how Branch performs for $7 million per year in a different offense with a different QB.

Honestly, I was upset to hear the Pats offered him $6 million per year - - I don't think he is worth it to us. He's a good little WR and I like him as a nice kid - - but I wouldn't pay him more than $3.5-4/year. I wish him the best once he becomes a FA.

[/QUOTE]
 
RAWKY said:
There are a lot of great football players that would disagree with you on this.

Too name only three, Brady, Seymore and Bruschi.
You must have missed my tongue-in-cheek emoticon. Now where did I put it? :cool:
 
ClosingTime said:
Don't have the time. Follow your team a little more closely and keep believing that it all has a silver lining. Others here I'm sure have the links handy and will inform you in due time.

Browsnfan, in 2001 Troy Brown was still a very very good WR as was Patten, certainly better than Gabriel, who hasn't played one preseason game with the Pats or Reche Caldwell. To myknowledge, Jackson has zero catches in the NFL and has been injured most of the preseason. Very few rookie WRs perform well.
what's insane is that you missed the entire point which is the 2001 Pats offense was terrible. Great D and special teams.
And to think all this was because I said Brady was so damn good he didn't need a Marvin Harrison, Edgerinn James, R. wayne to put up huge numbers.
Funny how all players are great when they are with the Pats but then once they are gome (Givens, Branch) they isntantly become average, slightly above average players.

How many more Superbowls will it take for you to realize the Patriot way of doing business is superior to all?

It's all about the W's & L's - Patirots are the team of the decade and that is fact.
 
Patriotic Fervor said:
My humblest and most profound apologies! Sometimes it seems, as I'm here typing, these fingers have a mind of their own!

I stand corrected, and thank you for your posts.
Not to mention congratulations on his acquittal. :p
 
SteveKiner said:
I am new here, and hopefully not stepping on anyone's toes, but I think some of the other posters are correct. You seem to make things up. David Patten is (still) one of my favorite players of all time. By the above statement, you seem to indicate he was a very very good receiver. Yes, it did turn out that way for the Pats in 2001. BUT, coming into that season, Patten had been in the league for 4 years. In that time he had averaged 17 catches for 251 yds per year. I don't think that qualifies as a very very good receiver. Doug Gabriel has been more productive in his early career than David Patten was in his. Hopefully it works out as well for the Pats but in no way can you say that Patten is/was "certainly better than Gabriel". Please stop making things up. I realize you are very busy, but the research on this took me less than 1 minute.

Good post, SteveKiner. Let's hear more from you from now on. Good points, well made.
 
Closing Time,

Why are you posting all this stuff? Do you feel you have a need to teach us a lesson, or prevent us from believing what we believe, or what?

In Patsox23's thread, I said I didn't understand why people would go to another fan's forum and argue with their fans and disrupt their threads.

I still don't understand, nor do I understand what you hope to accomplsh here. You are obviously not going to convince anyone of anything including that we are lost without Branch, any more than I could convince Steeler fans that in losing Plaxico Burress the Steelers "have no silver lining" and now Randle El is gone, and you had to trade for the Patriots 6th string RB. I wouldn't go to your forum to post such trash and try to pretend you are not a good team. I don't understand why anyone would do anything like that. It seems disrespectful.

So, assuming that you have a reason beyond simply trying to annoy as many people as possible, exactly why ARE you posting all this stuff? I'd really like to know.

ClosingTime said:
Don't have the time. Follow your team a little more closely and keep believing that it all has a silver lining. Others here I'm sure have the links handy and will inform you in due time.

Browsnfan, in 2001 Troy Brown was still a very very good WR as was Patten, certainly better than Gabriel, who hasn't played one preseason game with the Pats or Reche Caldwell. To myknowledge, Jackson has zero catches in the NFL and has been injured most of the preseason. Very few rookie WRs perform well.
what's insane is that you missed the entire point which is the 2001 Pats offense was terrible. Great D and special teams.
And to think all this was because I said Brady was so damn good he didn't need a Marvin Harrison, Edgerinn James, R. wayne to put up huge numbers.
Funny how all players are great when they are with the Pats but then once they are gome (Givens, Branch) they isntantly become average, slightly above average players.
 
Last edited:
Almost gametime here so I will just address brady2branch. I certainly don't think I have ever been disrespectful to anyone in particular here, to the fan base in general, or the Patriots as an organization. I have bestowed tons of praise for the Pats and also some criticism. And I have always let insults tossed my way go by the wayside. It does surprise me how little criticism there is of the FA dealings. I know there is the "In BB we trust" mantra that if they win he must be doing something right. Yes, something, many things in fact, but everything?
And just for the record, I think Branch is out of his mind on this whole scenario. If he didn't like the deal that was offered then shut up, play out the year and hit free agency. He's between a 20-30 top WR in the league when healthy and that is not that often. I just have to believe this situation could have been handled better on both sides, and didn't buy into the silver lining theory about negotiations with future RFA.
AS to why I post here, on aan opposing teams board, well I am from Boston, a Red Sox fan, but most significantly my entire family has converted, since we moved from Pennsylvania when I was 3, to being a Pats fan and most of my friends are PAts fans. So to put it in a nutshell I speak my mind here so I can hold my tongue, to a degree, witht he family and friends. Sorry but I'd rather argue with strangers than ruining a nice dinner over FA dealings. I know it;s perverse but the Internet is all about pervesion right?

And one last thing about the receiving corps debatre thatsomehow got infused into this thread. I think the 2001 and 2006 receiving corps are about equal. THere are many unknowns that could step up and prove me wrong. The point was/is that the 2001 offense was asked to do very little. The 2006 Pats team will have to rely much more on their offense. Oh, snap, I think I just opened up another can of worms by saying the 2006 D and special teams don't compare to the 2001.
It's all good fellas, we can get some Smuttynose, catch some tunes at the Middle East in C. Square and stumble over to Centerfolds some time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


MORSE: Patriots QB Drake Maye Analysis and What to Expect in Round 2 and 3
Five Patriots/NFL Thoughts Following Night One of the 2024 NFL Draft
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/26: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots QB Drake Maye Conference Call
Patriots Now Have to Get to Work After Taking Maye
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf and Jerod Mayo After Patriots Take Drake Maye
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/25: News and Notes
Patriots Kraft ‘Involved’ In Decision Making?  Zolak Says That’s Not the Case
MORSE: Final First Round Patriots Mock Draft
Slow Starts: Stark Contrast as Patriots Ponder Which Top QB To Draft
Back
Top