The Silver Lining to the Branch Cloud

[jimmyjames]

You need to read more then.

Can you please provide links or at the very least the names of the news sources where you saw these quotes? i would be interetsed to read them. Thanks.

 

[ClosingTime]

Do your own reserch and reading. I don't have them handy but I assure you I am not making this stuff up and I'm sure others will attest to it.

 

[patsox23]

I have stayed out of this discussion cause I can't really figure out how it got so messy so quick and there must have been something that happened that hasn't been reported.
BUT, if you think this is going to send a good message to the players, or a message you want to send to the players you are high on crack. This has done nothing but foment distrust and antagonism from the players towards management evidenced by the recurring quotes from 'unidentified Pats players' that 'if this is the way they treat Branhc who is said to be their tyope of player how are they going to deal with the rest of us?'.

Eh. You may be right, but that quote is from a Borges story so I have to question it somewhat. If you want to know what the players' attitude might be, keep listening to Brady. I think between the lines it's pretty clear that he, at least, understands management's position. That doesn't mean they all do, but he's a pretty important piece.

 

[Clonamery]

Do your own reserch and reading. I don't have them handy but I assure you I am not making this stuff up and I'm sure others will attest to it.

No, I think you are lying. I'm sorry I'm being vague about my feelings but you can defintely quote me on that.

 

[ClosingTime]

No, I think you are lying.

That's your right. Have a super day.

 

[shmessy]

CT: shmeesy and the other, I never said any of this effected the way they played on the field, but it certainly has proven to effect the way players react in contract negotiations and free agency.
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Shmessy: So if it doesn't affect the team's performance, we should care because...........?????
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CT: And Bruschi's comments I am refgerring to are much more recent than Miloy. I just can't recall the contect right now.
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Shmessy: And I SHOWED you that Bru has said stuff like that before and it had ZERO effect on how he feels long-term about the organization, Mr Kraft or BB. Why should we care about it this time?
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CT: Again you are confusing two things. It's the same response I heard when Tom Jackson said "They hate their coach". Once the Pats won, many took that as a sign that Jackson was full of chit. but why? Plenty of sports coaches are disliked by their players. Think any player ever liked Bobby Knight? Pat Riley? Larry Brown? Vince Lombardi? Buddy Ryan? an so on? Doesn't mean they didn't win. Doesn't mean they weren't respected. Honestly being liked or hated doesn't have anything to do with winning. It may however, when combined with a FO that does like to play hardball, make it difficult to retain players.
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Shmessy: Who cares about retaining players if we can win with their replacements? What's your beef? Hate to take down your fave player's posters from your bedroom when they leave town. Got news for ya, CT, whether it's a carpetbagger like Randel-El or Mayor of Pittsburgh Cowher, these guys are living their OWN lives. We should live ours. I root for the Patriots because they do things the right way, not like Danny Snyder.

I also haven't had an "Idol Complex" since I was 15 years old.

Grow up

 

[jimmyjames]

Do your own reserch and reading. I don't have them handy but I assure you I am not making this stuff up and I'm sure others will attest to it.

I think you can see by the reaction you are getting here that unless you can provide some sort of back up it's tough for people to take your claims seriously.

I have seen very little player input on to the Branch situation as expected. Part of why the reaction to this whole mess has been so heated on the part of fans and the FO is that airing team business in the press is not a trait of Patriots' teams under Belichick. The only thing I have read in terms of player reaction was about Brady's stint of civil disobedience at the start of training camp and a single line from Mike Reiss to the effect that players understand that this is a business and as a rule it is not discussed in the locker room. While I am not so naive as to think that all Pats Players are blindly siding with the team and the FO on this matter I just doubt that you would find any players saying anything on or off the record about the matter to the press. And while I may be wrong, unless you can show me what you claim to have have read, I think you are just making things up to try to prove a point. Which is in effect plagerism.

 

[Clonamery]

I think you can see by the reaction you are getting here that unless you can provide some sort of back up it's tough for people to take your claims seriously.

I have seen very little player input on to the Branch situation as expected. Part of why the reaction to this whole mess has been so heated on the part of fans and the FO is that airing team business in the press is not a trait of Patriots' teams under Belichick. The only thing I have read in terms of player reaction was about Brady's stint of civil disobedience at the start of training camp and a single line from Mike Reiss to the effect that players understand that this is a business and as a rule it is not discussed in the locker room. While I am not so naive as to think that all Pats Players are blindly siding with the team and the FO on this matter I just doubt that you would find any players saying anything on or off the record about the matter to the press. And while I may be wrong, unless you can show me what you claim to have have read, I think you are just making things up to try to prove a point. Which is in effect plagerism.

Good points and I agree - show us, don't - tell us but it's not plagerism (taking credit for someone's writing or thoughts), it's lying.

 

[shmessy]

Jimmyjames wrote: "I think you are just making things up to try to prove a point. Which is in effect plagerism."
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Actually, that is the OPPOSITE of plagiarism.

 

[ClosingTime]

CT: shmeesy and the other, I never said any of this effected the way they played on the field, but it certainly has proven to effect the way players react in contract negotiations and free agency.
___________________
Shmessy: So if it doesn't affect the team's performance, we should care because...........?????
__________________-
CT: And Bruschi's comments I am refgerring to are much more recent than Miloy. I just can't recall the contect right now.
____________________
Shmessy: And I SHOWED you that Bru has said stuff like that before and it had ZERO effect on how he feels long-term about the organization, Mr Kraft or BB. Why should we care about it this time?
_______________________
CT: Again you are confusing two things. It's the same response I heard when Tom Jackson said "They hate their coach". Once the Pats won, many took that as a sign that Jackson was full of chit. but why? Plenty of sports coaches are disliked by their players. Think any player ever liked Bobby Knight? Pat Riley? Larry Brown? Vince Lombardi? Buddy Ryan? an so on? Doesn't mean they didn't win. Doesn't mean they weren't respected. Honestly being liked or hated doesn't have anything to do with winning. It may however, when combined with a FO that does like to play hardball, make it difficult to retain players.
______________________
Shmessy: Who cares about retaining players if we can win with their replacements? What's your beef? Hate to take down your fave player's posters from your bedroom when they leave town. Got news for ya, CT, whether it's a carpetbagger like Randel-El or Mayor of Pittsburgh Cowher, these guys are living their OWN lives. We should live ours. I root for the Patriots because they do things the right way, not like Danny Snyder.

I also haven't had an "Idol Complex" since I was 15 years old.

Grow up

It's not about Idol Complex or Posters on the wall or anything else besides winning, which the Pats have done, so you make a good point - why should anyone care? because it does and will affect winning. the thing that the Pats are blessed with is Brady, which has allowed them to cover for a lot of their holes and weather a lot of the defections. With the talent the Pats have had on the offensive side of the ball the past couple years their offense should have been terrible, but it's one of the most dangerous because of Brady. the pats have virtually no one to catch the ball this year, dillon is winding down, maroney is already banged up and there are still gaping holes int he Pats secondary but the Pats are the consensus pick to go to the SDuperbowl. Why? Because of Brady. So yes, I guess as long as Brady is playing at the level he has the past three years then how the Pats deal with FA's doens't matter. But when that slipper comes off it's going to get ugly quick.

And jimmy, I don't really care if some think I am making this stuff up. I would assume most have read the same stuff I have and know what I am talking about.

 

[jimmyjames]

Jimmyjames wrote: "I think you are just making things up to try to prove a point. Which is in effect plagerism."
____________________

Actually, that is the OPPOSITE of plagiarism.

oh yeah, and I spelled it wrong. Guess I was a little too zealous up on my high horse. I thought that citing false sources (like in the case of the NY Times reporter) was also considered plagiarism

 

[ClosingTime]

Nope that's just lying, or falsifying sources if you like.

 

[shmessy]

the pats have virtually no one to catch the ball this year, dillon is winding down, maroney is already banged up .

I SURE hope opposing coaches have as bad a scouting department as you would be.

Hopefully Messrs. Watson, Graham, Faulk, Thomas, etc. can remain as invisible to other teams' scouting reports as they are to Closing Time.

BTW, CT, tell me how much better our folks who "catch the ball" were when we won the SB in 2001.

Please......... this should be good.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

shmeesy and the other, I never said any of this effected the way they played on the field, but it certainly has proven to effect the way players react in contract negotiations and free agency.

And Bruschi's comments I am refgerring to are much more recent than Miloy. I just can't recall the contect right now.
Again you are confusing two things. It's the same response I heard when Tom Jackson said "They hate their coach". Once the Pats won, many took that as a sign that Jackson was full of chit. but why? Plenty of sports coaches are disliked by their players. Think any player ever liked Bobby Knight? Pat Riley? Larry Brown? Vince Lombardi? Buddy Ryan? an so on? Doesn't mean they didn't win. Doesn't mean they weren't respected. Honestly being liked or hated doesn't have anything to do with winning. It may however, when combined with a FO that does like to play hardball, make it difficult to retain players.

How convenient...for you! Not anyone else, of course. When we're posting on this board, and we cite a quote or some such thing, we post a link - a verifiable link - as common courtesy to other members of the board. This allows us all to verify what's been said to our satisfaction, check the context in which it occurred, and what it means in the overall scheme of things in the thread.

Your say-so does not make it so. Your arrogant bluffing is not impressing anyone, not is it winning you converts. The airy dismissal of the charge you are making things up with a "do your own research" comes across as prima facie evidence that you are indeed making this stuff up.

Lots of people viewed Tom Jackson's comments with askance for 2 principle reasons: it's extremely doubtful he had widespread insider knowledge of the Pats to make those comments, and the fact that he is a talking head certainly comes into play. I like Tom, but, as with other talking heads, I don't really view their "insights" as Holy Writ come down from Mt. Sinai.

When you're playing professional football, it is not intended to be a "feel good" exercise. There are coaches who pass themselves off as "player's coaches", such as Pete Carroll and Herm Edwards.

Do you really want the kind of team that that kind of coaching brings? I don't, and I'm sure the vast majority of members on this board agree with me.

Before I go, I notice in the above message your start with, "...I never said any of this effected (sic) the way they played on the field...", yet a few posts later you claimed the exact opposite, stating that such squabbles would lead to declining performance on the field. What gives?

Your posting is an excellent exercise in chaos theory, it is true, but you're not really helping any of us out here with them.

Come back to Earth, and let's see if we can't work it out!

 

[ClosingTime]

I give Brady a compliment and you still get upset?
If you want my opinion, the 2001 WRs (or even receiving core which includes TEs) were better than this years, though still not great. But the offense had nothing to do, or very little, with that chapionship. It was all D and special teams. In 2003 and 2004 the receiving corp was vasty better than this roster. but that has nothing to do with this "silver lining" business now does it?

 

[marty]

Simplify your lives people and put this troll on your "ignore" list! I did months ago and I'm better for it(except when people quote him) he adds nothing to the discussion. Wish all trolls were like Ryan the Colts fan, but regrettably they are not.

 

[ClosingTime]

How convenient...for you! Not anyone else, of course. When we're posting on this board, and we cite a quote or some such thing, we post a link - a verifiable link - as common courtesy to other members of the board. This allows us all to verify what's been said to our satisfaction, check the context in which it occurred, and what it means in the overall scheme of things in the thread.
Your say-so does not make it so. Your arrogant bluffing is not impressing anyone, not is it winning you converts. The airy dismissal of the charge you are making things up with a "do your own research" comes across as prima facie evidence that you are indeed making this stuff up.

I just don't have the time or energy. This is not what I get paid to write about (fortunately or not). People want ot call me a liar or a plagiarist ;-), that's fine by me. Others in this thread have acknowledged the recent quote about how the team treated Branch though also expressed doubts as to is authenticity because it came from a Borges article. As a journalist Borges has a lot of warts, and I do think he lets his ego get in the way of his articles but I don't think he would just make something up.

Lots of people viewed Tom Jackson's comments with askance for 2 principle reasons: it's extremely doubtful he had widespread insider knowledge of the Pats to make those comments, and the fact that he is a talking head certainly comes into play. I like Tom, but, as with other talking heads, I don't really view their "insights" as Holy Writ come down from Mt. Sinai.

How is being a talking head, in and of itself, a reason? Walter Cronkite was a talking head too.

When you're playing professional football, it is not intended to be a "feel good" exercise. There are coaches who pass themselves off as "player's coaches, such as Pete Carroll and Herm Edwards. Do you really want the kind of team that that kind of coaching brings? I don't, and I'm sure the vast majority of members on this board agree with me.

Wasn't this exactly what I said, that great coaches don't have to be well liked? My point was that by the Pats FO, which most assuradley include Bellichick, continues,as it has, to show little commitment to its veterans, then they will not receive it back, which is what you've witnesses this offseason.

Before I go, I notice in the above message your start with, "...I never said any of this effected (sic) the way they played on the field...", yet a few posts later you claimed the exact opposite, stating that such squabbles would lead to declining performance on the field. What gives?

If you are consistently unable to keep resign veterans and FAs no longer come banging at the door to pay for your team, the team will suffer in the long run. It's too much pressure on each year's draft to be able to find players that can immediately fill a hole. [/QUOTE]

Your posting is an excellent exercise in chaos theory, it is true, but you're not really helping any of us out here with them.

Come back to Earth, and let's see if we can't work it out!

This may have sounded good to you when you were writing it but it makes no logical sense.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Do your own reserch and reading. I don't have them handy but I assure you I am not making this stuff up and I'm sure others will attest to it.

I can attest to your claim. However, I can say I saw only one article pertaining to "unhappy players" and it identified no player by name. The quote was basically 'this is the way they treat someone who has done everything they ask? They'll have one opportunity to make an offer to me otherwise I am gone' (that isn't verbatim/not a direct quote. It is from memory only.) The writer of the article, as I remember, is ....(drum roll please)......Ron Borges. So we know it must be true. We know he is reporting objectively, has no axe to grind and can be counted on to always be accurate. As a reader of all Patriots news that I can get (projo, herald, globe), I have seen no other such claim written as to "unhappy players". And within those 3 newspapers, at least lately, I don't believe there has been anything that quotes a player, named or not, as unhappy because of Branch's so called mistreatment.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

I just don't have the time or energy. This is not what I get paid to write about (fortunately or not). People want ot call me a liar or a plagiarist ;-), that's fine by me. Others in this thread have acknowledged the recent quote about how the team treated Branch though also expressed doubts as to is authenticity because it came from a Borges article. As a journalist Borges has a lot of warts, and I do think he lets his ego get in the way of his articles but I don't think he would just make something up.

OK, I'm going to make this really easy for you. Here's your original quote:

Why is Bruschi thinking he made a foolish choice in sacrificing for the organization, intimating the organization was not showing the same loyalty to it's players?

Now, I want you to show me who else on this thread has acknowledged your quote, insight, or whatever. Not much research is involved, and won't take hardly any time. Just show me, huh?

How is being a talking head, in and of itself, a reason? Walter Cronkite was a talking head too.

Ahhh, the grand old socialist himself, the one who told America with a straight face that Tet was a disasterous defeat for the US, even as we were kicking VC and NVA butt all up and down Nam? You mean that one?

Wasn't this exactly what I said, that great coaches don't have to be well liked? My point was that by the Pats FO, which most assuradley include Bellichick, continues,as it has, to show little commitment to its veterans, then they will not receive it back, which is what you've witnesses this offseason.

That is exactly what you said. Lack of committment to it's veterans? Like Tom Brady? Richard Seymour? Troy Brown? Matt Light? Etc., etc, ad infinitum. As I understand it, this "lack of committment", as you so blithely put it, seems to extend only to Deion Branch this off season, and the Pats offered him a pretty fair package. Which he did not respond to. I don't really think that's the Pats' fault.

Now, if you're referring to David Givens, then you're talking about a guy who wanted #1 money, even though he has never been a #1 receiver. The Pats made an offer, but not for #1 money. So that's not a sign of disrespect, it's just plain smart financially.

Or, if you're talking about Willie McGinest, then you're talking about an aging vet who doubtless didn't fit into the Pats' plans for the future. You think he was the first one in history to face the inevitable consequences of aging?

Or maybe you're referring to everyone's favorite, Adam V? I assume you're referring to last seasaon's 17th ranked kicker? Even though the Pats offered him $3 million (largest offer to a kicker in history), he wasn't having any of it. Boy, they certainly disrespected him, didn't they?

If you are consistently unable to keep resign veterans and FAs no longer come banging at the door to pay for your team, the team will suffer in the long run. It's too much pressure on each year's draft to be able to find players that can immediately fill a hole.

I wasn't aware they hadn't re-signed any of their veterans, and that they'd all taken off, and that the free agent market has collapsed on us because we're viewed as a leper colony.

Sometimes the Pats sign free agents in the off-season, sometimes they don't. Just because a name's up there doesn't mean BB/SP are interested, and it most assuredly doesn't mean they're a fit for this system. Over time, these guys have shown the world they know exactly what they're doing. This is the prime reason they are where they are, and you are where you are. With all due respect, I'll place my faith in their decision-making skills rather than yours.

This may have sounded good to you when you were writing it but it makes no logical sense.

Given your posts, I didn't really think you'd get it.

By the way, is English your second (or third) language?

 

[Brownfan80]

I give Brady a compliment and you still get upset?
If you want my opinion, the 2001 WRs (or even receiving core which includes TEs) were better than this years, though still not great. But the offense had nothing to do, or very little, with that chapionship. It was all D and special teams. In 2003 and 2004 the receiving corp was vasty better than this roster. but that has nothing to do with this "silver lining" business now does it?

You are so ill informed it's insane. We started David Patten and Troy Brown at WR, had Fred Coleman (!) as our 3rd wide, had Jermaine Wiggins as our TE, and Antoine Smith as our RB. This years offense is LIGHTYEARS ahead of the 2001 squad.

We still have Troy, but now instead of Patten we have Caldwell (who has accomplished about as much now as Patten had in 2001) or Doug Gabriel, and as our third wide we have Caldwell or Gabriel or CHAD JACKSON a second round pick.

Instead of Wiggins we have TWO FIRST ROUND TEs in Watson and Graham.

On top of that we have Corey Dillon and Laurence Maroney as RBs who can catch and run. Not even to mention Faulk or the 3rd and 4th round TEs (Thomas, Mills) we drafted this season.

Talk about needing to do research. Fer Chrissake.