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The Pats haven't won since spygate: setting the record straight


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I can agree that some players don't know but I can't believe that captains especially on the defense do not know the advanced scouting methods or that a program exists for knocking other players out.
I certainly don't believe a head coach the leader of the players and coaches know nothing about a bounty program between the defensive coordinator, assistant coaches and players, just like Rex didn't authorize the special teams coach to trip a opposing player, come on:rolleyes:.
All I'm saying is im a pretty peaceful guy but when I hear or read someone say spygate was more offensive than this I want to punch them in the mouth.
 
Lying goes hand in hand with scandal....there will be so much lying, truth telling, maybe-ing, new revelationing and cherry picking of plays from games over the years that at the end, what we'll have is a giant sh!t sandwich...and we'll all be asked to take a bite and move forward with a renewed sense of trust as ol' Roger "Matt Dillon" Goodell returns the streets of Dodge to truth, justice and the American way...jeezus, a new labor agreement..an end to acrimony...league moving forward amidst great prosperity...and now THIS bullsh!t....

the past few years a larger number of us have raised the question "what the hell is Goodell doing...trying to make this the National Flag-football League"?. Looks like this isn't as misguided a question as we all assumed. This league is most definitely moving away from the "modern gladiator" image to the "punt ,pass and kick exhibition"....It wouldn't surprise me if this idiot bans SWEARING on the field by 2014.
 
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I never said he was terrible, don't put words in my mouth. But it is a fact that he chocked at the biggest moment, where he couldn't even make a routine catch.

I know you are banned, but the reality is that it was NOT a routine catch. Only a moron with no concept of the game would claim that it was.
 
They were playing the 06 AFCCG on NFL network earlier, we had a much better D and a much younger/healthier Brady and still couldn't hold on to a lead or win the title.

Don't think Bill and Brady will ever win again, I should have enjoyed that 4 year run more than I did, never thought this would happen.

The odds are that the Pats will *not* win it again during the BB/TB era. As we've seen, it's just ridiculously hard to pull off.

But that's true, of course, for any particular team. The Packers obliterated the league this year for a dominating 15-1 regular season record and HFA throughout the playoffs. Oh well...just got destroyed at home in the playoffs by the Giants....one bad game and they're out. The Saints were a team many thought would win it all. Whoops...got beat by the 49ers in San Fran. A lot of people thought the Ravens could win it all. Oops, missed 32-yard FG and they're out. The point is that most top seeds (indicating that they are the best teams in their respective conferences) do not win the SB. It's really, really hard to do.

But the Patriots have as good a shot as anyone else, and a much better shot than the vast majority of teams. Barring a catastrophic injury like 2008, they will almost certainly be among the top teams in the AFC next year, and if they play well and catch a break or two, they could be right back in the Super Bowl next year.
 
What makes me sick, and I can't for the life of me understand what runs thru peoples minds, is the comments about this bounty hunt thing stemming almost all the way back to Williams entrance in the league.
People and players comment this isn't as bad as spygate.
Are you effing kidding me the Patriots place a camera a little closer to the field then everybody else and people want Belichick hung, Williams purposely and maliciously advocated the injuring of human beings not o man you laid him out he's hurting, no a cart hit would advocate a concussion hit a cheap low shot, just disgusting that players and fans are that backward minded.
Can anyone make sense of this?
Also if they don't at least get as penalized as the Patriots did for having a camera I'm going to be absolutely disgusted and think alot less than I already do of the state of our great game.

It is truly mindboggling the lengths opposing fans will go to justify themselves. I've heard all about how bounty hunting is part of the game, but hello, signal stealing was too! These people look like absolute idiots. And as for compromising the outcome of a game, I can think of little else that would affect the outcome of a game than knocking out the other teams' skill players.
 
While he is a stooge, it wasn't a bad pass.

It was HIGH and it was to Welker's outside shoulder, when Welker had turned inside. While it looked like a great pass, the reality is that it really wasn't even though Welker got both hands on it.

Oh. Wait. Never mind. I forgot who I am talking to.. :rolleyes:
 
And taking a page out of Nintendos book and investing in Super Mario, picking up a deep threat, a great defensive draft, really tips the side in our favor.
 
If you are hoping to resolve the debate, with the reasonable outcome being teams and their fans admit that they lost to the Pats because they were simply not as good, keep on fighting the good fight because you can expect some sizable resistance to that end state.

Quite frankly, you didn't need to write all that.

This is what you wrote originally and what I objected to:
As fans, we will say the practice is routine and was not a competitive advantage, but haters/opponents will counter with "if the practice did not offer a competitive advantage, then why break a rule to do it?" BB's 'hubris' is not an answer that resonates with NFL fans generally.

This is totally irrelevant. I'm not arguing the practice is routine or didn't offer a competitive advantage. That's totally irrelevant. Why? Because there is no rule against stealing signals. So, why bring it up? If someone wants to argue the Patriots stole signals, I'll say: YES, so what? Case closed.

Then you say there is demonstrable no way to convince people that spying didn't make the Patriots dynasty, and I say there is.

If someone says that the Patriots haven't won a Super Bowl without the benefit of spying, I point them to the Carolina Super Bowl. Pretty simple stuff.

The rest of it, whether there was any competitive advantage, etc., is all noise. It's irrelevant.
 
The simple rebuttal to that nonsense is to have them name one dynasty that actually HAS won super bowls after the first run. It can't be done other than the '94 49ers who pretty much bought that title and then spent 16 years becoming a contender again (that is IF they keep up this past season's success). The Patriots are facing what all those teams faced PLUS salary cap/free agency.

A majority of fans don't have a clue or objective bone in their body when it comes to the Patriots, so it's really no use.
 
I honestly can't understand your point. If someone says the Patriots can't win the Super Bowl without stealing signals, I say, the Patriots already won the Super Bowl without stealing signals.

What's so difficult about that?

Simply that outside Patriots Nation most people don't believe it.

You don't have to convince me; I agree with you on the facts, even if we disagree on their import to some extent.

My only point has been and remains that this will be hung around the Patriots neck for the indefinite future by people who do not or will not believe otherwise no matter how much someone tries to explain why Belichick might or might not have done what he did.

Beyond that, I'd have to repeat what I've already said, which would be a waste of time since we are clearly talking past each other now.
 
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Quite frankly, you didn't need to write all that.

This is what you wrote originally and what I objected to:

This is totally irrelevant. I'm not arguing the practice is routine or didn't offer a competitive advantage. That's totally irrelevant. Why? Because there is no rule against stealing signals. So, why bring it up? If someone wants to argue the Patriots stole signals, I'll say: YES, so what? Case closed.

Then you say there is demonstrable no way to convince people that spying didn't make the Patriots dynasty, and I say there is.

If someone says that the Patriots haven't won a Super Bowl without the benefit of spying, I point them to the Carolina Super Bowl. Pretty simple stuff.

The rest of it, whether there was any competitive advantage, etc., is all noise. It's irrelevant.

Sign stealing is not illegal, and I do not believe I even implied that from the portion you objected to and quoted. Videotaping in that location is illegal. That is what opponents seize on - the fact of a violation (the practice I referred to was videotaping from that location, not sign stealing).

You can argue your position all day, but you lack specific facts germane to the investigation that only the actual participants in the practice are and were privy to. Unless you were on the coaching or support staff and can comment on the actual facts rather than facts as you believe them to be, you are simply an advocate and fan who can prove nothing definitively (I know, you believe you can do so - I appreciate your enthusiasm). This is a logic game, nothing more. You could not testify to your theory in court because your facts are likely hearsay or an opinion lacking adequate factual basis. Referencing 2003 may be a simple solution to you, but what scrutiny were the Pats under then? None. That means it is your opinion again, and that has value here but opponents will say there was simply a continuation of the practice from 2001 until 2007 when the Pats played under scrutiny. To opposing fans and players, that is the only time the Pats were allegedly clean. Stupid, but true.

We can discuss facts and opinion and the effects of this violation all day, but I will hold to what I said originally and you are certainly convinced of your position. In my opinion, this issue ends when the Pats become a lousy team, not before then as you do not know enough about what actually happened (rather than what you have heard, read or seen in limited scope on T.V.) to convince Pats haters otherwise. This is not logic, nor is it a burden of proof. I again refer you to that 9/11 conspiracy theory illustration I made as it encapsulates this problem fairly well. If you do not grasp that illustration, then there is not much more I can say about the subject to convince you otherwise.
 
It was HIGH and it was to Welker's outside shoulder, when Welker had turned inside. While it looked like a great pass, the reality is that it really wasn't even though Welker got both hands on it.

Oh. Wait. Never mind. I forgot who I am talking to.. :rolleyes:

It hit him in both hands. Brady is renowned for throwing the ball to lead the receiver from danger, so it is nothing new.

Welkers said he catches that pass 100 times out of 100, so wait, I guess you are trying to convince the guy who didn't catch it and says it was one he catches 100 times out of 100 that he is wrong. Typical of you.

By the way, I thought you wanted me to ignore you, so why are you responding to my posts?
 
It hit him in both hands. Brady is renowned for throwing the ball to lead the receiver from danger, so it is nothing new.

Welkers said he catches that pass 100 times out of 100, so wait, I guess you are trying to convince the guy who didn't catch it and says it was one he catches 100 times out of 100 that he is wrong. Typical of you.

By the way, I thought you wanted me to ignore you, so why are you responding to my posts?

Just listen to Bill O’Brien says Welker play wasn’t a drop | ProFootballTalk but then again Nevermind Andy Johnson knows more than BOB :D
 
Sign stealing is not illegal, and I do not believe I even implied that from the portion you objected to and quoted.

It's implied by anyone who argues competitive advantage. The complaints are that the Patriots stole the opposing team's signals.

I mean, am I wrong about that?

Look, I don't want to say you're being obtuse about this, but I honestly don't understand what the difficulty is. If a fan says the Patriots haven't won since Spygate, they are implying that the Patriots used some methods to tilt the game to their favor. Obviously, using a camera does not do that (if, say, someone were taking film of cheerleader behinds) but stealing signals can do that.

Videotaping in that location is illegal. That is what opponents seize on - the fact of a violation (the practice I referred to was videotaping from that location, not sign stealing).

Not once have I ever heard a fan complain that the Patriots were filming from the sidelines as opposed to say an enclosed luxury box. Never. They complain that the Patriots stole signals. Why would they complain about the camera? Who cares?

You can argue your position all day, but you lack specific facts germane to the investigation that only the actual participants in the practice are and were privy to. Unless you were on the coaching or support staff and can comment on the actual facts rather than facts as you believe them to be, you are simply an advocate and fan who can prove nothing definitively (I know, you believe you can do so - I appreciate your enthusiasm).

I have no idea what you're even talking about here. Are you talking about how the stolen signals were used? That's been discussed ad nauseam by people who did the same exact thing. People have described precisely how they are used, going so far as to say that about 10 seconds before the snap, the QB is told to watch for a certain coverage (albeit this happens not on the day of the game, but in a future game, assuming the opponent hasn't changed signals, or furthermore, it's done to keep the opponent on their toes).

You could not testify to your theory in court because your facts are likely hearsay or an opinion lacking adequate factual basis. Referencing 2003 may be a simple solution to you, but what scrutiny were the Pats under then? None. That means it is your opinion again, and that has value here but opponents will say there was simply a continuation of the practice from 2001 until 2007 when the Pats played under scrutiny. To opposing fans and players, that is the only time the Pats were allegedly clean. Stupid, but true.

Uh, the Patriots played Carolina in 2003. They hadn't played Carolina as recently in the two previous regular seasons, and the last time they played Carolina, it had a totally different coaching staff. So, this isn't hearsay. If the Patriots were stealing signals by filming from the sidelines, if that's what they were doing wrong, we know they didn't have film on Carolina in the 2003 Super Bowl. That's a fact. Unless they were given that film by another team, or unless they were filming from the stands. But, then it wouldn't be illegal, would it?

I'll end by saying it again: the Patriots have already won a Super Bowl without the benefits of stolen signals. Try to blow a whole through that one.
 
Simply that outside Patriots Nation most people don't believe it.

You don't have to convince me; I agree with you on the facts, even if we disagree on their import to some extent.

My only point has been and remains that this will be hung around the Patriots neck for the indefinite future by people who do not or will not believe otherwise no matter how much someone tries to explain why Belichick might or might not have done what he did.

Beyond that, I'd have to repeat what I've already said, which would be a waste of time since we are clearly talking past each other now.

I'm honestly not trying to be obtuse. It's not a matter of belief. It's not a matter of convincing anyone. They didn't have film on the Carolina Panthers, not any film derived from filming illegally anyway. Why? Because they hadn't played the Panthers as recently as the prior two regular seasons, and the last time they played them, the Panthers had a totally different coaching staff.

There's nothing to debate. These are facts.
 
and the fact is .....The Jets have not won a superbowl in a long time ....and one other thing ..the JETS SUX :):rocker:
 
By the way, please tell me that because I pointed out you were wrong in another thread and after arguing you werent for 20 posts and you finally realized you were and you aren't mature enough to admit it, doesn't you are going to follow me around and make smart@ss comments on all my posts.

Whoa, lay off the Smirnoffs kid.
 
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