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Tape Break Downs on Duane Starks??

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by DaBruinz, Jan 9, 2006.

  1. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Hey Box_o_Rocks -
    Didn't you do a break down on Duane Starks? Didn't you find that he wasn't as negligent in his duties as a CB as many people here would have you believe?

    I am just curious because I keep seeing these hatred posts about Starks and it really seems misplaced... .
     
  2. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://www.targetsoft.com/patriots/denver.htm

    2nd and 4 Den 23
    Result: Pass, Smith, crossing route, 72 yds.
    Offense: 3 wide, 2 left, TE right, wide left in motion to slot left.
    Defense: 3-4, Vrabel over slot, soft coverage.
    Blocking: All 4 LBs blitz
    Warren ridden outside by RT
    Green ridden outside by LT
    Wilfork pushed left by C
    RG picks up blitzing Beisel who beats him to right in a spin move
    RB cuts McGinest coming on a delayed blitz and gets Beisel coming off his spin move
    C.Brown checked by LG
    Vrabel picked up by LG releasing off Brown.
    Coverage: Man
    The TE pulled Sanders out of the middle with a square-in below Smith
    Wide left moved to slot behind Smith, then cut underneath on the snap tying up Sante
    Geno covering the WR right who ran a square in low.
    Analysis: Denver did an awsome job of picking up the 7 man blitz with 6 blockers
    Beisel beat RG, but his spin move brought him right into the RB who was cutting Willie
    Den had 4 receivers in the pattern tying up the DBs in man
    Starks was left one-on-one against Denver’s no. 1 WR on a crossing pattern and had to play him deep in prevent coverage
    LG did an excellent job of standing Chad up and sliding smoothly over to hit Vrabel
    Blame this one on play calling, a LB on the TE would have freed up Sanders to play deep in the middle where Smith ran free.
     
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In the Oakland game, Mangini, Pees, and BB had a quick huddle right after Moss out-jumped Poole for the TD. Geno came up to cover the TE who was running free, leaving Ty one-on-one with Moss; Rodney was clear across the field.

    This play in Denver was very similar except that all four DBs were man in this coverage with four receivers out - Mangini let the D take a lot of lumps as he went through his own baptism by fire - and I believe BB let him get burned a lot so he could live and learn. Starks was the easiest target for the opposition, but I've come to think that he took one for the team to buy time for Mangini and Hobbs. I may never know.
     
  4. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Misplaced smishplaced. He was put on IR Nov 10th. The Pats record with Starks 4-4. Without Starks 6-2. And that includes the gimme loss to Miami in last game of the reg season. Is it /was it all Starks fault? Of course not, but every time you see a hi-lite with him in it (including the last game against Denver) there he is 3-7 steps behind where he needed to be.
     
  5. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1st and 10 Den 28
    Result: Pass, Lelie, post route, 55 yds.
    Offense: 3 wide, 2 left, TE right.
    Defense: 3-4, Vrabel over slot, Starks press coverage, Samuel off.
    Blocking: Wright ridden left by LT
    Wilfork ridden left by C
    Warren spun off RT when he read the naked bootleg.
    Analysis: Willie stayed home, but stayed along the LOS so Warren actually beat him downfield in pursuit of Plummer
    Both Ss jumped a short route opening up the middle of the field for Lelie who is faster then Starks.
     
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I suppose you guys prefer Gay, Poole, and Chad Scott who didn't play injured to Starks who risked the rest of his career to play injured. There is no question that Starks was very injured when he played. As I said at the time, I think we would have gone 2-6 or 3-5 without Starks. He played because he was the best we had, and the best available. Of course, we all are free to disagree with Mangini's, bb's and pioli's judgement on the matter. Starks was physically very limited in what he could do out there. IMHO, it is a credit to Mangini and to Starks that our defensive backs held together well enough to win those first four games.

    Starks will come back. IF HE IS HEALTHY, I expect him to start, be cut, or perhaps negotiate a minimum contract to be a backup (seems unlikely).

    BTW, if Starks isn't at least the nickel, I would suggest that we difinitely need to sign another corner.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2006
  7. flutie2phelan

    flutie2phelan Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    In those instances where mg and i disagree on personnel evaluation ... more often than not he has proven to be more right than i have been.

    Before and during tc, AndyJohnson often termed Starks the best CB we had. (If he has changed his mind since then, i've missed that.)

    Thus, two of the best roster mavens here extol Starks ... and Mark explains the deficiencies of his on-field performance.

    For me, then, Duane is innocent until proven guilty.
     
  8. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He did confess to having headed off the wrong route on the 72 yard play, but Rod Smith is like Troy Brown, you take one option away and he'll divert to another without breaking stride - Mangini was trying to take away the run leaving the DBs one-on-one, live and learn.
     
  9. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yep. Lets just IGNORE the fact that he was playing with a severe shoulder injury. Lets also ignore the fact that the help he was supposed to have wasn't there. Great thinking Michael. I am so glad BB is the coach because with thinking like that, we'd be the Houston Texans.
     
  10. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Risked the rest of what career? Sorry but I'm not buying. The only voice we've heard on the extent and nature of any injury is Duane's. BB isn't inclined to play players who are injured to the extent that their career's are in jeopardy. Neither is the medical staff. BB certainly admires the ones who can suck it up and play hurt, and rightly so, but there is a difference between hurt and injured in that respect. I also don't buy Mangini and BB were handcuffing this defense early, I believe they were handcuffed by the inability of many to execute fundamantally sound basic defense. As TJ noted was also the case in 2000, and again in 2002, when the coaches eventually had to dumb it down to the players comfort level until they were ready to absorb and execute more complex schemes.

    For the record, Duane's career went down the crapper the day he left the cozy confines of the mighty Ravens defense and signed for the big payday with Arizona. Why he floundered there is anyone's guess, as Rodney opined on WEEI the day after he was IR'd, but he did. Obviously he was a player BB hoped would benefit from a change of scenery and a return to a defensive oriented team with lots of veteran support. It didn't work out too well, but I got the distinct impression that Rodney realized it wasn't going to even before he went down.

    In 8 NFL seasons Starks has

    played in 94 games
    62 in 4 years in Baltimore
    32 in the 4 years thereafter

    made 25 Interceptions
    20 in 4 years in Baltimore
    5 in 4 years thereafter (and none as a Patriot)

    defensed 73 passes
    53 in 4 years in Baltimore
    20 in 4 years thereafter

    I for one sense an emerging pattern here. I also think that rather than Starks being the team guy who played injured because we needed him, BB simply was forced to play him and stick with him because there was no available alternative. They didn't want to rush Hobbs because of his potential, and Poole, Gay and others weren't available.

    Duane didn't participate in the Patriots off season conditioning program after we traded for him. He prefers to train in Miami with Shockey and the rest of the U of M training cult. BB didn't get to see much of him aside from mini camps until he appeared for TC. I think a decision on the secondary going forward will have been made before he is mandated to show up again.

    I greatly doubt he will be back. Cutting him will save $3.5M on the cap that can be better spent on another CB (and we need a few because I think they are done waiting for Poole too), or something else equally useful. I also think Duane probably dislikes playing for us almost as much as most of us dislike having to watch him play. And I got the sense his teamates are at best ambivalent about his future.
     
  11. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree he won't be back at a cap number of 5.1M, the question is whether he is willing to renegotiate downward significantly. He is at a career crossroads and may see renegotiation to resurrect his career here as his best move. I don't think it's the most likely outcome, but it could happen.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2006
  12. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Starks' play has been trending downwards for years, even during his last year in Baltimore. I don't want to put all the blame on him for those long passes, as we had other secondary issues, but did he make one play all year? I don't remember him defending any passes. Receivers were catching balls on him all year, short, medium, and long. I think Starks will be around for depth last year, but there's no way he's a starting calibre CB anymore.
     
  13. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I can't believe we're reposting all this again. Oh well since the old thread was lost I guess it's good to have for posterity. I'm well aware of his "severe shoulder injury". All this has been gone over and over and I stated last time and I state now if he (or any other player) is too injured to play effectively or whether they just don't have the intelligence and ability it doesn't matter. He wasn't getting it done and I for one feel better he is not there in the play-offs.

    Hmmm they don't seem to really be having that problem since he's been out. Hmmm I guess they just didn't like poor Duane.

    Thank you for acknowledging it.

    I'm glad too. And since he is the great BB he put Starks on IR and they are 7-2 since his absence. Looks like the Patriots to me. :D
     
  14. Lloyd_Christmas

    Lloyd_Christmas I can delete my own crap! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, I personally think the move to IR was more of a pity move than a necessity. They guy didn't live up to his billing.

    Maybe injury played a part, but he hasn't played well since Baltimore, so I tend to doubt it.

    Either way, you seem far too emotionally invested in Starks IMHO.
     
  15. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    MGT,

    I have said repeatedly, please cut Starks some slack. When we didn't have enough bodies to put on the field, he buckled up his chin strap and limped out and played even though he couldn't tackle because of the torn up shoulder; and couldn't run because of the bum leg.

    Sometimes you have to disregard your own wlefare for the good of the TEAM, and IMHO that is what Starks did. I look forward to seeing the healthy Starks next year. Obviously I consider him a T-E-A-M PLAYER.

    BTW, the 2006 Patriots are shaping up to be the strongest and greatest version of the Patriots this decade. The best is yet too come! Amazing job for belichick and Pioli
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2006

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