Ryan Wendell re-signed

[Ivan]

Good move good deal. Wendell isn't an All Pro but he is a good center, and that's a lowball price for a good starting center. I would love to see them be able to upgrade but there's only so much you can do in any free agency and the Draft is still a ways off, so addressing the position to insure that at a minimum it will be as good as it was last season is a smart move. I still want them to upgrade the C and RG positions as soon as possible but this at least stabilizes the unit while they upgrade.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them go OL high in this Draft, and i wouldn't be opposed to it either.

 

[shmessy]

What? The Patriots always have ran the ball. Passing too much has never been the problem.

You evidently did not see the second Dolphins game last year that cost them Home Field Advantage in the playoffs.

 

[Rob0729]

Field Yates speculating the numbers might be wrong.

A note on Wendell's deal - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

In looking at the NFLPA information, it was noted that Wendell has a roster bonus of $12,500 per game for each season, which would, if he played all 16 games, equal $200,000 per year. It also lists an overall roster bonus of $2 million per season.

Wendell has been extremely durable (he's played all but six offensive snaps the past two seasons), making it even less likely that the team would institute a roster bonus of that figure.

It could be that the NFLPA records listed a roster bonus of $2 million inadvertently, as the figure perhaps should have been $200,000 total, not $2 million.

If so, Wendell's contract would have a maximum value of $4.55 million over two years. That number is closer to what we might have projected for Wendell to fetch in free agency.

That makes more sense. I still think Wendell was signed for more insurance that they don't get the center they want in the draft, but if his bonus is only $200k, his money is low starter, decent back up money. He is worth keeping , even as a back up, if Yates is right about the screw up.

He was a good starter in 2012. He could have been dealing with an injury last year or something. If he rebounds and Yates is right, this is a great deal for the Pats.

 

[manxman2601]

Here's what I don't get from all the "professional" player personnel evaluators, who simply dismiss Wendell as a player.

With all the WR disruption, youth and injuries, With all the OL injuries and disruptions, and the fact we only had our top receiver available for 7 games. The Pats managed to have the 6th best passing attack in the league....NOT the worst. They also gave up 40 sacks, which is number that is much too high, but sacks aren't given up by an individual, they are given up by a unit. A unit that includes TE's and RB's as well the OL.

So in 2013 the Brady was sacked about 6% of the time, up from around 4% in 2012, when we ranked 4th in the league in passing and NO one was complaining about Wendell. In FACT, after the 2012 season Wendell was one of the big surprises. Everyone was happy with him.

Here's the point of all this. In a year when so much changed in our offense. We started 2 rookies, both of whom were hurt during the season. We lost Welker, and his replacement not only missed game, but played hurt all season. Hernandez was in jail and Gronk played only 7 games, so there so for most of the season we had very little productivity from our TE's. And, oh yeah, we lost our 3rd Down RB for several games and he played the rest of the season with a broken wrist.

End result -we were up 2% in sack percentage We threw for about 28 fewer yds/game less. With the biggest difference being 9 fewer TD's than in 2012.

The entire point of this exorcize is to point out that its kind of ludicrous to put the rather minimal declines in passing production at the feet of Ryan Wendell, when SO much else happened in that area.

Finally, and what I still can't understand, is why there are so many blanket negative assessments on a player with so little actual information. How we can pan BB for this signing, all the time knowing he has so much MORE info to base his evaluation on.

Bottom line- I'm not looking for people to change their minds on Wendell. We are all entitled to our opinions, and I can see how they could have reached theirs. I know a LOT of football, and among the most important things I know is, how much I DON'T know, compared to the guys who are doing for a living in the NFL. I'm just looking for those people who want to damn Ryan Wendell, to at LEAST acknowledge that they are making those opinions based on very limited knowledge, while BB is making his, on a LOT more.

BTW- That doesn't make him right all the time, it just makes him more LIKELY to be right.

This is spot on. I think Welker's a big factor here. Brady did not have the escape valve he had previously which means that a) he wasn't' table to get the ball out as quickly and B) without Welker and a number of receivers he'd didn't know, Brady didn't have the confidence he could dump the ball off. Both things were likely to lead to more pressure.

 

[DarrylS]

This is spot on. I think Welker's a big factor here. Brady did not have the escape valve he had previously which means that a) he wasn't' table to get the ball out as quickly and B) without Welker and a number of receivers he'd didn't know, Brady didn't have the confidence he could dump the ball off. Both things were likely to lead to more pressure.

Agree completely, coupled with our TE production falling off the ends of the earth.. what was planned and anticipated in June of 2013 was much different than what happened in September of 2013...

It seems as though they are addressing some of these needs currently, LaFell has been compared to Hernandez...

Could there be a better center for the Patriots? of course, but bringing a reliable known player is a good move.. this is a very cost effective move, and the type of move that adds depth to the roster.

 

[Miguel]

 

[Kontradiction]

Given that the Pats had the correct information to evaluate him, you didn't. The Pats had a much better idea over what's the monetary value of his worth. You didn't. Finally the Pats had the cap space and time to literally sign any of the other FA C's and didn't, all seem to indicate that the Pats evaluated Wendell to be a better center than you do.

The thing is, we as fans are free to make our personal observation, but we have to understand that we make those observations on some VERY limited information. We don't know the play call. We don't know the OL responsibilities. We certainly don't know what happens if the D changes or the QB changes the play or a myriad of OTHER elements that factor in the success or failure of an individual play.

This is what is called an appeal to authority, which you seem to do a lot. It's a logical fallacy in which the logic could be easily used to counter you. In this instance, I could say the same thing about every other team in the NFL. They had the correct information to evaluate him, you didn't. They had a much better idea over what's the monetary value of his worth. You didn't. Finally, a lot of the teams that also needed a starting center had the cap space and time to literally sign any of the other FA C's and didn't. You see why that doesn't work?

Wendell generated no reported interest on the open market for a reason. That reason is because he's a liability in interior pass protection. Believe it or not, Ken, the average fan that has played the game, knows the game, and knows good OL play when he or she sees it can make a judgement over whether Wendell is starting caliber C or not. In this instance, the vast majority of the forum was happy that the team was supposedly moving on from him going into the offseason because it was apparent that he was a weak link judging by how often he was being pushed into the backfield causing Brady to have to move in the pocket just so he can step into a throw. Other teams took advantage of that too which is, no doubt, why he generated zero reported interest in FA. But, now that the team has re-signed him, the usual suspects are claiming it's a smart move. This forum never ceases to amaze.

For some reason, last season Wendell went from one of the top rated C's in the league to one of the worst. Whatever the reasons were, the Pats FO knows much better than us, and decided that Wendell was the best of what was there and signed him. As far as the money paid, I'm sure when all is revealed his cap number is going to a lot closer to $1.5MM than to $3MM.

I keep seeing this being mentioned. Where are you, and others, getting that Wendell was a top center in 2012? He wasn't. He was just as much of a liability as he was in 2013 and I would think that the AFCCG against Baltimore would have made that abundantly clear. The *ONLY* place where I saw Wendell being mentioned as a top flight center is PFF, and we all know how flawed their rankings can be.

And to leave you feeling a bit better. I will, along with you, hope that the Pats use one of their top 4 draft picks on a young C. On of the 2 or 3 than have captured our interest on the Draft board. I would point out to you that Wendell had his finest year, after undergoing a grueling competition with Koppen and Connolly to win the job in 2012. I'd like him to feel the same kind of heat this year.

As I mentioned above, I don't agree that Wendell had a fine year in 2012, but I'm glad to see you on board with the "draft a center" idea. There's a good amount of big, physical, talented ones in this draft that should be able to hold up better against the mid-level to upper tier DT's that the Pats face, not only in the division, but also in the playoffs as well.

A worst Kontra, buddy, the Pats upgraded their interior OL depth. It now may be easier to release Connolly and his cap number or put more pressure on him to do a cut. This would be especially true if Cannon is actually moved to RG as we all expect and hope.

The contract doesn't indicate a depth move unless Wendell is cut before the season, though. It indicates that they're at least preparing for the possibility that he could start, which would be very disappointing.

I guess your ideal situaton (and mine, btw) would be to have Cannon firmly ensconced at RG, while Connolly and Wendell fight a death match to see who the starting C will be, with a gifted rookie nipping at both their heals.

Eh, I wouldn't mind Cannon at RG. But I think the team likes him as RT depth considering how dinged up Vollmer seems to get every year. I would like to see a bigger, stronger guy at center and Connolly at RG. The RG depth should be better in next year's draft.

 

[Kontradiction]

This is an appeal to authority, and it's a pet peeve of mine. Want to know why? Because if that's the stance that you're going to take, then what's the point of even discussing anything relating to personnel moves?

The Patriots have the necessary information, and therefore the correct decision is whatever they chose to do. /thread

Maybe we should have a circlejerk forum where some of you guys can compete with each other to see who most adamantly agrees with literally everything that the Patriots do, and who can most thoroughly object to any form of disagreement. Bonus points if you can actually make a case that Jake Bequette was a good pick. After all, they had all of the necessary information to draft him, and anyone who says he sucks didn't.

And, as I just showed, the flawed logic can be turned upside down on itself.

I hope it's in the contract that he needs to grow a bigger ass.

Agreed. Considering the frequency with which he gets knocked on it, he needs some extra fluff and padding to cushion his fall or he might injure his tailbone.

 

[BradyManny]

Here's what I don't get from all the "professional" player personnel evaluators, who simply dismiss Wendell as a player.

Bottom line- I'm not looking for people to change their minds on Wendell. We are all entitled to our opinions, and I can see how they could have reached theirs. I know a LOT of football, and among the most important things I know is, how much I DON'T know, compared to the guys who are doing for a living in the NFL.

Ken, football is a very complicated game - but there's nothing complicated about seeing Wendell was getting beat last season. People on this forum were pointing it out all year, and then it really killed us in the biggest game of the season.

Look, Wendell's not awful. He's perfectly good against lesser and smaller competition. But we're going to have trouble getting through better teams in January with him. He's a 7th OL, and - according to the ridiculous first set of terms which hopefully pans out as inaccurate - we've given him a deal with the potential to be on the fringe of top 10 for centers.

Enough excuse making. Maybe there weren't any better options out there, that's fine. But Wendell wasn't good enough as a starting C last year, and shouldn't be rewarded for subpar play.

Now, if Yates is speculation is right, then I'm fine with the signing. He's good enough to be interior depth.

 

[BradyManny]

See Miguel's post for image

Thanks Miguel.

That second contract is much more in line with what I was hoping Wendell would cost to re-sign.

Do you have an opinion which is more likely?

 

[patfanken]

I don't think that point was ever in dispute.. I don't get why you bring that whole 'coach knows best' to any topic. Obviously he does. If we could only discuss things we're equally informed on as the coaching staff, the board would be dead.

Thank you for at least acknowledging the fact that the FO has a great deal more knowledge in making personnel decisions that we do.

The problem is a lot of folks couch their opinions with a finality that precludes another option. A lot of the blame that is laid at Wendell's feet just might not be his, because we simply can't know all the elements involved in each play. Neither can the various ratings sites like PFF and FO. Only the staff truly knows where to pin responsibility for the success and failure of each play, and unfortunately we are never going to get privy to that data. (but boy, wouldn't it would be great if we did )

Wendell is never injured. He does very well run blocking. Brady seems to believe he is a good pass blocker. He trusts him a lot. Doesn't change the fact that Wendell hasn't handled good DTs well. Pro Football Focus blamed Wendell for six sacks, more than any other lineman in the NFL, last season. That 'stat' can be considered slightly to highly subjective.

I've always view Wendell as a competent starting C in the NFL. A guy who is undersized, but an asset to the running game. He's also a guy who has physical limitations that make him vulnerable to certain match ups in the passing game.

What a shock. He isn't perfect and like over 95% of the league he has limitations. He won't win every one of his match ups. I've also never questioned that Wendell's a guy who you'd like to upgrade if the opportunity came around. But I've also never subscribed much to the "grass is always greener/everybody is better than our guy" metality who felt every well over 30 yr old FA center was better than Wendell. If Mack had truly been an UFA, then I would have loved to have pursued him. But he wasn't.

So while the draft is our best hope to upgrade the position, it would be a huge risk to entrust the starting C job to a rookie and hope for the best, without having a solid plan B. Even if we were lucky enough to draft a guy who turned out to be a physical upgrade, it would be a lot to ask a rookie to come in and start right away.

But you have to look at the whole picture. Even if PFF is correct, The Pats attempted 627 passes last year. That's a failure rate of less than 1%. Even if you expand the evaluation to QB hits and hurries, you'd still have a success rate of over 90%. So the impression some are giving that every time TB drops back he's under duress, is much overblown. Our OL didn't suck

I can understand if someone believes Wendell is getting too much or all of the blame. Anyone remember Geno Atkins running right by an oblivious Dan Connelly to absolutely crush Brady? That wasn't a receivers fault either.

But it could have been a bad line call by the C or QB. OR it could have been the fault of a "clueless Connolly" that's my point. We don't know.

The interior OL sucked last year. Too many red zone trips ended with Brady getting rid of the ball too fast because of pressure down the middle.

I believe that the youth of our wide outs, their various injuries, and the lack of a TE option were a much bigger part of our red zone failures, than the OL.

Sticky, here what I think we all agree on. We'd like to improve the interior OL physicality and size. That could be done quite easily within the roster by simply moving Cannon down to RG and sliding Connolly back to C. If the 340lb Cannon was an adequate pass blocker at OT, he'd be a rock at G. Connolly adds some more bulk to the C slot, where he thrived next to Brian Waters in 2011.

But regardless of what I think, Wendell give the Pats the time to develop a better alternative to the C position, ideally while he and Connolly have a Texas Death Match to see who will end up being the starting C, with the winner getting to keep his job.

 

[Kontradiction]

Just so we're clear. Saying that BB might know what he is doing is an invalid argument because it's "an appeal to authority" but intimating in an argument that you, the anonymous name in a fan forum, knows more than BB is a perfectly reasonable and valid argument. I'd rather appeal to authority in this instance than appeal to a lack of authority.

It's an invalid argument because you don't provide anything of substance other than "BB has infinitely more info than you". It's a logical fallacy and if that's always assumed to be the case then it makes conversation about any move, and thus this forum, moot. I just showed how easily that argument could be turned around on it's head to essentially defeat the whole point of debate about the topic, then provided a reason for why this signing, if he earns all the reported money, doesn't make sense in multiple ways...

1. His struggles during the last two seasons.

2. His obvious struggles against Ngata, Cody, and Knighton our last two playoff losses.

3. The complete lack of interest in him during FA even though there are several teams on the market that can use a starting caliber center.

There is nothing wrong with saying that BB has access to more information than us and might actually know what he's doing. Don't try to disparage that argument by trying to invalidate it like an internet NazI (self-ironic Godwin's law reference FTW!).

Sure there is. It's a logical fallacy that has no place in a debate. Usually I don't call a poster out on an appeal to authority if the poster that is responding to me backs it up with something of substance, but Ken didn't do that.

Opinions on a fan forum of all types are valid. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't try to win yours by trying to invalidate the opinions of others.

It doesn't matter if it's a football fan forum or if it's in a congressional hearing. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy. It has no place in a debate. Ken's logic on that (or lack thereof) is akin to someone saying "The United States should just let Israel invade Palestine. We can be sure that it won't start World War 3 because the federal government has infinite more info on the matter than we do". Come on, man. You know better than this.

 

[BradyManny]

But regardless of what I think, Wendell give the Pats the time to develop a better alternative to the C position, ideally while he and Connolly have a Texas Death Match to see who will end up being the starting C, with the winner getting to keep his job.

It all depends on the contract for me now.

With a $2M roster bonus, that is too expensive for depth @ the position. If Yates' recent post is right, and if Miguel's second contract above is the one we handed out, it's a different story.

 

[Don Kipines]

Run blocking and pass blocking are not the same thing. Wendell would be all-pro if that newfangled forward pass weren't a thing.

Yes, okay, we get it, Wendell struggled, especially last year, with his pass-blocking.

But the Pats had him playing center in 2012 when they had another one of their historically-good passing seasons. Maybe he isn't the best pass-blocker in the world, but if they could put up such great numbers with him as the starter, he can't be that bad.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I hope that they draft one of the top 3 centers available this year. Then let the competition begin.

 

[manxman2601]

It's an invalid argument because you don't provide anything of substance other than "BB has infinitely more info than you". It's a logical fallacy and if that's always assumed to be the case then it makes conversation about any move, and thus this forum, moot. I just showed how easily that argument could be turned around on it's head to essentially defeat the whole point of debate about the topic, then provided a reason for why this signing, if he earns all the reported money, doesn't make sense in multiple ways...

1. His struggles during the last two seasons.

2. His obvious struggles against Ngata, Cody, and Knighton our last two playoff losses.

3. The complete lack of interest in him during FA even though there are several teams on the market that can use a starting caliber center.



Sure there is. It's a logical fallacy that has no place in a debate. Usually I don't call a poster out on an appeal to authority if the poster that is responding to me backs it up with something of substance, but Ken didn't do that.



It doesn't matter if it's a football fan forum or if it's in a congressional hearing. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy. It has no place in a debate. Ken's logic on that (or lack thereof) is akin to someone saying "The United States should just let Israel invade Palestine. We can be sure that it won't start World War 3 because the federal government has infinite more info on the matter than we do". Come on, man. You know better than this.

I'm not getting involved in this (I deleted the post you are referring to). BB clearly knows more about the situation than the rest of us so I'm fine with what he's done.

 

[BradyManny]

BB clearly knows more about the situation than the rest of us so I'm fine with what he's done.

This is true, and is normally consolation in the rare instances the team makes a move I don't agree with.

But I find the $8M contract so egregious that IBBWT does not bridge the gap between where I evaluate Wendell and the contract he was purportedly given.

It could turn out the contract is worth half that, in which case I'd feel justified in my freaking out, and relieved Belichick's evaluation of Wendell is more in-line with my own.

 

[BradyManny]

Maybe he isn't the best pass-blocker in the world, but if they could put up such great numbers with him as the starter, he can't be that bad.

The question then should be how good could the offense be with a beast at Center instead of Wendell?

Keep Wendell as backup, draft a C. It's fine. Just don't pay the guy 4M AAV while you do it. 2M I can stomach. Let's wait for all the details.

 

[Miguel]

Thanks Miguel.

That second contract is much more in line with what I was hoping Wendell would cost to re-sign.

Do you have an opinion which is more likely?

The latter contract. It is more in line with the Patriots modus operandi.

 

[Brady6]

Wendell is still relatively young; having just turned 28 on 3/4/14 and this will be his third season as a full time starter in the NFL. He has exceled as a run blocker in each of his first two seasons as a starter, but has struggled against bigger stronger defensive tackles in pass protection. He needs to improve in pass protection and if he can do that he would actually be one of the best centers in the NFL, the question is whether or not he can make the improvements needed.

I do not think the Patriots made a bad decision resigning Wendell; I have been in the minority all year of people who were for Wendell returning. At the very least, Wendell is a player who can provide depth at both center and guard, and with his signing, I expect that Connolly will be asked to restructure or be released.